All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg - E41: Vaccine policy, Big Tech, DeepMind's latest breakthrough, wealth creation, opportunity & more

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sacks, I am going to give you $1,000 each to the charity of

your choice for every correct answer. Fuck it. 10,000. But you

have to answer you have to answer in real time and you

can’t fuck around. Okay. No stalling. This is this is to any

charity chooses included Tucker Carlson 2024. Okay, let’s go to

give the answers right away. You cannot fucking think about this.

Here we go. 321. First, middle and last name of your children

and their birthdays. Go.

First of all,

time already. No,

okay, go do you know you can beat these out? Nick? Go ahead.

Go. So is January.

No here. What’s the






And then

little guy, little man.

You’re trying to stop me with a little guy.

He was born October

of 2016.

All right, good.

That was a struggle. I got it. I got there. He got there. That’s

all that matters is he got there. It is. So you’re gonna

give that you’re gonna give 10 grand. Yeah, 10 grand each to

10 grand each. So 30 grand 30 grand to Tucker Carlson for

President DeSantis 2024.

I said charity asshole.

Hey, everybody. Hey, everybody. Welcome to your favorite

podcast, the all in podcast where we talk about the economy,

technology, politics, and, well, basically anything that’s in the

news. With us today, again, the Queen of quinoa himself, David

Friedberg. How are you doing, David? I’m hanging in there

today. All right, people are looking for the dog. Where’s the

dog? Monty? He’s sitting here on the floor. Monty. Come on.

Come here. Come on, Monty. All right. And from a random palace

somewhere in the world. The dictator himself Chamath

Palihapitiya. How you doing? See?

I’m doing great. You know, I got another dog.

While you were in Italy.

I went to the breeder that I got Aki from and she had a three

year old that was not really, you know, ever gonna become a

breeding dog or whatever. So I adopted the three year old. He

has a parasite. So he’s been pooing everywhere, everywhere.

That’s great information for the cold over the all over the

castle, all over the castle. Fantastic. liquid poop, by the

way. But we finally diagnosed it today. And he’s going to the to

the vet to get some liquids and to get the parasite expunged

from his body.

Okay, thank you for that information. I don’t know where

is you? Nobody cares. How you were doing. I thought you were

just gonna say great. I didn’t know we were gonna go straight

to diarrhea.

We got a new dog to you did. It’s awesome. It’s been kind of

a disaster. The kids were like that. We found this like, I

think, you know, golden, that is really calm. You know, like,

she’s just super low energy and calm. It’s like perfect for us.

I’m like, I don’t know. I think that’s just like the puppies

kind of asleep, you know, like, it’s gonna wake up. They’re

like, No, no, no, no, this is like a special dog. It’s like

really well behaved, whatever. So anyway, we get it. Sure

enough, like, a week later, the puppy wakes up. And she’s eating

everything in the house destroying everything. It’s

Yeah, so now we’re

with that dog number two or three for you.

It’s dog two with the dog one was a rescue dog who’s great. So

dog number two is now getting trained.

All right, David Sacks is with us, of course, the Raymond

himself, and in related dog stories, I put all the girls to

bed and then I hear screaming, I get up, I run outside,

literally, the new bulldog who’s nine months old Maximus went on,

you know, one of his running fits, one of my daughters falls

out of bed, gets like a bruise on her, like lower back, and

she’s wailing. The other daughter feels terrible about

it. And then the dog decides that he is going to projectile

vomit everywhere. All at the same time. You guys have had

these moments where like, it’s just complete utter chaos. It’s

chaos, chaos, chaos, it’s cat dogs plus kids equals chaos. So

but would any of us have it any other way? I love the combo of

dogs and kids. It’s just the best. It’s pretty great. It’s

dogs are amazing. Especially when you bring in a new dog or a

puppy into the house. It’s chaos, but it’s a really

beautiful chaos.

Well, you know what I think also is like, think about how

overrated everything in life is people like, Oh my god, this

place with the pasta in Italy, it’s the greatest life changing

thing. And all this movie was incredible. It’s the best movie

ever made. And it’s never the best movie ever made or the best

past ever. It’s great or whatever. But I think kids and

dogs are underrated. universally

have as many kids as you can possibly biologically have and

can economically afford is my one opinion. And the more dogs

the better.

I love dogs. Yeah. All right. I think we should start with the

COVID cases, because this is impacting everything from the

economy, to people’s decisions, touching on people’s freedoms.

And it’s hard to know where to start here. But I think facts

are always a good place to start. Here in the United

States, we had gotten COVID cases, you know, to that 12,000

a day average, it was pretty amazing. And it looked like it

was going to go straight down smooth sailing. And we had had

deaths down at around, I saw some seven day averages, where

we were at 150 200. Now, the weekends are kind of weird, in

terms of reporting, but the seven day average today is at

  1. In other words, it’s been flat for a month when you do

this. And this is according to the New York Times statistics

and Google, you can search for Google, and you’ll find these

have some great data that they’ll just put right in the

search result. However, cases have gone from this 1215 k a day

average, soaring in just 30 days to 62,000 a day and a seven day

average of 40,000. So we’re basically tripled the number of

cases, cases trail traditionally deaths by something in the

neighborhood of 10 days. I think I’m correct, Friedberg.

So what do you think is actually going to happen here? We’re

going to we’re going to get up to 10 100,000 200,000 cases a

day, and maybe double the number of deaths from the people who

are not vaccinated? Yeah, you know, the current logic on this

is that there will be because of the number of people that are

generally infected and are spreading what is now an even

more infectious variant of COVID. The people that are not

vaccinated are starting to get it at a higher rate. And that’s

where the deaths are starting to come from. So yeah, we will see

deaths climb. And I think like we talked about last time, we’re

starting to see even Gavin did an interview yesterday in

California talking about how, you know, there it’s on the

table that we may go back to certain restrictions, behavioral

restrictions, mask mandates, etc. So there’s going to be a

set of reactions. And I think as we talked about last time, we

saw the market start to react to the potential of that on Monday.

And then very interestingly, kind of reverse course, Tuesday

and everything came back when everyone was freaked out on

Monday after they saw the weekend’s data, which showed

that cases are climbing like crazy in the US. But I think the

conventional wisdom is not that many people are going to die.

Therefore, we’re not going to see, you know, political

leaders, force restrictions that are kind of going to damage the

economy. And we’re going to start to walk what I think

Israel’s calling the golden line, which is balancing the

economy with the the health of the citizenry. So. So, you

know, we’ll see, it’s going to come down to policy. But I think

from a desk perspective, there will absolutely be a rise in

deaths now as unvaccinated people are the going to be the

bulk of those deaths. And, and this thing is spreading again

amongst people that haven’t been vaccinated.

Well, and then sacks, this becomes now a great Rorschach

test of what do you see in this data? And in this moment,

because it’s a pandemic, as many people are saying, now, I think

this is becoming the meme or the catchphrase, it’s a pandemic of

the unvaccinated. So people have chosen to opt into this

pandemic, and then a group of us have chosen to not be part of

it, you were part of it, even as a vaccinated person, but you’re

feeling great. You’re back to 100%. So what do you think

should happen in terms of closings, or shutdowns, or mask

mandates? What’s your take on the pandemic of the


Well, I think we need to differentiate between public

policy and private behavior. So, you know, after last week’s

episode, where I said, you know, Delta variants real, there’s

gonna be a huge spike in cases. Unfortunately, I thought we had

this thing whipped, you know, a few weeks ago, now, I think the

data is showing something different. You know, everyone,

there’s a lot of commenters saying, sacks, you’ve turned,

you’ve been blue pilled. No, it’s, you know, I think there’s

a difference between acknowledging what’s going on,

and then having the the policy conversation around it. I think

the difference now from last year, I mean, there’s a couple

of things. One is that we do have vaccines. So I think for

most people getting vaccinated will take the worst risks off

the table. The other is we know so much more about what works

and what doesn’t work. And so lockdowns don’t work. If you

know, if they ever did, they, they, they, we now know, looking

at from what different states did last year, that they don’t

make a difference. So there’s no reason to go back to that

policy. But also, I mean, I would even say on mass, it

should be

well, do we know that? I mean, is that I think so sure of that?

Yeah, I think so. Because the thing that the government

planners never take into account is that private citizens are

going to adjust their behavior in both directions. So in

Florida, they didn’t have mandates, but people who are at

risk took, you know, extreme precautions, they would either

lock themselves down or be very fastidious about wearing a high

quality mask. By contrast, in California, we had the most

severe lockdowns, but they were never really feasible. So

there’s 10 pages of exceptions, people didn’t really abide by

them. And then on top of it, you know, you have all these mass

mandates. But if somebody wears like a sock, loosely affixed to

their face, does that really protect them? You know, so, you

know, people, if they’re, if they’re not interested in

complying with these mandates, they do it in a half hearted

way. I’m not convinced that the mandates work in the first

place. So the smart thing to do here is just to have

recommendations and let private citizens decide what their

response is going to be. We know now so much more about the risks

that we all face than we did a year ago. And so just let

private citizens decide. I mean, I’d even say on on

vaccines, I mean, look, I’m pro vax, I don’t really understand

where the anti vax people are coming from. But I’m kind of

done wasting my breath trying to convince people to get

vaccinated. You know, on this show, who don’t want to get

vaccinated, you know, if they don’t want to send those doses

to the developing world, where they’re desperate for them.

Let me ask you, Chamath, do you do you agree with saxes

position that listen, citizens are just going to have to make

their own decision here, leave everything open. And let’s not

have the economy collapse again. And people, people are

smart enough to make their own decision. And is this framing of

this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, the correct

framing? Wow, I’m really of two minds. There’s there’s the part

of me that says that you have to give people the right to make

their own decision. The problem is that in this specific case,

there’s so much transmissibility. And as a

result of that, how this thing can mutate, that I think that

public health has to take a priority over any individual

individuals rights in this very specific narrow, narrow case,

because the delta variant is so transmission, transmissible,

people are going to have to lose some freedoms is one of those

showing a vaccine card when you go to an arena that you wouldn’t

need that if everybody was vaccinated, or you had to go

through a lot of hoops to be unvaccinated as an example. I

mean, and the reason is because the longer you allow this thing

to float around in the Petri dish of the unvaccinated, you’re

increasing everybody’s risk. And this is where I think individual

freedoms as long as as a trample on collective freedom, then I

think live and let live. But I think on this specific issue, I

think that it’s it’s it’s unconscionable to be in a

situation where we are fighting basically a time function, where

at a certain amount of time, you’re going to have a variant

that that is, you know, basically will overcome all the

vaccines we have will kill enormous numbers of people,

including the vaccinated will literally shut the economy down.

And that’s a probabilistic event now. And I don’t like the fact

that I’m susceptible to that because of a bunch of people who

frankly, aren’t doing it for medical or religious reasons.

They’re just watching Fox News and just spouting off.

I agree that we’re at risk there. But we’re also at risk

from accident and vaccinated people in the rest of the world.

So Delta variant came from India, the lambda variant, I

think the wrong came from Peru. I mean, the fact of the matter

is unvaccinated people everywhere are potential Petri

dish for the virus. So I’d rather I mean, this is why we

need to send those unused doses that by the way, are at risk of

expiring. We now I mean, there was a tweet about this recently,

there’s huge stockpiles of vaccine in the US are going to

waste right now. We should ship those anywhere in the world that

people are ready to get back

specifically to Mexico and Canada and Canada’s I think this

month going to even though we got off to a massive headstart

going to eclipse us in terms of the percentage of accident, let

me ask it more pointedly, should a teacher should teachers

be public school teachers be forced to be vaccinated? Should

you be forced to have a vaccine card to get on public

transportation, airplanes, or, you know, take buses, you know,

long haul buses, long haul trains. And then third, should

you be forced to show a vaccine card to get on to go to sporting

events or concerts, let’s go through those three. So your

personal freedom ends, you’re going to be forced if you want

to go to group behaviors, if you want to participate in a public

construct, if you want to consume a public resource, or if

you want to provide a publicly funded good, then it’s the

broader public’s rights that are superior to your individual

rights. Otherwise, work at a charter school where it’s not

required, watch the fucking concert from home, or drive your

car, use a bicycle or take an Uber.

The end. So what do you think? And then Freeberg?

So I understand that argument, I would differentiate between

public and private requirements, because I don’t like the idea of

giving government the power to forcibly stick a needle in your

arm. So

what you’re not said you could stay home where you could take

your bicycle. Sure. So is that a reasonable that you don’t get to

go to a Warriors game because you’re unvaccinated?

Yeah, I think you know, the Warriors stadium is privately

owned, the team is private. So I think the I think that private

companies should be able to set up their own rules for the

benefit of their employees and

customers about airlines, because that is, you know, a

gate. It’s, there’s a limited number of them. Yeah, I think

so. Airlines should be able to force it. Now, what about school


Should they can’t they can’t force it, but they can set the

requirements for you to board their planes.

You know, okay, now, what about public schools? Should, if

let’s do teachers and students? Should teachers be forced to get

a vaccine if they want to come in? Because you said if they

don’t come to work in the fall on a couple episodes back,

you’re fired?

Why when they want to get a vaccine, the whole debate with

the teachers unions was that they wanted to be at the front

of the line for vaccines, which isn’t an issue anymore, because

we have so many. So I don’t think that’s a serious issue.

Now requiring the kids to get vaccinated is that that would be

the real policy question. And

well, let’s tackle both. Should teachers be forced to get the

vaccine? Yes or no,

you just kind of brushed over? Yeah, you’ve had to force a

force. No, I mean, I think it’s important to just to just, you

know, pinpoint this, like, forcing teachers to get

vaccinated in order to, you know, work at the school. I just

want to highlight the precedent it sets, right, which is, you

know, you just said you don’t want the government to tell

people that they have to go get a shot in their arm. If someone

has a personal choice, that they don’t want to get that

shot. Does that mean then that they, you know, should lose

their job as a public servant?

Well, no, I mean, no, I’m saying that, look, I think that

deal, but like, if there’s one or two teachers that say, you

know what, it is a big deal to me, I have a different I have a

set of reasons why I don’t want to

get shot. I think those teachers, that’s an assumption

of risk. I mean, if they’ve decided they’re going to assume

the risk, then you know, don’t come crying to us when they get

sick. Well, the

argument is that was your choice, the vector of exposure,

right, that they could potentially Petri dishes as

they could be that they could they could be the vector that

gets kids sick.

In all of these situations, there’s an always a very obvious

and justifiable exemption for religious and medical reasons to

not be vaccinated, not just for this, but for anything else. So

I struggle to understand why all of a sudden people who don’t

have a fucking clue about science are all of a sudden,

these armchair scientists who can judge whether or not a

vaccine is appropriate for them, where they probably already

gave vaccines of all other kinds to their kids and themselves.

They probably take all other kinds of advice from doctors.

But on this one specific issue, they narrowly say, you know

what, I’m an expert enough, because I’m watching this

television show, I’ve made a decision that to me makes no


Yeah, look, I actually agree with you. I’m in the camp of

that everybody barring some, you know, highly specific medical

condition that renders you ineligible should be getting

vaccinated. So I agree with you about what the right answer is.

But I do think that when it comes to government, it’s it’s a

more complicated question about how much power you give to

government to force people to engage in, you know, behavior

they don’t want to engage in.

Can you

these are real question private organizations are different,

we’ll agree on private organizations, but we do have to

make some decisions on public transportation. And we do have

to make decisions about teachers, and we’re going to

have to make decisions on students. So could you bench the

teachers who or otherwise penalize them who are not

vaccinated? You know, there are sometimes where you know, a cop

or a teacher is put in a, you know, not in the classroom, not

on the beat for whatever reasons, sometimes disciplinary,

but for other reasons, could you just say, Listen, if you’re not

going to get vaccinated, you’re going to not be in the classroom,

you’re not going to you’ll be a remote teacher, and we’re just

going to create two classes here.

I don’t think I don’t think there are many teachers who

don’t want to get vaccinated. But but I look, I think the

virus is everywhere. Now, it’s just endemic. And so to single

out like one particular group and say, you’re gonna put you

down on your opinion. So you’re saying teachers should not be


I’m saying that, I mean, if they work at a private school, the

private school could definitely require it.

We’re talking about public only. Now we all agree on private.

Look, I think it’s a really down on it. Yeah,

I think it’s a really complicated question. Because I

think there are clear public health benefits to everyone

getting vaccinated by also don’t really like empowering

government to force you. Because, look, it’s like

everything else, the government may be right in this particular

case, but what else is it going to do with that power? And you

know, I don’t like giving government that power. So look,

it’s a complicated question. I don’t you know, it’s not. I

would, I would probably err on the side of not letting

government force people to do it. But But But look, I think

it’s a close call. I do think it’s a close call.

Chamath forced the teachers to get vaccinated or not.

Yes. And the reason is because these kids are already being

left behind, even when school is functioning normally. And you

can see it in the test scores, you can see it in our readiness,

you can see it in our ability to actually do the jobs that are

required. We are not doing what we need to do as it is in the

absence of a pandemic. And now you introduce a reason for folks

to basically check out and not appear. What do you guys guess

how many years were lost in these 15 months when kids were

at home? I would say not 15 months. No, it’s more. Two

years, two and a half years, three years.

Depending on what grade they are. What did the Did your kids

miss graduation? Did they miss senior prom? Did they miss their

SATs? I mean, what did they miss in terms of

Yeah, I mean, Chamath Chamath is a good point, which is that if

that that when government is the employer, requiring it on their

employees, because it leads to better outcomes for that

institution, that is a little different than government just

mandating that you Jason Kalkan as private citizen have to go

get a shot in your arm, right? I mean, so there is a slight

difference there, like military, for instance, right? The

military probably wants to vaccinate everybody, so that if

they need to be ready for a combat situation, they’re not

like, you know, incapacitated by an outbreak of COVID. Right. So

I can, I think they’re, you know, we’re getting into shades

of gray here from a public policy perspective. You know, I

don’t want teachers missing school because, you know, for

weeks at a time because they didn’t do the obvious thing

getting the COVID vaccine. So look, I think there are some

really good public policy arguments there. But I think

again, the, the one place where I’d say government is clearly

overstepping is if they just said, Listen, you private

citizen, not an employee of the government has to go get

vaccinated. As much as I would like everyone to get vaccinated.

I don’t want to give government that kind of power.

President Biden could legally require military members to get

vaccinated. But so far, he has declined to do so July 9, New

York Times. Friedberg, where do you stand on this? Chamath says

he’s all in your teacher, you get vaccinated at the end. sax

is kind of close, but is a little concerned. What do you

say, Friedberg?

I mean, another way to frame it is that there’s a new

qualification for a job, like, you know, there’s qualification

to be in the military, you have to have certain physical

capabilities. Jason, I don’t know if you would qualify. I

don’t think I would. I don’t think I can be like,

for totally different reasons. Your inability to fight or throw

a punch would be no, maybe J Cal could eat the enemy. I would be

great in the military. I’m

he’d be like Clemenza. He’d be cooking the meatballs or


Joker. Private.

There’s the I think the reason there’s sensitivity to it is

because there are existing teachers in jobs. And then

you’re telling them that in order to keep your job, you have

to go get a vaccine. Now, exactly. If we were to have zero

teachers today, and we were starting a public school system

from scratch. And you said here’s one of the qualifying

criteria to be a school teacher, you have to have an education

degree, you have to have maybe a master’s degree in education,

you have to have appropriate qualifications and training and

certification. Oh, and by the way, you also have to have a

vaccine. If that becomes a criteria, I think people find it

less offensive. It’s the fact that we are now saying that

there are people that are being told that you have to go get a

shot in order to keep your job. And that’s the complicating

thing that I think people are trying to wade through. I don’t

have I don’t think that if you were to say like, look, it’s

obvious that the qualifying criteria to be in the military

is you have to be able to run and do push ups or whatever the

criteria might be. But if you impose that on people that were

already in the military, and then you’re going to kick a

bunch of them out, people would be up in arms about it.

If you had a BMI requirement,

yeah. And that’s the concern I think that arises with, you

know, imposing these kind of, you know, personal body

criteria, upon, you know, specific jobs when people are

already employed in that job. And it’s there’s, there’s

absolutely no answer, right? Like, if you’re going to do it,

you’re gonna have incredible backlash and trouble and pain.

And if you were to, and we’re not in a circumstance where we

can build these organizations and these institutions from


look, there’s a lot of social issues where, you know,

particularly on the liberal side, people do not want the

government prohibiting them from getting certain medical

procedures, right? Well, you know, I’d say it’s even more

invasive talking about people transitioning, or, you know, or

the issue of abortion, you know, very hot button social

issues where people are saying, the government should not have

the right to legislate. What happens with what happens with

all treatments? Yeah, what happens with my body, right?

Well, force it, you know, giving government the power to

forcibly inject you with something is, you know, that is

that is invasive. And so I do think there are like rights

implications to that.

But I want to be very clear. If you want the services that are

offered to you by the collective whole, if you want to consume

and be a net drag on the resources that we share, then

you need to sign up for the compact that we all sign up for

that’s, that’s my overarching argument. The thing with

abortion where I’m on the other side of the issue, just to be

very clear is like, it is a woman’s body. I don’t think I

have any right to dictate what she does. I don’t understand

what she goes through. I don’t understand what situation she’s

in. I don’t think I have the judgment to do that. It shouldn’t

have an impact on the collective and her decision to carry or not

carry a baby doesn’t theoretically come with a

probabilistic chance that I may die. It does not. Right. But

when you choose to not get vaccinated to a highly

transmissible respiratory disease that could kill me or

mutate, yeah, I’m not saying that I have a say. But I do

think I should have a say if you’re then all of a sudden

going to consume the same resources that I consume, where

I’ve signed up to that compact for public health.

Based on all this, here’s where I come to what if we gave

teachers an off ramp, listen, if you you need to be vaccinated to

be in the classroom. If not, you’re going to get a one year

buyout or whatever one month or two months for every year of

service. So if you’ve been with us for 20 years, you can get 20

months of pay. And or you could say if the virus is spreading at

under this rate, in other words, you know, we’ve got under 1% of

the population infected or whatever the the criteria is,

then you can come to work in the classroom. But if this thing is

spreading, you’re out. And that’s it. And there’s an off

ramp here, to David’s point,

unless there’s a narrow, like, look, I do think you can be a

conscientious objector for legitimate reasons. Again, like

we have these very specific definitions for religious or for

health specific reasons that you that you don’t get vaccinated. I

think those should be respected. It’s not that cohort of people

we’re talking about. It’s everybody else that right now

wants to not think for themselves. And as a result, put

everybody else and themselves in danger.

Yeah, I think the most compelling part of your argument

schmoth is that we’re is the health externality, right? That

that that each person’s decision does have an impact on whether

they could be transmitting, you know, multiplicative, contagious

particles. And this is why I was in favor of a mass mandate at

the beginning of the pandemic is, it’s not just an individual

decision, your your choice actually does affect whether

other people get sick. So you know, this is why I do think it

also wasn’t very invasive, correct? sacks. I mean, was your

other point? Yes, exactly. Potentially high benefit for

very low cost. I think we’re but but but the thing that maybe I

didn’t necessarily take into consideration is, you know,

people complied in such a half hearted way. I mean, I do think

the mass makes a difference. If it’s an N 95 quality mask that

you put on correctly, right. But when people just strap a sock to

their face is loosely fitting, and they don’t give a shit. I

mean, does that really make a difference? I mean, I’m very

skeptical. Let me ask you a question, sacks. And then we’ll

go to freeberg. And then we’ll flip to the next topic. If we

were on our third pandemic, or let’s God forbid, a second

pandemic starts a totally different one, you know, Ebola

type or something. And we’re on the fifth variant and people are

dying at a higher rate. Does your calculus change sacks?

Because because the the downsides that the costs of you

know, not not imposing those more restrictive regulations

goes up considerably. I mean, definitely my thinking today is

highly influenced by the fact that that if you’re vaccinated,

you’re call it 95% likely to be taking the most deadly or

serious risks off the table. And so the people who are choosing

not to get vaccinated are essentially assuming the risk,

you know, it’s like, it’s like smoking in a way where, when I

made the movie thing for smoking, Christopher Buckley

told me, you know, he’s the author of the book. And he said,

Look, there’s something uniquely American about defending

people’s right to do something that’s manifestly harmful,

right? The main character, and thank you for smoking as a

spokesman for big tobacco, and he’s engaging in political spin.

But his argument is, look, people have the right to engage

in this behavior, even if it is known to be harmful to them.

Maybe America is the only place in the world where people buy

into arguments like that. But I do. I you know, look, that is

that is, that’s freedom is letting people do stupid

things, you know, and, and so we have to weigh the benefits of

freedom against the against the costs. And

by the way, sorry, can I just say something? Smoking is a

perfect example. Because as you know, there is now a non trivial

amount of law around the liability related to individuals

that enabled secondhand smoke, both the smoker, but also other

things, condo boards, other places where all of a sudden,

you didn’t choose to fucking have, you know, tar and

nicotine, right? bartenders, my dad worked in bars where people

it was a cloud of smoke for 30 years, 30 years, right? They

told him he was essentially a smoker. It’s not it’s not just

the detrimental activity at the time. Remember, we’ve socialized

the cost of treatment for people through public health systems.

And because of that, it’s not just an individual’s choice. If

there is a socialized cost for everyone that’s now got to pay

the price,

but the government is so omnipresent, all of our lives,

there’s always going to be a social cost to any bad choice

people make. And to Tomas point, I mean, everybody uses

government services to some degree. So that alone can’t be

the reason I do agree that the

behavior, David, what about people speeding on highways at

125 miles an hour? Like, it’s illegal.

That’s illegal. But But I think I think your mouth is right that

the smoking example is a good one. Because we do regulate

secondhand smoke, because there’s an externality, there’s

a health externality to everybody else. If you smoke in

a public place. And so we restrict that. But we don’t make

smoking illegal. We don’t stop you from doing it in your own

homes, or in private places. And the argument is, listen, if you

want to do something that’s harmful, primarily to you,

that’s your choice as an American. You know, and I know

people, a lot of people don’t like that. Actually, this is a

this, I posted a tweet that I got

just because an opinion is wrong doesn’t mean it should be

censored. Just because the behavior is harmful doesn’t

mean it should be prohibited. Just because something is

beneficial doesn’t mean it should be required. Right? It’s

a completely reasonable tweet.

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty inoffensive anodyne tweet, just

reminding people that just because, again, something is

positive doesn’t mean you force people to do it. And just

because some behavior is harmful, you don’t you don’t

ban it. I think smoking is a great example of that, right? We

let people engage in behavior that’s harmful to them, because

freedom is a value in and of itself. For this, I was attacked

as a selfish asshole, by, by this other pod. And I really


Kara Swisher and Professor Koltakes.

Professor what?

Koltakes, that literally made an index of all of Professor G’s,

you know, takes that Macy’s would be incredible and Amazon

would lose its money and yada yada. He’s kind of obsessed with

you too, Chamath Prof. G. Yeah, who just got a show canceled on

Bloomberg, but they were a little Kara Swisher was called

sacks and asshole.

Well triggered, it was bizarre that they would get so triggered

by this inoffensive tweet. But I think what you see here is an

example of the way that the woke mind thinks, which is

well, hold on, I don’t think Kara’s woke.

Are you kidding me? She’s like, she’s like the Madame du Farge

or the woke revolution. She’s

meeting the Farge.

Madame du Farge was this character in the French

Revolution who had knit the names of the next person to be

guillotined. And she was, you know, one of the leaders of the

sans culottes. No, look, Kara is constantly ginning up the mob to

try and, you know, guillotine some non known non woke person.

I don’t think that that’s true. That’s true. I think she’s kind

of moderate. You’re trying to you’re trying to curry favor

with her. So you don’t know.

No, no, she I mean, she did get it right. You are an asshole. I

mean, you are an asshole. She got that.

You’re not old and failing. Well, you are kind of old. You

looked old.

You look old.

She’s effectively saying we’re all assholes. Because I think

all of us have talked about that.

We’re assholes. I’m an asshole. Yeah, I love it. Own it.


What’s your other choice being a whiner on the sidelines?

What we’ve said on the show is that we have a moral imperative

to get to get back to normal. Do we not? That is what we’ve

said. And for that, she’s basically saying that that is a

let them be COVID position, right? That we are basically we

don’t care if people get sick and die because of COVID. That’s

not true. You know, we just have a

fear. I think we should make people get vaccinated.

Yeah, you’re pretty close to getting people vaccinated. I

asked you, Saks, if there were three more variants, and this

was an acute situation, you said you would force

Oh, look, if we had if we had a variant of COVID, that was as

deadly as Ebola and as transmissible as Delta variant,

it 100% changes the game. There’s no question about

willing to change the government’s ability to put a

shot based on it’s a benefit. Yes, it’s a benefit cost

analysis. And that’s reasonable. But look, I give freedom, a lot

of weight. And part of my calculation is the fact that I

can get vaccinated to take to most likely take the most

serious risks off the table. So while I am impacted to some

degree by other people’s choices, I’m much less impacted

now that we have

but you’re thinking about this, yours, I still have a problem

with the way you’re thinking about this, because you’re

using you’re viewing this as a linear problem. This thing is

transmutating. And so

I know, but there’s still billions of people all over the

world who are unvaccinated, and we’d be better off focusing on

getting them a Marshall Plan for the vaccines, all these unused

doses, we’re wasting our breath in the United States, trying to

get these vaccine hesitant or anti vax people to get


Did you guys see that? Emmanuel Macron of France, you know,

basically tightened all these restrictions around access to

public places, going into bars and cafes, they basically put

all these rules in place that you have to be vaccinated. And

he did it in a public address on TV. 22 million people watched

it. Yep. And then after he did this, suddenly, the vaccination

signups went up to like 20,000. A minute, they got 4 million

people sign up to get vaccinated. Yep. I mean, in

France, what’s the point of being alive? And then let me

throw a wet blanket on the framing of this on whether all

of this talk about forcing vaccinations even make sense or

is possible. I have been to like three events over the last month

or two, where I was required to be vaccinated. And I literally

just took a photo of this index card that I got from this

person and sent it to them, which I could go make a kinkos

or I could print at home. So like, my point is, I don’t think

that there’s not a great digital system today to enable the level

of restriction that we’re actually talking about. How are

you actually going to know that people go into the Warriors game

are actually vaccinated? How are you actually going to know they

did it at Madison Square Garden, they literally had you pull out

your ID and they match your name to your vax card. And I think

printing out a vax card and faking it if I carry a find

could be a $10,000 fine. And so you would do it like anything

else. If you could, you could make a bogus driver’s license.

It’s not digital, right? There’s no, there’s no kind of

centralized system where we know who’s actually been vaccinated

who’s not. So so much of this is just this like analog paper

trail thing of like, here’s this piece of paper that says I’m

vaccinated. I think that you’re never going to really close the

hole on this thing. Now, you certainly will see the sort of

psychological behavior that they saw in France, which is you just

announce the restrictions, you announce these rules, everyone

or some number of people will sign up. But you know, I’m not

sure this actually ends up becoming this truly enforceable

mechanism of behavior in society over the next, you know, short

while I mean, maybe over time, we digitize all this stuff. But

we’ll see. Yeah. Anyway,

the best the best case scenario is that because Delta is so

transmissible, we get to herd immunity because all the people

who didn’t get vaccinated, just get it and get the natural

antibodies. And hopefully,

we to that because we have 60% of adults in the United States

have had one shot or more, which is why deaths probably aren’t

going up because that’s like 75% and people over 60. I think so

freeberg in your estimation as our science guy, with what we

have, like 30 million people who’ve been infected that we know

of, you got to triple that number, right? Because there’s

people who we don’t know, and then you have 65, you have 60%.

So we got to be in the range of 70% have been exposed or been

vaccinated. So when does it kick in? Or are we experiencing, you

know, herd immunity right now with these low deaths?

We talked about this before, but there are, you know, there’s a

spectrum of infection, right? You’re, you’re, you’re, you can

have viral replication happening in your body, and then your body

clears out the virus before you even know, because you’ve got

enough antibodies to that particular strain of a variant

of a virus before your body even, you know, you start to

feel symptoms. And there are cases where the virus kind of

replicates in an uncontrolled way for a period of time, and

you have incredibly bad symptoms, and you have

inflammation, all the stuff that follows. And so, you know, in

terms of how you measure this stuff, it’s really difficult to

say that you’re going to stop all viral replication by getting

a certain number of people to be to have been exposed, as we’ve

seen, even when you have a broad and diverse antibody pool in

your body, because you’ve been exposed to a vaccine, we are

still seeing that some of these variants can break through for

some period of time, because there’s not enough of the

antibodies that can actually bind to that specific variant.

And so the rate of transmission slows, the rate of severe

infection goes way down, and so on. So it’s not as binary as,

hey, we hit herd immunity, and now we’re done, it seems this

is, you know, as we talked about earlier, and as I think everyone

is coming to terms with, this is going to be an endemic virus.

And that means that it’s going to be circulating in the

population in a modest way, causing sometimes severe,

sometimes, you know, modest outbreaks, for likely a very

long time, no matter how many people get it, no matter how

many people get vaccinated, because you have different

levels, should we ignore it? At what level? Should we just say,

Listen, that is the steady state? How many cases a day? How

many deaths a day? Do you think is the steady state that we

should just say, we just go to work and ignore it?

I am a brutal, cold hearted libertarian on this point. And I

have been since we first talked about this last year, I’ve

always been of the mind that we need to balance the, the follow

on life effect and from the economic fallout associated with

making certain behavioral changes, and restrictions

relative to the actual loss of life, right? So you can never go

I really think this point about zeroism, and this term about

zeroism is an important one, you can never get to zero cases,

what is the acceptable number of cases? And what is the cost to

keep that caseload down? The balance of those two is a very

difficult leadership decision, put a number on it. It’s about

saving lives, right? So like, there are a certain number of

people whose lives are going to be ruined, who are some of them

will commit suicide, some of them won’t be able to earn an

income, again, their businesses are going to get shut down. What

is the economic cost of that versus the economic cost of the

loss of life?

What I’m saying is, what is the number we had an average of 250

death 250,000 case known cases a day at the peak, we had a peak

deaths of 4100 a day, we are now at 200 people dying a day. And,

you know, 30,000 cases, is there a number at which you say, let’s

just focus on getting back to work? And is that number where

we are now? I’m trying to get

so I Yeah, again, I wouldn’t simplify it to those data

points. What I would do is, again, I would look at, you

know, at what age are people dying? How many life years are

we losing? And how can we address the acute populations

that are at risk in the acute populations that are that are

potentially going to be exposed, manage those

populations differently than you manage the broader population

that has a lower likelihood of risk of death and a lower

likelihood of fatality. And the restrictions that you then

impose to, you know, start to manage the risk and the exposure

to different populations gets weighed against the saving of

life and the loss of life in both circumstances. So it’s not

easy, right? It’s it’s never wants to sum this whole thing up

to like, how many deaths a day is appropriate? That’s not the

right answer, right? Because

well, you’re saying how many

that part of it is so obvious, right, that and we should have

known this last summer, the obvious part being that what you

want to do is focus your prevention on the part of the

population that’s the most at risk. And what do we do with

lockdowns, we literally locked down the entire population,

every business, it was completely insane, we should

have focused it on protecting the most at risk populations

isolating the sick, or the people at greatest risk, not

everybody was just insane. And I mean, I can’t believe we’re

still having that conversation a year later.

Can I before we move on to the next topic? Can I can I read the

best? Can I read the best best comment from Saksas tweet, so

Saksas tweet, because an opinion is wrong doesn’t mean it should

be censored. Just because the behavior is harmful doesn’t mean

it should be prohibited. And just because something is

beneficial doesn’t mean it should be required. The best

response goes to distantly social rumple, whose full name

is at Wendell shirk, who said, this message brought to you by

the generic self serving platitude alert network. We now

return you to your regularly scheduled episode of the bland

soap opera with the problem sisters.

Well, yeah, I look there, there’s an element of truth to

that, which is I almost didn’t tweet him because I thought it

was too much of a platitude. But the fact that people on the

other side got so triggered by it shows why it was actually

useful to tweet it is, they think that if you’re calling for

any modicum of freedom or return to normalcy, you’re basically a

selfish asshole. I mean, it’s insane. I mean, they want to

stay in this world of zero is COVID restrictions forever.

We got to move on. We’re 45 minutes into COVID. So we got to

move on. But I think if this is in the influenza, plus or minus

100% zone, we got to pick a number where we decide we’re

moving forward as a society. And you know, local communities can

make decisions if they have outbreaks. But I kind of think

if this is within, you know, two x of our yearly deaths from

you know, influenza and just the normal cold, I think we move

forward as best we can do we want to go to China, Cuba, I

think just real quick, before we move away from this, I really

want to just highlight the DeepMind announcement from this

morning, because I think it’s actually quite relevant to the

tracking of variants and what’s been going on. Okay. So this

morning, you know, DeepMind, which published alpha fold, and

we talked about this a few

by Google, it’s their AI, it’s an AI arm owned by Google. And

they basically took protein structure and tried to predict

what a protein looks like physically as a function of the

DNA or RNA, that codes the amino acids that make up the

protein. And so again, like when you have a string of amino

acids, they they combine and they fold into a way that’s

really hard to predict. And that’s the shape of the molecule

that we call the protein, and then it does something in the

body. And historically, we’ve had very hard times understanding

how genetic code translates into physical structure of protein,

which would allow us to predict what that protein can then do in

the body. So this morning, DeepMind incredibly published a

database with the predicted structure of every protein in

the human body, and in 10 other species using this, this

capability that they now have,

what does it mean in English?

And so you know, what this means is we now have a physical model

of every protein that human DNA can make. And that model would

allow us to basically now predict what that protein does,

how it does it and how certain drugs can bind to those

proteins, and how certain drugs can affect those proteins and

how we can alter human health by making new molecules or

adjusting the genetic code to change the shape of those

proteins in specific and targeted ways. So it’s an

incredible data set that was just published. It’s almost like,

you know, releasing the Rosetta Stone, in my opinion, in terms

of we now have this ability to translate human genetic code

into the physical form of the molecules that run our body and

do things in our body. They did it for 10 other species. And

they said that they’re going to publish this proteome database

and scale it for all other species of life that we have the

sort of data set around, for which they expect will achieve

over 100 million unique proteins in this database over the coming

months freely available and searchable. And let me just

explain, and I know I’m on a monologue here. So I’ll win the

monologue stat. It’s a good one. It’s a good one. But let me just

explain why this is relevant. The Delta variant, what it is,

is that you know, the the SARS-CoV-2 RNA sequence is about

30,000 base pairs long. 10% of those are about 3000 base pairs

make up the spike protein, which is the protein at the tip

of the COVID virus, the coronavirus that gets into the

cells. And, you know, for every 10 people that are infected with

coronavirus, there’s about one nucleoside mutation, one of

those base pairs changes, and the virus evolves. And we don’t

know how that change in that genetic code translates into a

different structure of the protein. And so we suddenly

discover empirically, and you know, by looking around,

suddenly, all these people are getting more infected than

we’re getting infected before we look at the genetic code, and

we’re like, oh, here’s the changes that happened. But we

could have with this capability from alpha fold predicted what

changes make the spike protein do a better job binding to human

ACE2 receptors on the cells and getting it to cells. And what

other changes could be made in the whole genome of the SARS-CoV-2

virus that could cause this virus to be more transmissible,

more deadly, all these sorts of factors, because we can now

estimate the physical form of that protein by changing the

base pair. And so this tool that was released today, I think

highlights that over the next decade, these sorts of things

that are going on with viruses mutating and variants occurring

that are affecting our population can be better

estimated and tracked digitally. And it gives us the ability to

start to prepare tools and defense mechanisms against them

with new drugs and new variant models and new vaccines well

ahead of the Oh my god, we just got hit with a nuclear bomb,

let’s clean up the mess kind of in the future. So it’s an

exciting day, an exciting moment.

Would they have been released this, David, if it hadn’t been

for COVID coming out? Do you think DeepMind just pivoted

their entire group? Because they have about 1000 people I

understand. And by the way, they pay something in the order of

six or 700,000 a year on average. And there’s many people

there who are getting paid millions of dollars a year. So

just think about the scale of what Google is spending on this,

you guys know that I probably shifted a large number of

people to work on this, you guys know that I have long deep roots

at Google. And I will tell you that the value system of people

there, you know, the press and the public will think what they

want. But I think that the value system of people there, drove

them to realize the importance of this work that they’re doing

with alpha fold, and it is important for humanity. And it

is important for the health broadly of people, they could

have kept it all inside, and used it to build therapeutic

drug companies and make money from that. And I think the

importance of this discovery and this capability was, was realized

and is published for that very reason. There’s a lot of work

that DeepMind does to optimize ad targeting and ad spending and

all this stuff. And they make 10s of billions of dollars of

incremental revenue for Google per year based on those

capabilities. And then there are these things that benefit all of

us. And by putting this out publicly, it’s a great good for

humanity. And, you know, they’re making it freely available and

searchable. And so I don’t think that COVID kind of

instigated this, because they’ve been working on this for a very

long time since before COVID. And this is a very hard

biological problem that is key to understanding biology and how

biology works. It’s been going on for decades, they’ve unlocked

it with software, and they’re making it freely available. And

you know, there will be hundreds of drug companies that will now

start because of what’s in that database.

This is a mitzvah to society to humanity. It does it change the

fact that Google is spending well over a billion dollars a

year on DeepMind and doing projects like this. Does this

change any of your thinking about breaking them up trim off

or you know, how we look at big tech?

That’s a good question.

No. Because how do you afford it? Yeah, where does it where

does this kind of

we learned something very disturbing about big tech this

week, actually. This is quite a bombshell that Jen Psaki dropped

from the White House press briefing. We got to talk about

this. She just sort of casually mentioned that. Oh, yeah, by the

way, the administration is flagging posts for a social

media company for big tech companies to take down to remove

accounts, specific accounts and posts. Yeah. And she just kind

of just casually mentions Oh, yeah, the big tech companies are

very, you know, eagerly cooperating with the

administration to take down these counts, accounts. She even

said that when one of these companies takes down an account,

the rest should do it to implying that the White House is

providing the central coordinative role in the

censorship global block list. Yeah.

Let’s let’s take the most charitable view here. I know

that it’s very easy to make this a left versus right. They’re

censoring yada yada, Trump got banned. But if somebody was

saying, this was micro, this was an account that was claiming

that microchips were in the vaccine. Would it not be? How

would the and there was hitting scale? You know, what would be

the way for the White House to inform social media that there

was an account that was saying falsely that microchips were in

there, and that that was trending?

The White House or its officials are free to put out their

statements and their position. But this is different. This is

the White House coordinating behind the scenes with big tech


Well, they’re not behind the scenes. They’re saying they’re

doing it right here to everybody.

Correct. Correct. The behavior was behind the scenes, but

Pisaki just admitted it, which is why it’s such a bombshell.

Look, even the ACLU

you were president, and there was an account on Facebook,

YouTube, Twitter, that was saying there was a microchip

from Bill Gates.

This is a this is a blatant violation of the people’s First

Amendment rights.

Tell them how would you you are allowed you’re the First

Amendment gives you the right to say things that are untrue. It

is not the business of government to declare what is

true and what is false. Okay, even even hold on. I’m not done.

Even the ACLU came out of retirement. We hadn’t we haven’t

heard from them for the last year. During any of the hard to

be the ACLU. Yeah, we haven’t heard from them during the past

year. During all of this activity has been going on with

accounts being blocked and ghosted. They finally came out of

retirement to say that that this is a dangerous violation of

people’s First Amendment rights. You cannot have the government

saying what is true and what is false and then denying people the

right to express their opinions based on what the government

thinks is the truth. And by the way, there’s been a very

subtle change here in the language that’s being used. If

you remember what the argument used to be that we have to stop

disinformation does now it’s shifted to have to stop

misinformation. So those two things are very different. It’s

kind of like that. Well, it’s kind of like the difference in

the term equality versus equity. They sound similar, but they

actually mean very different things. So disinformation is

actually a campaign of purposeful purposeful campaign

of propaganda and lies usually put forward covertly. So it’s

the FSB, or some intelligence agency putting out whatever

putting out disinformation usually under false accounts. So

in that case, we can say no, you can’t do that because you can’t

engage in deception around who you are, right. But

misinformation is simply information that’s being put

out that frankly, you disagree with. Okay. And

or could be discernibly wrong. Wait, you’re, you’re kind of

framing that, right? It could be, you’re putting out

information, like there’s a microchip in the vaccine that is

more explicitly known to be wrong.

Look, the lab leak theory was considered misinformation by

these same people three months ago.

Okay, let’s take this. There’s a microchip. If the if it was the

case that they said there’s a microchip in the vaccine, would

you be okay with the White House contacting social media companies

saying, Hey, you got these accounts that are saying

there’s a microchip, you might want to look into it. They’re

not saying take it down. They’re saying take a look into it.

That’s not the White House’s business. Do I believe in the

microchip theory? No, of course not. It’s absolutely ridiculous.

But it is not the business of

to be telling social media who to ban and who to block list.

I think they didn’t tell him to ban. I think they told him to be

aware of it. Go ahead, come off. I think your framings wrong

sex. No, no.

But Saki said that when one site takes it down, they should all

take it down. And then Biden on top of it comes out and pours

kerosene on the fire by saying that social media sites are

literally killing people. Well, yeah, by allowing by allowing

this misinformation. So here we see now let’s be honest. He’s a

president. This is the President of the United States using the

bully pulpit to call social media sites mass murderers by

virtue of allowing people to have free speech. Trump never

used language that intemperate. I don’t remember him ever

calling God, American companies. Go ahead, come on, let’s not

speak. Let’s not speak.

This is the exact reason you you can’t have a stranglehold on

distribution, because it will get perverted. And then we

either have people we like or people we don’t like in these

positions of power, or people we like or people we don’t like

regulating, and it’s constantly flipping. And we’re all just

doomed and bound to get fucked over. So back to the thing that

Friedberg brought up before, I think alpha fold is incredible.

I think Google has been an incredible company. They make

money hand over fist, they waste an enormous amount of money and

all kinds of trash. So it’s good that they were actually

able to do something useful here. I generally think that

companies like Google and Facebook and Amazon,

unfortunately, do not allow the constructive form of capitalism

that people want in today’s society. They’re just too big.

Trump off makes a great point, which is we’ve got these big

tech monopolies who’ve become gatekeepers over content, okay.

And what the administration has done and their allies in

Congress is hang a sort of Damocles over the heads of these

big tech companies. They’ve appointed Lena Khan to be the

enforcer at the FTC. They’ve got their six bills in Congress

right now. They’ve held congressional hearings around

taking away Section 230 protection, which is very

economically advantageous for these big tech companies. So

they position the sword perfectly over the heads of big

tech companies, threatening to break them up and rein them in.

And then Jen Psaki in the White House, go to them and say, we

want you to take down these accounts that we don’t agree

with. This is misinformation. Okay, that is a huge danger to

free speech. It’s basically like the administration saying to

these big tech companies, nice little social network you got

there. It’d be a real shame if anything happened to it. Look at

what’s going on. Don’t you want them broken up? I do want them

broken up. But what I don’t want is if you want them to hold the

sword, or do you not want them to hold the sword? I actually

want the sword to come crashing. I actually want the

sword to swing the sword, not hold it over and then use it

for extortion. Yeah, that’s actually a great explanation.

Then, Friedberg. Yes. I’m trying to moderate here, Friedberg. Do

you give a shit? We’ve talked about this spent all day on his

phone. He is not dialed into this. I’m with you guys. I

thought we just went over the alpha fold stuff way too fast. I

mean, the arguing over freedom of speech is happening. And all

of this debate Friedberg at the same time that we are making

incredible life changing moments for humanity. Two different

companies went to space last week with civilians. And then we

are basically defining the blueprint for the human and

every other species on the planet. And we’re fighting over

people too stupid to take a goddamn vaccine that would save

everybody’s life and let us continue on and people are

dunking on Bezos for not reading the room. I don’t know if you

saw this Friedberg. But how do you think about the space race

in relation to reading the room, etc.

Progress, technologically, will only arise with capital. So you

can assume that that progress, you know, it’s not like someone

stumbles into a cave and discovered a rocket ship or

stumbles into a cave and discovered alpha fold. There are

years of toiling and labs like Edison did making the light

bulb. It medicine had to raise a ton of money to get that light

bulb project off the ground. If you guys haven’t read, trying

to remember the biography, there’s a wizards of something

was it’s got wizards in the title. It’s a good biography of

Edison. And, you know, and I feel like we’re at this moment

where the Wizard of Menlo Park. Yeah, I think that’s the wizard

of Menlo Park. That’s right. And the amount of capital that it

takes to make these breakthroughs at alpha fold or at

Waymo, or what Bezos and Elon are doing is so extraordinary

that you have to be in a position where you can fund this

work, you’re not going to get a bunch of kickstarters to fund a

SpaceX like project or a, you know, Blue Origin like project.

And so I think that the benefit of scale that comes out of some

of these businesses is that we can do research and development,

and we can progress our capabilities as a species forward

in a way that would have never been possible if not for the

capitalist system and the ability for these businesses to

accumulate a large enough pool of capital to take on multiple

billion dollar bets. And like Chamath said, waste a lot of

money and lose on nine out of 10 of them. But if that $1 billion

bet works, it’s worth $500 billion. And that money

continuously gets reinvested. And look at what Google did with

Waymo, they put over a billion dollars in that project before

everyone woke up and said, my God, self driving is real, it’s

possible. And it kickstarted an industry. And I just feel like

the amount of money and not to mention the fact that like,

these are free markets. So these businesses, Google, you don’t

have to search on Google, you don’t have to buy from Amazon,

but everyone benefits from searching on Google, everyone

benefits from buying on Amazon. And the capability of these

businesses is rooted entirely on the fact that consumers are

choosing to use their products and their services, because they

are so good. And so I don’t feel like these guys are screwing

people over, you can consider the small business model as

being like, you know, hey, maybe we shouldn’t have had small

business retailers for as long as we did, because at some

point, distribution was going to be economically advantaged by

being centralized. And therefore all consumers are going to

benefit by centralizing. Is there really a right to

maintain local distribution sites that we call small

businesses that should remain in business forever? Maybe there’s

a way to help them transition into a new business model or a

new market. But same with what happened with the taxi industry,

technology will force these evolutions, the capital

accumulates, and that capital can be invested in things that

we would have never imagined on a smaller scale. But go ahead.

No, I do think sympathetic to what you were saying. I do think

that if you look at every platform innovation that’s ever

happened, so whether it’s, you know, we go from no print to

print, you know, to newspapers, to radio to television, you’ve

always first started with a pendulum that was very much

firmly in the camp of centralized, monopolistic or

oligopolistic kind of early outcomes. And either through

legislation or through innovation, then the pendulum

swings to decentralization that’s typically happened,

right. And you can look at all of these industries that’s gone

through that. So it stands to reason that technology will be

not dissimilar to those things. And everybody says the argument

is well, no, because technology has these specific features of

network effects and lock in. But I think that betrays this idea

that legislatively, you can come and just basically destroy the

China in the China shop, and you have to just start all over. So

it’s likely that we’re going to move to a place that’s a

healthier outcome for everybody. And obviously, we want things

like alpha fold to exist. And we want things like Waymo to exist.

The question is, how should they exist? And if they come out of

the goodwill of Google, it is just so easily as likely that

some other person, let’s say it wasn’t Sundar and Ruth Peratt.

But to other people who didn’t like it, these things could have

been very different forms and shapes and not exist at all. And

I think that’s the arbitrary nature of it, which is not

necessarily free market capitalism that doesn’t benefit


Should we come off be upset that Bezos is going to space and

spending 10s of billions of dollars that he made from


He had a bad press conference. Let’s just be clear at the end

of the day, he has wanted to do this his entire life. He built

an incredible company, he was able to take a lot of that

capital and invested in it. He’s invested billions of dollars in

other things $10 billion in climate change. His ex wife has

invested, you know, $6 billion just last year alone in all

kinds of good works. So those two individuals, because of

their success, I think will generally do and have done the

right thing. Let’s not get that confused with a horrendous press

conference, where he just put

why was it horrendous?

Well, I think you said it, you know, the thing that he said

around, you know, I just want to thank the customers and the

employees for paying for this. It sounded flippant. And it

didn’t really acknowledge the incredible amount of heavy

lifting and hard work that he did acknowledge in the clip from

2000 on Charlie Rose, right. So if you if you actually played

those two things back side by side, you’d say is this the same

person? One was thoughtful, extremely respectful. The other

one was now maybe he was just amped up. I mean, I could see I

think that’s what I think cloud nine, so to speak, you know, and

so and so he just wasn’t thinking about it. But you know,

honestly, like, look, he is smart enough. And that team is

smart enough to say, we’re assuming you’re coming back. So

here’s some fucking talking points. Why don’t you just look

at those on the way down as you float down to earth. And let’s

just make sure we nailed this and put our best foot forward.

That is where I think he probably has some regrets based

on how people reacted.

This Bezos spaceflight was a real Rorschach test because he

took heat from both the right and the left. But the criticism

was very different. You know, the critique I heard from the

right was that he’s having some sort of midlife crisis, the

rocket looked too much like a phallus, okay, fine, whatever

that the criticism from the left was, it had much more to do with

a real contempt for private initiative and private

enterprise, you could almost see them being horrified and

dismayed that, you know, why was he doing this with his own

money? You know, if this had been a NASA flight, I don’t

think they would have had a problem with it. And so you see

here that even though Bezos has been so much more effective

using his own money to do this, the left is reflexively hates

that. And, and they kept saying, well, how dare he use this

money, the money could have been used on something else so

much better. Well, what do you think of that argument? Yeah, I

think it’s wrong in a couple of respects. It basically implies

that the purveyors of these social programs are better

distributors of societal resources than our greatest

inventors. And I don’t think that’s true. You look at these

social programs, they want to keep doubling down on they’re

not working. You know, these programs are policies towards

homelessness is not failing because of lack of funding.

There’s a tremendous amount of funding. In San Francisco,

they’re spending $60,000 per tent per year, they’re spending

$300,000 in social services per homeless person per year. Lack

of funding is not the problem. The approach is the problem. We

spend something like $25,000 per pupil in California schools,

the test scores are going down. So you know, these people who

are criticizing Bezos don’t know what to do with the money. They

don’t know how to spend it any better. They’re not good at

executing. However, Bezos or Elon, these are two of our

greatest inventors, let them go, let them go. Because you know,

they are pushing the boundaries. And I do believe there will be

great engineering and scientific breakthroughs that come as a

result of what they’re doing with this new space race.

It’s also super uninformed if correct me if I’m wrong here,

but they were saying that the they should have been doing

more initiatives on earth if you actually and they were kind of

talking about climate change and the use of these fuels to get to

space. And number one, the rocket ship fuel, my

understanding in these is less than the what happens in a 747.

So put that aside. And then second, Elon has done more for

global warming with Tesla than anybody in the in the battery

packs, I think in modern society, I can’t think of

somebody in the private sector who’s done more. And then has

there ever been a gift, there’s never been a gift of $10 billion

to one cause, let alone one cause which Bezos gave, which

was climate change. Nobody, nobody has done more. So hasn’t

you would know Chamath, I thought Richard Branson had done

a lot for global warming. I thought he was very involved in

the carbon credits space.

I think that we’re witnessing something that can best be

described as people who have reached a point in their life

where they’ve realized that they’re impotent, getting

incredibly angry at people who are willing to be wrong, but

want to just have a chance to be on the field and try and have

the freedom to do so. And that just literally infuriates a

certain class of people. It proves itself out by what David

said, we are not in a funding crisis, we are running 10 $20

trillion deficits, you know, or sorry, 10, you know, hundreds of

billions of dollar deficits, 10 $20 trillion debt levels that

are increasing every year. We have a surfeit of money. We

print money whenever we want, we don’t have a shortage of

money. We have a shortage of capable people who know what to

do with that money. And in the absence of people being able to

do things, they would rather other people not do things not

because it’s not the right thing to do, but because it makes them

feel impotent.

Right. And so what what is what is driving that I think you

there’s a real contempt for private initiative. And Jason,

you’re right, you see it in the hatred towards Elon, nobody has

done more to actually reduce carbon emissions than Elon. I

mean, even the best end of story, period end of story. I

mean, the best gift to some philanthropy, I don’t know if

that’s going to make a difference or not. You’re right

that he’s putting his money where his mouth is on that

issue. But it’s indisputable that Elon, the electric car

industry would not exist without Elon. And yet there is contempt

and hatred for the fact that he did this through private


If the guy does he does it in a way that is not checking the

boxes for this cohort of people who feel incredibly insecure and

fragile emotionally. They don’t like that he says what he wants.

They don’t like that he does what he wants. They don’t like

that he dresses the way he does. They don’t like any of it

because it’s not conformist enough. It’s not about the look

people. It’s also about the money that it’s the wealth

that’s been accumulated to hold on. I don’t think that’s what it

is at all. No, I actually think what it is is psychological. It

is nothing about money. I think what we are witnessing and I

think social media has just blown the cover off it is a

psychological awakening that people have, which is that they

were comfortable knowing that there was a class of insiders,

and a huge cohort of outsiders. And they just believe the world

would function as it should. Now you see people migrating through

this membrane, achieving enormous amounts of success,

basically eclipsing every single insider possible by orders of

magnitude. And it breaks people’s brains, because they

don’t like it. Because now they think, why did it happen to me?

Why not me? And the thing is, because you’re not capable. And

at somewhere along the way, I’m working, you’re not dedicated,

you didn’t try or you didn’t try.

They didn’t act with agency.

I mean, look, every day, every day, the greatest thing that

I’ve learned about the public markets now, having been, you

know, purely on the early stage technology side, building,

running, then investing, is I get a mark every day, right now

to do both businesses, I get a scorecard every day. And some

days, I really think to myself, maybe I’m just not good enough

today. And I say to myself, that is true today. And then the

difference is tomorrow, I have a choice, which is I wake up and I

decide, am I going to go back at it or not?

And I’m not a game. And I’m not going to hate on other people

who had a good day today, just because I had a bad day. And

that’s what I think we’re going through. We’re going through and

social media allows it to happen. And it allows you to

put it out there. You can hide behind a screen name, you can

basically say whatever you want to vent this pent up

frustration. One journalist doing it. Of course, of course,

because these journalists are doing it to where they’re just

so bitter that they feel dunking on the greatest

inventors of our time is a productive use. The difference

is journalists do it with the real screen name under the guise

of journalism. Everybody else does it with the fake screen

name. And it’s all just a bunch of trolling.

In order to do something really great, like Bezos, or like Elon,

you have to believe that you have agency over your own life,

you have to believe that you can accomplish great things. You

have to, you know, act with with purpose. And is that really what

we’re teaching kids to do today in schools, what we’re teaching

them is they’re either victims, or oppressors at some

intersectional framework. We’re not teaching them about earned

success, we’re teaching them about privilege, which is, you

know, is presumptively ill gotten. And it’s all about a

transference of privilege, and, and basically money from people

who are oppressors in this framework to people who are

victims. But no one’s talking about how you actually create

change and success in abundance. It’s all a negative sum. It’s

always a negative sum game.

Freeberg, go ahead.

I did it all back to the Kim Kardashian sex tape. I think

that there was this moment where someone who was didn’t do

anything, didn’t have a career wasn’t doing anything workwise,

but was kind of a pseudo celebrity for being a celebrity.

It’s like the Paris Hilton, Nicole Richie era, right? Like,

folks who don’t really have much to talk about, except that

they’re the ones that people are talking about. And then that

sex tape turned her into a superstar. And then she became a

billionaire a few years later. And so, you know, there, there

is this kind of poignant moment, I think, where folks are like,

wait a second, you don’t have to do anything to get really rich

in this country, you don’t have to do anything to achieve all

this fame. Therefore, the the kind of assumption is, hey, you

know what, there are people that just get stuff and get to do

what they want to do. And the rest of us don’t. And I do think

that social media is the magnifying glass that takes

those those moments and makes them very big. And kind of then

that becomes the assumed standard, when the reality is, I

mean, all four of us work really fucking hard. All four of us

came from nothing. I don’t know about sacks. But I mean, the

rest of us, his dad was an immigrant doctor from South

Africa, and he moved to the south as a Jew. I’m just

80s. I mean, I think all of us graduated college deeply in

debt. And then we all worked our way out of debt. And we all

found ways to work really hard and find opportunities for

ourselves in this incredible country. And to build value and

to build businesses can be done to realize those returns. And we

don’t start out as elites. We were never elite, we were always

the struggling, you know, immigrant entrepreneurs that got

ourselves to where we are, because we clawed and we pushed

and we fought and we had grit, and we had determination, and we

had smarts, and we had put in the effort. And I think that

that’s not really and so did Bezos, and so did Ilan. And I

don’t think that there is any standard of elitism that endowed

in them, like maybe in, you know, the British, the days of

the British monarchy, these kind of inalienable rights to have

the freedom that they have. And I think that that and I think

that that’s so important, because people miss that point.

And they think that Kim Kardashian, or the random bolt

of lightning or the elite is the kind of endowed upon people

in a way that’s unfair.

They’re misreading the situation. Everyone else is

missing out. Yeah, they misread the situation.

So a couple things. Kim Kardashian may have gotten some

initial fame because of her sex tape. But fuck if she’s not an

incredible business person, because from there to now,

that’s execution. Totally. There’s a lot of there’s a lot

of toiling hard work, good decision making. She fucking

nailed it. Was I lucky to have actually joined Facebook versus

MySpace? Yes. But when I was there, did I fucking hit the

cover off the ball? Goddamn? Yes. You know, was I lucky to

have started social capital and be able to raise capital? Sure.

But then did I have to help find a team, coach that team work

with them make good investments. That’s fucking hard. And I think

what people forget is that this takes a lot of hard work, that

there’s all kinds of levels of success that you can be proud of

all kinds of different accomplishments. What I loved is

when Friedberg used us, and Ilan and Bezos in the same

sentence, because I catch myself where I’m ashamed sometimes

where I’m like, I am not as good as those two guys. So how dare I

use my name in the same sentence as their name? And then I think,

wait a minute, what the fuck am I quibbling over? Like, this is

insane in any way, shape or form. We’ve all made it sure

there’s different degrees, but it’s beyond that it matters at

this point. And this is what I think we’re living in a society

where it really distorts you. So if how do we change it?

Chamath? How do we change people from thinking that it’s random

and that you can’t do it? Because there are people who

are no, it is random. But there are a group of people who

believe the system is rigged. I cannot become Chamath. And I’m

stuck in a rut and I can’t get out. I can’t get out. How do we

change that? But we have the whiners and the complainers and

the haters are stuck in a massive rut. And I think the

thing that happened that I said it last pod, I’ll say it again,

maybe I’ll just say it every fucking pod. It is not about

winning and losing. It is about trying and learning. And that is

a huge thing. It’s about a learning mindset. It’s about

this idea that things are changing so fucking fast. The

only thing that I can do to stay safe is to learn how to learn

because things will constantly be changing underfoot.

But what do you say to the single mother with three kids

who is in a town where the factory is shutting down and

she’s losing her job and she doesn’t have the resources to

move? She is not the person that hates Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. I

will fucking but what did she do? Because aren’t there

institutional ruts in the United States? Yeah, yeah, I

understand. These are two completely different topics. My

point is, if you go online, it is filled with Pete, a small

cohort of people that are positive. And then a large

cohort of people that are silently trying to just gain

information out and a small vocal minority of bitter people

who can’t do shit. And all I’m talking about is people. Well,

who knows if they’re privileged, but I’m just saying they’re

here getting paid 100,000 to work at the Atlantic. I just

think that these people have been checkboxes their whole

lives. They tried to play the team sports they were told to

they went to the schools, they tried to do the CFA, the MBA,

the this or the that. Nothing worked for them. They work in an

environment where they don’t feel any equity. Actually, this

is where equity is important. They feel disenfranchised, and

they’re angry. And as a result, they just want everything to be

different so that nobody wins because they can’t win. But if

they were winning, they would be the first one to say shut the

fucking door behind me. I’m convinced of it. 100.

The irony is that the people you’re talking about all went to

these elite institutions. And they imbibed these ideologies

and philosophies. And I think the people who have been

successful, went to those not in all cases, but they went to those

places and then rebelled against it or just shut it out.

Here’s what we should do. Here’s what we should do. We should all

contribute five or 10 million bucks into a into an LLC, we

should call Pegasus, we should use Pegasus to infiltrate all

the fake screen names on Twitter, and then index that to

LinkedIn to figure out where they all went to school and what

they do and just publish a database of all the haters.

Well, I mean, it’s how funny would that be?

I it’s very interesting, because I’m watching a group of these

complainers leave traditional mainstream media, because I’m

focused on journalists, because I was one. And I’m watching them

leave journalism, a small group of them, and become

entrepreneurs on substack or their own products. And I feel

like there’s a little group of them who are realizing, holy

shit, I can make $1 million. If I apply myself, and I quit the

New York Times, and I go start my own publication,

right. And I actually see something interesting and

differentiated, not just towing the party line at the New York

Times. There’s a whole little, there’s a little crack here in

this, like, I’ll say, I’ll say they are just as successful as

Elon Musk, and Jeff Bezos. The the financial quantum may be

different. But I bet you the personal fucking satisfaction

quantum is the same. And this is the key. This is the key, you

could be running a $500,000 a year business. And you could

feel like a million fucking bucks. You’re a nice house. Yeah,

you have a nice house, no nice family, you know, you employ a

couple people, you provide a good life, you do what you want

to do when you want to do it. The sense of freedom that comes

with that and power and agency is the same as them. And maybe

in some ways, the super richest guys in the world actually have

less agency than these guys would. Because they’re so, you

know, scheduled, and people are coming after them all the time.

One of my big takeaways from being in the tech industry for

20 years is that if you’re smart, hardworking, and don’t

have behaviors that sabotage yourself, you will be

successful in this industry. You know, over two decades, I mean,

I’ve seen it. How could you not you have such tailwinds at your

back, there’s so much value being created. We saw over the

past year, more money, more LP dollars have gone into venture

capital by far than any other year. And more money, more

returns is coming out. That’s why more money is going to I’m on

the call. When you say anybody could be successful just by

showing right. And you said that, but the first part is the

critical part, you just said who are not prone to self sabotage.

There is an enormous number of people who are prone to self I

was one I am still one. But I

brought to yourself your ego, he blew up his firm. That’s true.

But I think he blew it up. Because there was creative

destruction. I think he wasn’t enjoying it. And he needed to

start talking about it publicly. He said it. But the blowing up

of when you How do you reconcile the blowing up of the firm

Chamath, whatever number of years later, I’m rebooting.

This is all old news. It’s like, you know, the amount of success

in capital and money that we’ve made is undisputable. And I’ve

made it under all kinds of weather conditions. So you know,

it all kind of speaks for itself. But the problem is,

again, if you ask an average person, I don’t think they care.

I don’t think they know. I don’t think they have an opinion. If

you ask some, you know,

interested in how you reconcile or look back on it. Now, it’s so

much distance.

I’ll tell you from an outside perspective, how I reconcile

Chamath decision there is I think that as you become more

successful, your tolerance for doing stuff you don’t want to do

really goes down.

It goes to zero.

Chamath has got to a point where he didn’t want to be doing and

he blew it up zero.

By the way, that that is a characterization as well that

you know, sometimes in in your career, you have to make it and

in your personal life, you have to make a tough decision. And

there is no good outcome. There is no good way to do it. But

there are these moments where you got a rock falling on you

from one side and a rock falling on you from the other side. And

you’re gonna have to make a tough decision to get out of

the way

I said to myself a long time ago, that if I was ever lucky to

actually be wealthy enough where my wealth would change by

meaningful amounts, every order of magnitude, I would do

something different. And so you know, you can do the fucking

math. So there it is.

I see. It’s interesting being friends with you and watching it

and then also, I hate to give credit, there it is. But being

friends with Phil Hellmuth, and watching him set outrageous

goals for himself in poker. I just thought, you know what, you

got to set some outrageous goals for yourself. And that’s

how I sort of broke through as I just said, the minute that I

realized one at everything I do, I want to be the largest

syndicate, the most Jason prolific investor,

the minute I realized that I was basically going to become, you

know, a billionaire because of my Facebook stock, I fucking

quit. And the craziest thing about it is I left so much stock

on the table. It’s like two $3 billion of fucking stock, I

couldn’t care less. And then and then, you know, once I figured

out that there was something that you can do with capital,

that’s even more meaningful than just investing in companies at

a small scale. But now you can, you know, control companies and

really allocate and shape how economy flows. I made a

different set of decisions. And now I’m here. And if I increase

it by another order of magnitude, I’ll make a

different set of decisions. And that’s poorly understood by

folks, because again, it doesn’t map into a worldview. But the

point is, it maps into something that keeps me whole and sane.

And it allows me to not be zero sum about everybody else’s

success. And that’s what I think we need to teach people

try stuff. It’s okay to fail. Because that’s as long as you’re

not self sabotaging yourself. David said it so well, you will

eventually be successful.

What have you learned, David? You know, in this next chapter

being an investor capital allocator?

That me?

Yeah, David, you? Well, that’s what I just Yeah,

no, it’s what I said. I mean, just Well, I mean, the thing

that’s happening right now is just the tech economy keeps

getting bigger and bigger. It’s just an explosion. There’s an

explosion in the number of unicorns, explosion in the

amount of funding that’s available, explosion in the

amount of returns being generated. There are now so many

VCs that VCs are literally throwing money at people. I

mean, any half decent idea now gets funded. The idea that

somehow this ecosystem is elitist or exclusionary. It’s

absurd, right? I mean, you’ve got micro VCs now who you know,

one has to go to Sand Hill Road anymore, right? I mean, there

are so many ways to

nobody on Sand Hill Road. It’s a ghost town. Remember traffic

jam? I went I went down there the other day. And there was no

traffic jam. I was speaking at Stanford. And literally, I was

like, I got to put 15 minutes into my drive to get through

that Sand Hill Road, because it was at 830. I zipped down Sand

Hill Road to Stanford, there was two cars.

The tech ecosystem is so osmotic, it’s so permeable in

terms of allowing new people in, in fact, it’s sucking in all the

talent it can find, because it can’t hire enough people, even

in the worst economic conditions. And yet, when it

comes to talking about social and political, talking about

opportunity in social and political terms, the only thing

you ever hear is that, you know, the ecosystem is somehow elitist

or exclusionary.

And that’s old. That’s old news that that might have been valid

1520 years ago. I know when I went to Sand Hill Road for the

first time 1520 years ago, it was a bunch of white partners

who went to Stanford or had a MBAs from, you know, Harvard,

but that’s not the case. Now. It’s a bunch of people with

rolling funds and micro VCs and syndicates totally and everything

in between.

You’re so wrapped up in being a social justice warrior, that

you’ve just missed, that there is like basically infinite

opportunity, you know, then it’s on you, you’re sabotaging

yourself. And then 510 years later, you’re still stuck in

that role. And then you become bitter, and then you become

bitter to Jamal’s point.

Freeberg, how hard was it for you to leave Google? And what

was that like?

I was at Google for two and a half years. I had gone through I

joined before the IPO, I was like, couple hundred employees,

just under 1000 employees. And then we went public. I got this

huge bonus from Sergey to stick around. When I was thinking, I

mean, for me, it was like, seven figures. It was. Yeah, it was a

couple 1000 shares of stock, and like $250,000 of cash. And I

gave it up, you know, be worth a lot of money. But I just felt

like I learned so much at Google. And I had such an

appreciation for the team there in the company. And by the way,

I worked at Google. And all of a sudden, the company went public

and I could buy a house. I mean, it was an incredible moment for

me. And, and I suddenly felt what Jamal talked about, which

is this freedom in my life, suddenly, I had hit that that

next plateau of wealth, where I now had a couple $100,000 of

net worth. And I could leave, or I guess I had over a million

dollars of net worth, and I could now leave and go do

something I wanted to go do with my night, I had a couple

$100,000. And I could go leave and do what I wanted to do,

which was to build my own business and have the freedom to

make decisions. And, and so I honestly felt like really fine

just leaving all that money behind, I left, I left millions

of dollars behind. For when I left Google after being there

for two and a half years to start my company. And, you know,

it was a struggle, right? Like, I mean, as you guys know,

building a business, which I did from 2006 to 2013, was a

nightmare. Every day was a nightmare. I say, in

entrepreneurship, I’ve said this publicly before, but it feels

like every day, you’re taking a step backwards. And one out of

five days, you take a five step leap forward. So at the end of

a week, you’re one step ahead of where you started, but your

existential memory is that you’re failing every day, every

day, and suddenly you wake up and seven years have gone by,

and you’re like, Oh, shit, we’ve got an amazing business. And

someone wants to buy it for a billion dollars. And if you

don’t have the grit and the guts, and the determination to

push through those those daily battles and deal with that,

that hardship, you know, and I don’t think that being in the

comfort of the big system of Google felt right for me, I

think being in the playing field and battling it out every day

is right for me. And so it was the right, it was the right call

for me, obviously, it worked out. But you know, still, I make

choices in my life in terms of what do I want to do? Do I want

to go live on a yacht or have some luxury or do whatever? And

I prefer to just make great businesses and turn science into

into commercial opportunity. And that’s how I choose to spend my


And I just wanted to send this out to the whole panel. Do you

ever think, you know, having hit the home runs, and having the

cash to literally retire at this age, and then just, you know,

kiteboard or do whatever? Do you ever think about retirement

and not going into work?

Fuck? No.

Okay. Yeah. You want to do you feel you want to work harder?

Yesterday, yesterday, as an example, was an incredible day,

because I was able to bicycle with Nat and the youngest to go

get a gelato. I had a kickoff meeting for I had a kickoff

meeting for a startup that’s doing something incredible in

batteries. Where, you know, starting from scratch, series a

co founders, me and the other into the other director. And

we’re starting literally starting and I remember the

feeling of having done this now 30 or 40 times and it’s the best


La Dolce Vita.

And then I and then I had a call because I’m trying to put a you

know, more than a billion dollars to work in a different

battery idea. And I thought to myself, God, I, I’m so fucking

lucky. And it’s, it was a grindy long day, and I had never felt

more thankful. So why would I, you know, I don’t know, I feel

just so blessed.

Sachs, you ever think about hanging up? Or are you more

motivated to go to work every day? Are you annoyed?

Yeah, I mean, the thing that’s given me the most energy right

now is we’re in a private beta on Colin, you’re this app that

we incubated. And I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s good. And it’s

getting better every day. And I’m really enjoying tinkering on

it. And I feel like, you know, I, you know, it’s kind of like

a tinkerer, by the way, you’re a good product. You’re good.

You’re good at tickling.

We, you know, we tried to hire sacks as VP of product at

Facebook. What? Yeah. What would that have paid him?

I used 2000 sacks, probably seven billions, probably 2007.

No, no, because I did the hammer instead. And you know, Yammer was

successful. And I got to be my own boss. And that was better,

you know, so I don’t know if I probably wouldn’t have made as

much money. But look, I’ve done. Like you guys, I’ve done made

lots of decisions that may be less money. If I just stayed at

PayPal for 20 years, my stock would have been worth many, many

billions, right? That’s why I tell people don’t sell

everything. Let your winners ride at least partially. Yeah.

I mean, look, my, I was an investor in Facebook. If I just

kept all of that stock, that’d be worth a billion dollars today.

So I mean, it’s pretty crazy. Well, sell some just don’t sell

everything. That’s my new philosophy. Yeah. So your point

about to your point about what gives me enjoyment. I mean, I’m

really having fun tinkering with this app. And you know what it’s

like? It’s like, it’s like a new season. If you’re in like the

NBA or something, it’s like, can we make a championship run? Can

we get one more ring? You know? And so you’re like, you know,

it’d be like saying to somebody, hey, you already got, you know,

to NBA and NBA champion. Hey, you got three rings. Why do you

want a fourth? You know? And it’s like, are you kidding me

while I’m still in this league? Well, I’m young enough and

healthy enough to make a run at one at one more ring. How could

you not want to do that? You know, you got to go for it. I

can see you are you’re engaged, which is great to see. All

right. Listen, this has been an amazing episode. We will see you

all next week. If you like the show. Thanks. The end. We’re not

going to

everybody go try something, anything possible. Try and fail.

Read a book. Read something that you wouldn’t have otherwise

read. Love you guys. But I love you guys. Love you. See you

soon. Everybody listening to everybody. I mean, literally, if

you’re listening to this, and you are buying into this that

the system is ready to troll. Don’t be a troll. Don’t be a

douche. Like the system is not rigged. If anything, the system

is rigged for you to participate and succeed. Join the party. The

system is malleable. The system is about this. If you want to

change the world, the system is malleable enough that if you

pursue it in the right way, you can make it you can make a dent.

You can. Who is this? Who is this little search? Hey, look

how happy you are. Who’s the best dad? Where’s your dad? All

right, we’ll see you all next time on the online podcast. Bye


Let your winners ride.

Rain Man David

we open source it to the fans and they’ve just gone crazy with

love us

besties are gone

that is my dog taking a notice your driveway

we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy

because they’re all just like this like sexual tension but

they just need to release

you’re a bee

waiting to get