Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,

where we discuss science

and science-based tools for everyday life.

I’m Andrew Huberman,

and I’m a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology

at Stanford School of Medicine.

Today is an Ask Me Anything, or AMA, episode,

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Without further ado,

let’s get to answering your questions.

And as always, I will strive to be as accurate as possible,

as thorough as possible,

and yet as concise as possible.

Our first question is about motivation.

In particular, how to maintain motivation

over long periods of time.

This was a question asked by Martin Zokov.

He wrote, I alternate between periods

of two different states that vary from a few weeks

to a couple of months.

I have extremely high motivation in one state

where I can do multiple things,

side projects, making music, as well as my main things,

or really low motivational states

where I can barely do anything

and I only look for short-term entertainment.

I’m guessing short-term entertainment

comes in the form of video games, social media,

and just kind of doing generally unproductive things

as we all do from time to time.

He goes on to write,

what would be the best set of protocols

to normalize those extremes

into a more stable and consistent state?

Well, first off, this is an excellent question.

I say that because it’s a question that I hear a lot.

And I think that many people are interested in knowing

how motivated they ought to feel

and I think a lot of people

also feel a lot less motivated than they would like.

Now, here, the question was specifically

about how to not go from these extremes

of days or weeks of high motivation

to days or weeks of low motivation.

But before we do that,

we need to take a step back and acknowledge

that just as with anxiety or happiness or sadness,

we as human beings don’t have an objective window

into how other people experience motivation.

In fact, most of the time,

we don’t even realize how we experience motivation.

We just know whether or not we feel a high barrier

or a low barrier to leaning into work

and getting things done.

In fact, I have a good friend

who did many years in the special operations community

and then went on to the finance community

and then now works in health and wellness community.

He has a great and a mental image for all of us to adopt.

It’s certainly one that I’ve adopted,

which is for anything in our life,

we can either be back on our heels,

flat-footed or forward center of mass.

Back on our heels meaning really struggling,

flat-footed meaning that we’re doing okay

or forward center of mass,

meaning that we feel as if we’re really tackling things

and that we are in control of our environment

or at least to some degree.

So I place that imagery in your mind

because I’ll return to it a little bit later in the question

when we get into some of the underlying circuitry and tools.

In the meantime, I want to remind everybody

what the basis of motivation is.

There are many neurochemicals and neural circuits

involved in what we call motivation,

but a central theme of the neuroscience of motivation

is that the neuromodulator dopamine is involved.

Now dopamine does other things besides control motivation.

In fact, it controls light adaptation in the retina.

That is your eye.

It controls a number of different things

in terms of movement.

It controls all sorts of things,

but it is strongly related to the motivation pathways.

How do we know that?

Well, there are experiments on animals and humans

which show that even in the absence of dopamine

or in the presence of very low dopamine, I should say,

people and animals can still experience pleasure.

However, when dopamine levels are too low,

people’s ability to pursue pleasure

or their willingness to pursue pleasure,

in particular their willingness to undergo effort

to pursue pleasure or any goal of any kind,

not just pleasure, any goal of any kind

is strongly regulated by the levels of dopamine.

So if dopamine levels are too low,

people simply will not put in the effort

to obtain or reach a goal.

If dopamine levels are adequately high,

they will put in that effort.

And if dopamine levels go too high,

you actually see something that is pathologic,

which is that people consider every goal a reasonable goal.

This is often seen in the manic phase

of a manic bipolar person.

So for instance, somebody with manic bipolar

who’s in the manic episode,

dopamine levels are very, very high

and they will think every idea is a great idea

and they will have tons of energy to do that

so much so that they’re not sleeping.

So obviously that’s not what we want.

What we want and what the question asker Martin

is asking about is how to keep dopamine levels

in a range that allow us to lean into effort,

but that we don’t expend our ability to stay motivated.

And we can really trace that back

to a biochemical slash neural circuit statement,

which is we really want to control our output of dopamine

and the baseline levels of dopamine

from which that output is taken.

In other words, we want to think about dopamine

as a reservoir or residing in a reservoir.

That reservoir can be depleted.

So it’s exhaustible, it’s depletable,

but it’s renewable as well.

And one of the best analogies that I’ve ever heard

was by a previous guest on the Huberman Lab Podcast,

Dr. Kyle Gillette, who’s a medical doctor,

obesity specialist, expert in hormones.

We did a episode on optimizing hormones in males

with Dr. Kyle Gillette.

You can find that at hubermanlab.com

or anywhere you can find podcasts.

Dr. Gillette offered an analogy of the baseline levels

of dopamine as a wave pool.

And I really like this.

So if you think about this pool full of dopamine,

and here we’re just talking about the dopamine

that resides in the circuits of the brain

that control motivation, but that pool of dopamine,

you can imagine is just sitting there,

not doing much of anything while you’re asleep.

In fact, while you’re sleeping,

you’re replenishing those dopamine levels.

I’ll tell you another tool in a moment

to replenish those dopamine levels.

But if you were to pursue a goal,

really, really go forward center of mass

for many, many hours or many, many days in some cases,

and pursue a goal or multiple goals,

and you’re really driven to do a ton,

what you’re effectively doing is generating waves

in that wave pool.

And if those waves are too big,

well, then the waves can’t keep repeating themselves.

So think about the wave as the motivation

and the depth of the pool as the reservoir of dopamine.

And if those waves are too big, too much excitement,

too much motivation, too much center of mass

for a given period of time,

then the water in this wave pool sloshes out

of the wave pool, lowering the reservoir.

And then there are really three ways

that you can replenish that reservoir.

And you want to maintain or replenish that reservoir

if it’s been depleted.

How do you do that?

Well, first of all, quality sleep.

So when I say quality, I mean,

where you’re getting enough slow wave sleep

and rapid eye movement sleep.

So for some people, six hours, for some people, eight hours,

some people might even need a little bit more

or a little bit less.

We have episodes, the Perfect Your Sleep episode,

the Master Your Sleep episode.

We have a toolkit for sleep, all available at zero cost

at hubermanlab.com, links, et cetera.

So check those out for getting your sleep right.

But sleep is really when you replenish

that reservoir of dopamine.

So you cannot ignore sleep.

I’ll come back to this in a moment.

The second science-supported tool

that’s really been shown to replenish dopamine,

in particular, dopamine within the pathways

that regulate motivation,

is a practice I’ve talked about before on the podcast

called non-sleep deep rest, sometimes called yoga nidra,

although yoga nidra is a little bit different.

There are two studies out of Denmark

that have explored yoga nidra in the context of dopamine.

The first one simply involved having people

do a yoga nidra practice.

Again, this doesn’t involve any movement,

but involves people, potentially you,

doing anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes,

although there are now data showing that

as short as 10 minutes of a non-sleep deep rest,

aka yoga nidra protocol,

leads to dramatic, really dramatic increases

in striatal dopamine reserves.

So it essentially is replenishing the dopamine reserve pool.

This is why I’m such a fan of using NSDR, aka yoga nidra,

at least once a day, and especially under times

when you’re engaging in a lot of high output.

And when I say, especially at times

when you’re engaging in a lot of high output,

this is a mistake many people make.

They push, push, push, push, push.

They’re in pursuit of a goal.

Then they hit that point where they’re exhausted.

Then they start doing all the dopamine reserve pool,

replenishing tools, such as yoga nidra or NSDR.

The real key is to always tap off that

or refill that reservoir once a day

before it’s completely depleted.

Now this gets into some of the biochemistry of dopamine

and the relevant circuits,

but it takes a lot longer to restore the dopamine reservoir.

Think of it still as a wave pool,

but that reservoir from a place of complete depletion

than it does of partial depletion.

So there’s an asymmetry in the way this is done.

So it’s not as if, you know, you drink a glass of water,

you fill the glass of water at a certain rate

and it fills up to a certain level and the rate is constant.

Think about it as once the level of dopamine

in your reserve is depleted past a certain point,

it takes a lot more effort, much more sleep,

much more NSDR, things of that sort

to replenish that reservoir.

Now, oftentimes what people will do

when they start feeling less motivation

is they will start relying on things like Adderall,

Ritalin, some cases illegal substances

that can increase dopamine.

You know what those are.

Please don’t ever lean to those.

They are extremely dangerous.

They really are because of their ability

to potently release dopamine.

And guess what?

Deplete that reservoir even further.

We’ve talked about some supplements on the podcast

that can replenish dopamine.

L-tyrosine in particular.

Mecunopurines is actually 99% L-DOPA,

the precursor to dopamine.

I don’t necessarily recommend Mecunopurines.

It tends to make people very dopaminergic,

drive, drive, drive, drive, motivated, and then crash.

Again, depleting that pool.

L-tyrosine is a little bit milder,

but I really encourage people to lean first

on the behavioral tools such as NSDR.

And by the way, there’s a NSDR script,

totally zero cost that you can find

by putting my name and NSDR into YouTube.

That one works quite well

if you’re looking for a short NSDR.

There’s some other NSDRs.

You can simply look on the internet or YouTube

and just put NSDR and you’ll find NSDR.

Or if you prefer to do

the more classic yoga nidra type approach,

there are a lot of different yoga nidra options

to choose from on YouTube.

Many people think NSDR or yoga nidra

are simply meditation with a body scan.

That’s not true.

Meditation is a focus exercise.

Okay, most meditations are focus exercise.

NSDR restores energy through the dopamine system

and newer data are starting to show

that it can actually recover lost sleep.

So if you’re not sleeping enough.

But to return to NSDR, aka yoga nidra as a practice,

yes, it’s been shown in laboratory studies,

in humans, by the way, to restore dopamine levels.

There’s another study lesser known

from that same group that was published in 2011,

which is entitled Dopaminergic Stimulation

Enhances Confidence and Accuracy

in Seeing Rapidly Presented Words.

This was a cognitive task.

They explored yoga nidra, aka NSDR,

in the context of increasing striatal dopamine.

They already knew that it did that.

So that’s great.

They confirmed that result.

But what they also found is that doing NSDR

could restore confidence in cognitive ability

and performance in these cognitive tasks.

Okay, so this is a really powerful zero cost tool

for re-upping or replenishing that dopamine reserve.

Okay, so this is something to do every day,

especially when you’re not feeling depleted.

So the question again was about how to make sure

that you don’t go through these cycles

of extreme motivation and then lesser motivation.

Well, get your sleep right.

I would say 80% or more of the nights of your life,

hopefully the nights that it’s not good

or for good reasons that you’re enjoying yourself,

but hey, life happens.

So 100% of the time is just not reasonable

to expect of yourself.

Do NSDR once a day for either 10 minutes.

If you have the time to do 20, 30 minutes or an hour,

you will see even more positive effects.

It has been shown in these research studies

to replenish dopamine, levels of confidence,

cognitive ability, et cetera, and sense of motivation.

And I said there were three tools.

And the third tool that really can allow you

to keep the dopamine, aka motivation circuitry

tuned up properly is to really start paying attention

to peaks in dopamine and be very careful

about layering in too many things

that can stimulate the dopamine system.

I talked about this quite a bit in the episode

that we did on ADHD and building and maintaining focus.

There are many things out there nowadays

that will deplete the dopamine system.

For instance, and by the way,

none of what I’m about to list is necessarily bad.

I actually use some of these things.

For instance, caffeine will increase dopamine receptors

that will allow whatever dopamine is available

to be more potent.

Okay, so caffeine’s great for some people,

less good for people with anxiety.

Don’t drink it too late in the day

because it’ll interfere with your sleep

and so on and so forth.

But many people will combine caffeine

with music that they particularly like.

Music’s great.

Music can stimulate dopamine release.

We know this.

It can enhance motivation,

especially if it’s the kind of music

that really puts you in the groove

for the particular type of work you’re going to do.

For me, I like to listen to either loud, fast music

or Glenn Gould classical piano.

So one or the other.

I know what’s right for me for a given time.

You’ll know what’s right for you

for a given time in your preferences.

But what will happen is people will start consuming caffeine

at higher and higher levels.

Again, caffeine isn’t necessarily bad,

but they’ll start doing that

and they’ll start layering it in

or stacking very potent music, potent for them,

plus things like L-tyrosine.

Again, none of these things are terrible on their own.

In fact, they can be very beneficial.

Sometimes they’ll start taking mucuna purine.

Sometimes they’ll start relying on things

like Adderall, Ritalin.

And pretty soon what’s happening

is they’re getting these big waves

in that dopamine wave pool, big peaks.

And within a few days, or maybe even within a few hours,

they’re depleted and they’re at that low.

And then as Dr. Anna Lembke,

who was a guest on the podcast,

talked about in terms of addiction,

but also in her wonderful book, Dopamine Nation,

what happens is after those big peaks in dopamine,

the reservoir, the baseline in dopamine

drops below its initial level.

So it’s as if the reservoir got deeper and it’s emptier

and it takes much, much longer to fill.

Okay, so to be quite specific,

what I’m recommending is get your sleep right,

ideally every night of your life,

but for as many nights of your life as possible.

That’s clearly replenishing dopamine

and sense of motivation.

Do all the things associated with that.

Morning sunlight, lack of artificial light

at certain hours of the night, et cetera.

All of that’s in the toolkit for sleep

and other episodes I mentioned before.

Have a practice that is research supported

to replenish dopamine and incorporate that practice

any time of day.

Again, NSDR can be done morning, afternoon, or evening,

or middle of the night if you wake up

and you need to get back to sleep,

it can be very beneficial for that.

But do it as a consistent practice

so that dopamine reservoir remains tapped off.

And as a third point, please be wary of,

or at least aware of these peaks in dopamine

and the fact that layering in a lot of things

that stimulate dopamine,

while that can be wonderful for your wedding,

a birth of a new child,

going to a sports event with a bunch of friends,

celebrating a big anniversary.

Yes, please do celebrate and enjoy

the wonderful events of life.

But please also understand and expect there will be a lull,

a sort of postpartum low,

maybe not full-blown depression that follows that

unless you incorporate some tools and practices

to replenish that dopamine.

Does that mean you should never combine

caffeine, L-tyrosine, music,

and a workout in time with friends?

No, absolutely not.

But don’t expect to do that

and then go do an intense bout of work

and then get up the next morning and do it all over again

for more than a few days

before you find yourself pretty depleted.

Okay, so rather than give you a specific schedule of,

you know, do seven days of this and four days of this,

what I encourage you to do is for at least five days a week,

maybe give yourself some time off on the weekends,

maybe not, but for at least five days a week,

get into a consistent routine that is,

I should say, neurobiologically consistent as well

with how the dopamine,

aka circuits that control motivation work.

And I assure you that you will find yourself

in a more regular groove of focus and attention

and alertness and motivation when you need to.

And provided you’re doing all the things I described

and hopefully paying attention to other things

like nutrition and social connection too, of course,

you’ll find a much more even pattern

of motivation over time.

One last thing before I conclude

the answer to this question.

When I was in graduate school,

I got some wonderful advice from an excellent neurologist.

His name is Robert Knight.

He used to be at University of California, Berkeley.

I think he’s retired now,

but is still active in the scientific community.

And I asked him what he was doing that weekend.

I don’t know why this came up.

And he said, oh, I’m going fishing.

I like kind of, you know, mindless recreation.

I said, that’s great.

You know, fishing’s fun.

I’m not particularly into fishing myself,

but I’ve done it a few times and I enjoy it.

And he said, you know, the most important thing

for a science or medicine career or any demanding career.

I said, what?

Like I was all ears.

I was super, you know, super hungry to get in the mix

and, you know, do research and publish papers.

And he said, figure out how many hours a day

you can do real work consistently.

That means five days a week.

For some people, six or seven, but five days a week,

I think for most people is going to be a bit healthier

overall for your social life and family, et cetera.

And he said, figure that out and know that that number

is what you should apply over and over and over again,

but update that number about every four or five years.

And I said, okay, so does that mean that over time

I’m working more and more or less and less?

And he said, ah, here’s the deal.

As you get better at your profession,

you will find that you can do more potent work,

more directed work in a shorter amount of time,

but that does not mean that you can continue to expand

the amount of time that you’re doing focused work.

In fact, the opposite.

So this follows a sort of general principle

that’s also present in resistance training,

you know, weightlifting, right?

The analogy there is that people always imagine

that as you get better and better at resistance training,

you should do more and more volume,

just keep adding volume.

And there’s some evidence to support that,

more volume for hypertrophy as opposed to less, et cetera.

We’ve done episodes on this.

However, there’s a different school of thought

that works exceedingly well,

and it runs in the exact opposite direction,

which is as you get better

at controlling muscular contractions,

or let’s say for in an endurance sport,

as you get better at regulating your stride and breathing

and all those things,

you actually can do more quote-unquote

adaptation stimulating damage

during a given training session.

So you want to train less, not more over time

because beginners don’t actually have the ability

to get much done in a lot of time

or a short period of time,

whereas experts can come in there and really nail it.

So I think that advice that Robert Knight was really key,

and it’s something that I’ve followed throughout my career.

So at one period of my life,

I won’t mention the hours that I worked in graduate school.

They were pretty insane, to be honest.

I had family members get a little concerned.

I actually lived in the laboratory,

even as a junior professor.

I don’t suggest people do that by the way,

but I enjoyed it at the time.

And the key thing is that you figure out

what you can do consistently

and still maintain mental health and physical health.

That’s key as well, and do that.

And then every couple of years or so,

update that typically by reducing the total amount of time

that you’re doing that high potency work.

I think that combined with the other tools

that I described before

for generating ongoing dopaminergic circuits,

keeping that reservoir full

ought to give you consistent motivation.

Again, it’s an art and a practice and a science,

so don’t expect to get it perfect the first time around,

but I wish you all luck,

and I’m certain that these tools work.

Thank you for joining for the beginning

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♪♪