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Do you still have those bat wings?
Bat wings?
I thought you told me, like, your vagina, you had those, like, so you still have the
meat flaps.
Okay, do the clapping.
Do the clapping before this takes a sinister turn.
One, two, three.
That sucked.
You always say it sucks.
One, two, three.
Why do you have to count before you do it?
She’s mixing it up.
I’m just-
Just move you to Hollywood.
You think we’re talented, yeah.
Just move you to Hollywood.
Wait, you guys, you look like you’re going to a funeral, both of you.
We are going to a funeral.
It’s called the death of our podcast.
We’re only a few episodes in and we’re already mourning and grieving.
It’s imminent.
It’s planning a funeral.
It’s imminent destruction.
So thank you for pointing that out.
Pumps, what have you had it with this week?
I’ve had it with people that put other people on dating sites.
That’s what I’ve had it with.
We would like to welcome you to I’ve Had It, a podcast about positivity and petty grievances
and sharing light episode after episode of unmitigated rage over petty bullshit.
The pettier the crime, the more irate we are.
The more what?
Irate.
I thought you said I write.
Irate.
Right.
This is why we are wearing all black today.
So I have something that I know is going to get you wound up like a cheap clock.
Oh God, I can’t wait.
What is it?
Men who skirt the system.
We’ve been talking about it for years.
You introduced me to the concept about 18 years ago.
Yes.
About it is so unfair that men get to skirt the system.
So why don’t you define what skirting is because I found it quite humorous.
OK, so I’ll tell the audience what I think it is.
So, you know, we’ve all watched those nature shows with that British guy with that great
voice.
What’s his name?
Richard Attenborough.
Richard Attenborough.
You know the guy.
And he’s like, you know, they’re mating and they’re breeding and she’s looking for the
alpha male gorilla.
Females are competing over who is going to have the best sperm for her offspring.
They’re looking at physical, you know, components.
They’re going to help them perpetuate their line, right?
So when it comes to our species, I’ve noticed there is a flaw in the system.
I’ll give you a prime example.
Donald Trump, Melania Trump.
Prime example.
Right?
But if he didn’t have a lot of money, it would have never happened.
Hence the skirting.
Hence the topic.
I’ll tell you what, you guys.
She is, I mean, steel traps on both sides of the brain.
You’re going to have a future in podcasting.
For sure.
This is going to be our last episode.
But so that’s just a prime example.
Here’s another prime example.
Men that are 70 that are dating a 25, 30 year old and because of Viagra they are able to
impregnate and have a whole new round of kids and a whole new family.
You know what I think about when I see that?
It’s like, okay, she has to see him naked.
Yes.
Like his old wrinkly ass.
Right.
Naked.
Naked.
I mean, that is just like, makes me throw up in my mouth.
And they are completely skirting the system because nowhere in nature would a woman choose
a geriatric person to be the father of her offspring.
The only reason our species does it because the one thing that trumps the physicality
for a woman of this type, this type of woman, is a big bank account.
Right.
So these men are skirting the system for two things.
Number one, they have a lot of money in the bank.
And number two, Viagra.
Right.
Viagra is the worst.
I mean, honestly, for these women, it would be a million times better.
I agree.
Because you know they are having to earn every penny.
And you know that even though there is Viagra involved, if it’s a 70-year-old dick, you
know it doesn’t end quickly.
Oh, my God.
I bet it’s just awful.
I bet it goes on for hours, forever.
You know that commercial that said if the erection lasts for four hours?
Right.
That motherfucker would be dead before four hours ever came.
I mean, there is no fucking way.
So a 70, 80-year-old for four hours.
Right.
The ugliest gorilla getting the hottest female gorilla.
Right.
No, that doesn’t happen.
It doesn’t happen.
It does not happen.
But a lot of women, sadly, that are not focused on having their own career and men, you know,
exploit this, they’re skirting.
Right.
Skirting.
They’re skirting the system.
They’re completely, this is not the natural flow of it.
So as you and I have talked about men that skirt the system for the longest time, I have
always thought about these mail-order brides.
Oh, yeah.
Didn’t you?
I had an over-explainer that had a mail-order bride.
It was oil money and lots of it.
So he was rich.
He was rich.
And he weighed 600 pounds if he weighed an ounce.
Like morbidly obese.
Morbidly.
Like take out the wall and get a crane fat.
Morbidly obese, richer than shit.
Richer than shit.
Okay.
Kind of a bugger, whatever.
Maybe he didn’t say a lot, but everything he said just gave me like chills.
Just like creepy.
Okay.
Estimate of his age?
He would have been in his 50s probably.
Okay.
Okay.
And never had kids, never been married, for obvious reasons.
And then he gets this bride from South America, I think.
Did you ever see her?
She was attractive.
Younger, much younger.
And a lot more attractive.
Really attractive, yes.
Okay.
So he’s skirting.
No doubt about it.
Okay.
And then he gets her pregnant.
And I think they have one or two kids.
And I’m not kidding you.
I had to ask like how does that happen?
Like if a dick’s this big and your belly’s this big, like how does that happen like physically?
You do it on an incline.
So like- What do you mean?
Like the fat rolls like you, you know, an incline.
Like you incline down so the fat rolls down and then she can get on top.
So he has to lie back- And incline backwards, go backwards.
The man is so fat that there’s no way, it’s just not possible that his penis could reach
the vagina.
Because the fat overflows to the penis.
Right.
It was like a double gut.
It’s not accessible.
No, it’s not accessible.
I have a really important question.
Okay.
How did you find out this information?
Well, I just asked.
He kind of volunteered it.
Like you do it on an incline.
And I was like, okay, well that, I mean, that kind of enlightens- So he says you do it on
an incline.
Right.
It’s an incline.
Okay.
And I didn’t get- Several more questions.
Further details on that, but I figured it out like the fat rolls up.
You crack the case.
I crack the case.
So they have the two kids and then there’s a divorce.
No, he dies, luckily for her.
Yes.
Yes.
He ended up dying.
So she got all the money.
How did you know she was a mail order?
Well, because she was from a foreign country and it like, he went over there, he came back
with the wife.
We just assumed it was a mail order.
Like I never said, did you mail order this?
So again, you crack the case.
I crack the case.
Like you go to a foreign country, you come back with this young, beautiful wife.
You’re fat as a pig and you have money.
I mean, it’s not that big of a leap that it was a mail order thing.
You are, I mean- Crackerjack.
The prowess of your deduction skills is unbelievable.
Right.
And that was before the internet.
Just snail mail.
I figured it out just from U.S. Postal Service.
You backed it.
You figured out about the incline.
Right.
Which I thought was a direct question, which I’m really kind of proud of you for that.
Well, I skirted around it enough that he volunteered it.
And then I just vividly remember the incline in my mind in that moment.
Like, oh God, that would be awful.
And I think by all accounts, she was lovely.
You and I watched this documentary yesterday about mail order brides.
And a lot of the men that were featured in the documentary didn’t appear to be rich.
Interestingly enough, yes.
I’m wondering if like, I mean, obviously, and we’re going to have our guest on shortly
and we’ll ask him about this, if, you know, middle class American for some of these women
that they get is for them, you know, would be considered really wealthy.
And I would assume so.
I would assume that would have to be the case.
Let me ask you this.
Would you ever consider mail order husbands?
Um, let me think about that.
No.
Mm-mm.
Uh-uh.
No.
Would you like to get on the mail order husband website and browse around?
I probably would.
I mean, I like, my friends that have Bumble and stuff, I’ll look at that, just kind of
out of interest.
Yeah.
I mean, I do.
It is interesting that mail order, I mean, I remember in the 80s, by snail mail, hearing
about mail order brides.
And then now with the internet, it makes it so easy.
I find it fascinating that these men are skirting the system like they are.
And like your guy that’s morbidly obese, I, when I have to get naked or, you know,
think about being sexual, I want to feel and look good.
But for these men, they don’t, they just take the clothes off and plop down on an incline
and let’s go.
Right?
Right.
Right.
I mean, there’s no, there’s just no.
There’s no self-consciousness.
It doesn’t appear.
Right.
If I got on a website and there’s like a Brad Pitt lookalike, I’m not going to immediately
see him.
Oh, he’s going to like me.
He’s 20 years younger and he’s got a rock hard body and he’s great looking.
So obviously I’m the candidate for him.
You know, there has to be some self-awareness about what you’re bringing to the table.
Right.
I’m sure he probably, in his mind, thought he was rescuing her from something bad in
her home country.
I mean, I don’t know that, but I would assume he felt like that.
But I also think you get into the, if you’re mail order briding it, there’s an ownership
thing that creeps me out on that.
Yes.
Like it’s a possession.
It goes from a person to a possession or that they owe you because you brought them to the
United States.
And here’s what kind of creeps me out.
It’s like, these women are so vulnerable, obviously, to be on a mail order website.
I mean, you’re talking about really, really vulnerable, marginalized women.
And these men live in a country that has 340 million people in it, which would be the United
States of America.
Right.
No shortage of human beings here.
And so they’re going and retrieving these women and bringing them back.
And just from the onset, my gut tells me these men probably are pretty fucked up.
No psychiatry degree needed.
I’m just thinking, you know, these men are probably sitting around looking at porn their
whole fucking lives.
That’s why they’re not dating in their own country.
So by the time they get these women, can you imagine what these women have to go through?
Is there a human trafficking kind of component to it, even though they’re both adults?
You and I watched this documentary in preparation for this episode.
Right.
And this is a documentary by Jonathan Narducci.
And the title of his documentary is called Love Me.
And why are you laughing at me?
No, just the title of the documentary about mail-order brides is Love Me.
I think it’s kind of funny.
Okay.
Jonathan Narducci is a commercial music video and documentary director and cinematographer.
He is the director of the documentary, which we watched yesterday, called Love Me, about
men searching for mail-order brides overseas.
I have so many questions.
I can’t wait to ask.
So many questions.
So without further ado, let’s bring on Jonathan Narducci.
Oh, there we go.
Hi, Jonathan.
Hi.
Hi, Jonathan.
Can you guys hear me and everything okay?
Yes.
I’m Jennifer and this is Angie.
Thanks for being here.
Okay.
So first of all, I want to say that we watched your documentary and I loved it.
So interesting.
It’s really, really interesting because for years, I call Angie her nickname is Pumps.
So for years, we have always talked about men that skirt the system.
That if you think about other species out in the wild, you’re never going to have the
hottest gorilla going after the geriatric gorilla to breed.
But in our species, men, by virtue of bank accounts or Viagra, are able to kind of skirt
nature’s desire for us to pick the best mate for ourselves.
Yeah.
But I mean, a bank account is a good indication of somebody’s ability to provide, right?
Agree.
We’ve seen the documentary.
If you will just summarize a few minutes what your documentary is about and the men that
you followed, and then we’ll dive in with questions so our audience kind of knows what
the plot of your documentary is.
Yeah, sure.
No problem.
About 10 years ago, I pursued a documentary following men from the United States who went
to Ukraine on what’s called a love tour.
And these love tours are basically, you know, like a, I don’t know, like a vacation for
single men to meet women that are also single in Ukraine.
And so it’s kind of like a modern mail-order bride.
We’d follow these men on their quest to meet women for the good, the bad and the ugly.
For the most part, not a lot of people connected or met women.
And they have these things, which I think you’re referring to, they’re called, they’re
like social events where there’s basically, you know, like 10 to 20 women for every man
there.
So it’s kind of like this weird, it’s definitely skirting a normal system.
Right.
It’s like shooting fish in a barrel.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Especially with the people participating.
So the results were pretty interesting.
From our perspective, in my perspective, it was very, very surreal and kind of funny,
you know.
It also could be viewed as kind of sad too.
I mean, we were locked in.
It is so good for those of you that haven’t seen it.
It’s a great watch.
What Jonathan is talking about is these men go over and they go to these parties and the
ratio is way in the man’s favor.
So we have right out of the gates a bunch of questions.
So the women that arrive to the party, what are they told and are they paid to go to the
party?
I don’t believe that they’re paid to go.
So you have to understand, in Ukraine, I would say the biggest tourism is this kind of international
male tour.
Really?
Yeah.
So when you’re walking in the center of Kyiv or any of these other cities that you go to,
you’ll see advertisements for marriage agencies.
And it’s a massive industry that’s been set up and kind of facilitated in that country.
Now, the reality is, is that it’s a tourism thing.
It’s a tourist trap in a lot of ways.
It’s not really part of the reality of what is actually happening from the female perspective.
The company I worked with was based in the United States.
It’s called a Foreign Affair and they basically have affiliates is what they call them.
So they hire local to each city companies that provide profiles of women, whether those
profiles are accurate, real, or anything in between is up for debate.
But basically, they provide some kind of service to write the men and correspond.
And that’s where most of the money is exchanged.
So that was interesting, because I think his name was Bobby.
Bobby, I thought the big reveal when he is messaging with this woman who he thinks is
an Angelina Jolie lookalike.
And to our listener, this man describes himself, he says, let’s face it, I’m a little on the
heavier side.
And the woman that he’s kind of pen palling with email wise is, I mean, she’s very attractive.
Stunning.
Great body.
And the photos of these women, I mean, they’ve got, I mean, banging bodies, no doubt about
it.
Very attractive.
And they’re really attractive.
Yes.
But women are hyper sexualized for sure.
So Bobby is totally, he’s been emailing with this woman, and he goes to Ukraine and he
thinks that she’s going to show up and she kind of stands him up one night and he’s kind
of incredulous.
He’s like, we’ve been emailing.
And then you reveal to the viewer that he’s being charged for each email and has racked
up a bill, a bill of something like $9,000.
He’s living in some kind of fantasy.
And I mean, I think to anyone that lives in a modern world, even though this is 10 years
ago, there’s still a Skype.
You know what I mean?
He could easily, if he actually had a connection with a human being, they would have wanted
to see each other.
I mean, if you’re, you know, for instance, if I’m, you know, online dating, the first
thing I’ll do is have a FaceTime with somebody, you know, it’s so, you know, in reality, it
was a form of entertainment, a form of fantasy, some kind of world that he was able to live
in where he was communicating with this image, this object.
And that’s what a lot of what’s going on, I think, is that there’s a lot of objectification
and kind of taking the humanity out of the women that are there, just hyper-sexualized
beautiful women that want to marry these men.
We pretty early on could tell that there was something not right about this process.
So they’re basically mining these photos of these women, creating profiles, and, you know,
somebody’s writing to them.
Okay.
Probably a bunch of men writing to like 10 dudes at a time.
Right.
Exactly.
That’s what I thought.
When Bobbi was like, she was writing to me and I’m like, she’s probably not writing to
you, Bobbi.
I mean, that’s what I was kind of saying.
Or she’s making money, so she’s writing to you.
What was the guy’s name from Wisconsin?
I think he was from the guy from Wisconsin and he makes a connection with this woman.
Okay.
So then he goes back to the United States and he gets his engagement ring and then he
goes back to the Ukraine and he’s like, something’s off here.
And then he says a loan shark and a cop showed up at the door and said that she owed the
loan shark $4,000.
And I said, I don’t have $4,000.
And I said, well, we’re going to take her to jail.
How much do you have?
And he said, a couple hundred.
I have $200.
So he gave him the $200.
And then you flash to this guy back in Wisconsin and he’s still trying to crack the case and
it kind of quite hasn’t come together for him that it was a racket.
The loan shark, the cop, and his potential fiance were all in cahoots.
I was so incredulous that he couldn’t piece all of that together because I pieced it together
immediately.
You’re getting hustled.
This is a classic hustle.
You just got hustled.
But do you think it is like they talk about love and so do you think these men are, which
is this is the sad part of your documentary where it tugs on a bunch of different emotions
that you feel for the characters that you have in there.
Do you think that they like, of course, sex is a huge driving component for any man, let’s
just face it.
But do you think that they are looking for a long term connection?
I mean, they might be.
Either way, they all feel some entitlement, right?
Right.
I agree.
I think that he did genuinely want a partner.
I’m not sure that’s the case with all of the men that I followed or all of the certainly
not all the men on the tour.
The majority of them, you know, when when I was going on my first tour, there’s like,
let’s say there’s 10 guys.
I think there’s usually 20 or 30.
Like I would say on day one on their way over, there’s probably about eight out of 10 guys
who are thinking they’re going to go home with a engagement and a woman that they that
they will love them for being who they are and what they are.
Right.
And the rest of the guys of that 10 are probably on a sex tour.
OK.
Under the guise of a marriage tour, you know, going straight to the hotel for prostitution,
which is, by the way, everywhere.
So it’s not like Ukraine is obviously a sex tourist place as well.
So marriage tourism, sex tourism, all of that, all the tourists that are using using women
for their bodies.
And so about after that first night and then going out, that paradigm shifts and there’s
maybe two guys out of the 10 on the first night leftover that are still interested in
meeting a woman.
And I think Travis was one of those guys.
And that, you know, it took a long time to find those men that were actually genuinely
interested in and didn’t get like kind of allured by the sex that’s so easy to have.
So these women are are they having sex with these men after the socials or whatever?
I think there’s I think there’s probably some sex that happens at the socials.
I think that mostly what happens is it’s like and talking about how women make money is
probably through like little kind of hustles, I would say, for the most part there.
You know, we’re talking about a country where there are, you know, women obviously don’t
make as much as men.
There’s not a great economy.
There’s a lot of things that are great about Ukraine, but there’s a lot of things as far
as like socioeconomic things, especially for women that make it really hard.
And so if they just get a really nice dinner at a really high end restaurant with champagne,
that’s a little hustle.
If they go out and they buy them a computer or a bottle of perfume or a dress or whatever
it is, that’s a little hustle.
The men in your documentary didn’t appear by their homes because you filmed them in
the United States, too.
They didn’t look to be rich nor attractive.
Yeah, I mean, there is, you know, there’s one, you know, we tried to like show a variety
of people.
For example, Bobby, he, you know, he’s probably fairly well off.
I thought it was fascinating when like the guy that’s like the romance night liaison,
he goes, these men that come over here, they’re looking for women, and these women are family
women.
These aren’t career women, that that was like, that was a selling point, you know, that being
a career woman was such a bad thing.
For our audience that’s listening, one of the guys finds love, brings his quote unquote
mail order bride back to Texas, and they get married.
Do you think they were in love?
To me, it seemed pretty obvious that it was like a relationship based on, you know, two
people wanting to be married, probably to some degree, ambition from both their parts.
Right.
Ambition from Eric, the man, to have a woman that maybe has traditional values and is beautiful.
No, she was definitely, he outkicked his coverage for sure.
Yeah, and ambition for Ina, who’s, I gotta say, it seemed to me pretty intelligent.
By the time I had gone back to San Antonio, where they lived, within three months, she
was speaking English.
So she’s definitely like, you know, an ambitious, really intelligent woman.
You know, I’m, I can safely say they’re not married anymore.
Oh, plot twist.
Four of the couples I followed ended up getting married and none of them are married anymore.
As a woman, and when I watched it, I think about these men that you followed, and I think
that they probably have, you know, social problems, you know, socializing with people.
And I imagine that they probably lived a lifetime of watching a lot of porn.
And then they get the hot, you know, tight ass, everything’s completely banging girl.
And as a woman, I imagine what that woman has to go through with someone that’s not
as attractive as she, and it pains me.
As a woman, I see that she’s like, look, I’m going to get out of here.
I’m going to have to, I’m going to have to sleep with him, but I’m gonna go to America.
I’m going to get an education.
And this was my journey.
And this is what I’m going to have to do.
I can respect it.
Yeah, I mean, and who knows if that’s like what the intention was, or if it was premeditated
that way.
Right.
It might have been something very different.
It might have been like, wow, I get to go to America.
Like, I think you have to realize like the women there are hyper sexually, like objects
and the men really don’t try to do anything.
You know, they’re skirting the system, Jonathan, these men are skirting, they’re a culture.
So to you and to me, yeah, so to you and me, it might be skirting a system or institutionalized
skirting.
Social and institutional and, you know, things of all kinds of nature.
And, you know, who knows?
Things change.
And, you know, I think probably you don’t have a kid with somebody if you don’t have
to, you know, unless you live in Oklahoma where we live and they just did a total abortion
ban.
So people have to have kids all the time here.
Oh, yeah.
And so I think that she probably did put her best foot forward and, you know, ultimately,
she became more aware of what’s in America and maybe her value and her intelligence and
her beauty.
And those things might have not been aligned with what she was seeing on the other side.
And I could also say that she might have figured out that he might have been skirting the system
after being Americanized for a bit.
Definitely.
You know, she might have been like, I’m pretty hot.
Tall blonde.
Right.
I’m tall.
I’m gorgeous.
And so you’re kind of answering the, you know, or rebooting what you’re saying by skirting
the system.
Who’s skirting the system?
They are.
Ultimately, the women who come over and end up becoming successful and ultimately raising
their own lifestyle are the ones skirting the system.
The men end up thinking that they’re going to get a woman and it’s the reverse reverse
skirt.
It’s the reverse skirt.
So ultimately, you know, it’s like, you know, these, you know, you can look at it either
way, but it’s, you know, I, I think without a doubt, the whole thing is kind of like marketing
and, you know, this fictional belief that somehow because you’re from a certain place
that you’re entitled or allowed or can have a genuine relationship with somebody who will
like love you because of that.
And that’s just not the reality.
Jen and Nellie told me that you’re doing, working on a new one, The Ghosts of the Republic.
So I’m at, we’ll watch that one and then we’ll probably have you back on because you have
just like-
That’s about surrogacy.
I know.
I love it.
I know.
It’s so cool.
We’ll talk about skirting the system.
Totally skirting.
A whole new skirt.
Jonathan, thank you so much.
I’m a big, big fan of your work.
I’m going to watch Ghosts of the Republic soon, but thank you so much.
All right.
Bye, Jonathan.
Bye, Jonathan.
Bye, bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Hey, we’re not finished with the podcast.
Sorry, sorry, sorry.
For God’s sake.
Just because he leaves, we still have an audience that’s listening to us.
I know.
I know.
I’m terrible.
Oh, I’m going to leave you with a quote.
I have a quote.
Okay.
Because we are so-
Is it your quote or are you quoting someone else?
Of course I’m quoting someone else.
That’s why-
I mean, you have-
That was a stupid question.
No, because you have great little sayings.
You had a quote yesterday that I loved.
I’m not going to quote myself.
Okay.
Okay.
All right, here it is.
Jonathan is having a Japanese wife, a Chinese cook, a British country home, and an American
salary.
Hell, on the other hand, is having a Chinese salary, a British cook, a Japanese house,
and an American wife.
So straight up misogyny.
Just like, boom.
We want to-
Apparently he was married to you.
All right.
We will, if this is not the funeral of our podcast, we will see you next Tuesday.