Rituals - E6 • Angel Amulets and Demon Babies

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For those of you that have heard of Lilith Fair, the all-female Music Fest.

I’m curious, how many actually, no, its namesake.

Do you know who Lilith is or who she was?

I guess I’ve heard the name.

I don’t, I know it’s something potentially demonic but then again, so are you so high?


It’s baby a name you go by.

I’m not.

You just switched me.

Yeah, you’re confusing me until it happens.

He’s all the time.

Well, you’re actually not too far off because Lilith is a firecracker of a legend just like me.

By the way.

She’s considered a demon turned feminist.




Sounds like an Instagram bio that I’m going to steal and put in mind.

It’s a demon turn feminist.

Yeah, Steven turn feminist, and we’re also going to talk about how she went from one to the other and her kind of progression.

Oh, wait, hang on.

That’s my autobiography from demon to feminist.




Well, hang on everybody.

I’m gonna go erase Christian to Instagram and try to change my handle before someone takes it.


Hi, everyone, and welcome to rituals a Spotify original from park.

Has I’m Christine Schieffer, and I’m M Schultz and every week, we’ll explore the evolution of spiritualism.

And the Occult through stories practices and the impact on Modern culture.

We are going to talk about Lilith today, talk about an old-school story and how she still lingering around even in my Instagram bio, but in other aspects of pop culture and modern They too.


So let’s crack into it.


We talked a lot about spiritualism on this show and our other show and I wonder, have you ever considered the role of feminism?

Or I guess just women in general in spiritualism.

I’m kind of embarrassed to say, no.

I’ve always just assumed that there’s elements of feminism and all or at least most spiritualities, but I’ve never really done a deep dive into any of them.


I feel like, I think being surrounded by a lot of Growing up in the South.

I often struggle to see the equality aspect of that belief system.

Maybe it’s stamped on in there and I just have my own opinions that are fudging my ability to see it.


But I feel like there is definitely feminism in.

I know Wicca.

I actually just saw a couple tick-tocks come up on my phone yesterday for Hinduism and feminism.

So that’s pretty interesting.

So I bet it is sprinkled in just about every belief system and whether or not I see it as as a me proud.


Oblem, so, ya know it’s hard to say and I think same same thing growing up in Catholic school.

It is very, I feel like I’m too close to it.

To really give it a third-degree like other third party, you know view.

But yeah, it’s a big question.

I’m sure many dissertations have been written about it.


And there are definitely people who are much more well educated in this topic than I am, but I think Lilith is a very good place to start the very beginning, the, you know, what, literally literally, the very beginning.

Start from the top.

Yes, she was very early on.


I interestingly, enough to not learn about Lilith at all in Catholic school.

This is not a thing.

They taught me.

This is not something we covered.

I feel like that’s kind of expected in my mind.

I feel like, like, why would you go to Catholic school for them to teach you about demons or in maybe like, God forbid, the demon sounds like an interesting story and you latch onto that one, you know, I don’t know.


Good point.

They don’t want you to relate to it, you know, which It’s too late for me and my Instagram, but you know what?

I mean, like, they don’t want you to be connected.

I guess that’s true, but they do teach you like all the it’s supposed to be sort of a cautionary tale.

So you’d think they would try and teach it as like, you know, don’t be like her.


Oh, I don’t know.

Yeah, you know, I never really learned about it.

I guess we probably learned more of the New Testament stuff.

So, maybe that’s why, but so I don’t, I honestly didn’t know much about Lilith either except that she was, she intimidated a lot of People I know that and still does.



So you learned from Catholic school.

I learned about Lilith through True Blood.

So, all I know is that she is the creator of vampires or she’s the very first vampire or something.

So, slim to nothing education over here.


I don’t know if park has fact Checkers are really gonna be super on board with that one.


They do have they not watched the incredible True Blood.

She was in fact the creator of vampires or something like that, but I actually, I just looked up the word Lilith.

I means jackals are wild beasts.


Yeah, she’s sort of a demonic force to be reckoned with, but also an icon, you know, sure.


Let’s find out.

I’ll tell you why.

Well, in Jewish folklore, the most popular origin stories about Lilith say that she was the first wife of Adam.

Ak, Adam and Eve.

And I guess Eve was the, you know, runner-up drama.

Hang on a second.

So okay.


This is interesting because you would think Maybe this is why they don’t teach us in Catholic school because it’s currently with no biblical knowledge.

It seems like someone got divorced.

Oh, hang on or at least had an extramarital affair.

Like there’s which drawn, literally forbid.


So the first Eve story.

So like, Lilith being of the first Eve says that Lilith and Adam were both created by God from dust.

Something Lilith saw as a sign of equality between the two of them, 100% back.

On that, I got it.

I get it.

I’m on board, Your Dust ain’t special.


You know, your dust is my desk.

As you just saw the same.

They both were put into the Garden of Eden to live.

But while Lil is saw them as equals.

Adam tried to come off as dominant.

What hang on.

Since the beginning of time men have tried to come off as dominant water.


Is the shock in your voice.

Oh my God, you can hear a pin drop.

I am just okay, moving on.

So The to didn’t see eye-to-eye.

So Lilith left the garden to be independent.


Well, but love that for her.

However, Adam was kind of an arc and he ran to God to complain because he was like, she left me in one of the boss around.


Oh, no.

So God said that I’m not having this Behavior.

So I’m going to send Three Angels to go after her and try and Wrangle her back.

Oh, so God’s on Team Alpha Male, okay.


Thanks Lee, am so like on page three.


I’m already having doubts about the Bible.

Moving on.

I know, once again, you’re shocked.

I can hear it.

So God sends Three Angels after her and at first I was like, oh, and then I was like, wait a second, biblically accurate.

Angels are very scary.


Especially Old Testament ones.

Oh, have you heard about that?

No, I’m I say have you heard about that?

Like, have you heard the gossip about biblical angels?

I don’t know.

I don’t know why.

Hey Like that, but if it were the sole of Gossip, I would 100% have known more earlier than today, but I was blinded by The Stereotype that Angels carry of being 100% pure and innocent and kind and life-saving and like a little cherubs.


So, cherubs know, they’re very frightening.

They’re very gigantic.

They’re like God’s henchmen basically, who.

Okay, and so he sends three of his angels after her literally to go Wrangle her back and the I told her if she didn’t come back, they’d kill 100 of her children every day until she returned.


Okay, religion is whack everybody.

Because, well, first of all, why did God needs, isn’t he God?

Can’t he just pick her up from his little permissible Sims property and just drop her back at the Garden.

Okay, and I had the exact same thought.

I was like just take the ladder out of the pool.


Put her in there.

Why are these Three Angels more powerful than you or are you just too fucking lazy to handle one of their not?

One of your two people on Earth, you’re too lazy to go help that but then you create it, Billy Moore.


Next also was she a Duggar or something?

How did she have 100 children?


Okay, so next awesome.


Keep going.

I know where your questions are, go.

I know I’ve known you long enough to know exactly the process that your brain just went through.

And trust me.

I had the same thought process, so I’m gonna try my best to answer them.


But the one thing I know from Catholic school is sometimes there.

No answers.

And you just have to live with it and it sucks but like it’s just but also do I doubt it or else you’re good.

But also it’s true and you can’t argue with it.

Okay, that sounds completely fair about it all gasp lady about someone silly story.


They did up around a fire.


So the angel said, we will kill 100 of your children every day until you come back to the Garden.

How many?

I’m sorry says.

Wait, what did you say?

Said, know how many?

Okay, if you have 100 Kids, I’m not you.


Okay, you have how many children where 100 are just worth the killing like where you’re like, oh, that’s just a that’s chump change right there.

I’m sure kids.

I got a million more.

Like where did all these children come from?

I thought there was like, two people on Earth.



From the research that I did because I had these same questions that I went.

Just, anybody have an answer.

I should have known better, but I went and I started digging around in some academic theological texts and I Here Cubs Socrates pristine and soccer team is what I like to go by.


Okay, that’s my other Instagram, handle and a burner account, my fin stuff.

I read that the Angels found her in a cave, bearing children.

And I was like, that doesn’t answer any of my questions made.

In fact, her dad’s a few more.


That’s a couple did she.

So hang on was so good.

So did she go from?

Zero kids to having a little pregnant belly of way, more than 100 babies.

You’ve got to have more than 100.

If the threat is 100 day.

They’d like to have come in and just just been, like, stepping over little, newborns should be like, whoa, 100, half to go.


It’s like, we went from no population to overpopulation like that, like that, and they didn’t even have formula back that.

I don’t know what she was doing.

I don’t know.

I honestly, I could have figured out.

I’m sure there are some very smart, feel low.

And out there who have the answer.

Unfortunately, I do not, but they threaten this, and she was like, no thanks.


I’m still not interested.

Yeah, but she wanted Revenge.

Okay, so she’s going to get rid of her revenge on on the unfair, the unjust system, which to be fairy has been pretty unjust toward her so far.

Again, there’s two people so far and the system is rigged.

Just put it.


Yes, sir.


Precisely already, like we’re starting off already as a foot behind a step behind hot to trot.

So to go Revenge, the story now goes that little Lilith became the one responsible for taking the lives of other people’s children.

So, so SIDS, for example, like any sort of Sids related that with which just feels extremely.


Wow, dark.

And not something that I feel like the church should get.

I was about to say the church shouldn’t get a vault.

Anyway, this is dumbest thing.

I ever thought and said not helpful commentary on my part.

I apologize, but she did agree with the angels.


She agreed not to kill the children who had Let’s of either of the Three Angels Material Girl.

Okay, hang on.

I’m so is this my brother talking or something?

Like, give them a charm bracelet and then they’ll be fine.

I don’t know.

By the way.


Like not really any better though.

Like to go from a mom, who’s like, who cares, if a hundred of my babies die till like only the ones with suitable jewelry will be spared.

Love Mommy Dearest like what but the jewelry it’s an amulet of the Three Angels that came to attack her or not attack her I guess.


But like well I attack her.


Threatened her children to drag her back to the Garden, I guess.


To like appease them like to give them a little pedestal.

I think.

Yes, I think it was to appease them.

She said, you know if they have these amulets they will remain unharmed and remind me are.


There are there digital prints somewhere at the beginning of time of these angels to put in an amulet.

How are children supposed to obtain the ambulant?

Are, they?

I got little quests after school with the words.

Are they welding?


Amulets together a little lock it?

A sibling bonding experience.

It’s a locket of the 10 foot tall henchmen angel.

I don’t know, you know, I don’t really know.

Are they just there?

Expected should draw.

Can you imagine if you told your child draw a stick, figure of an Angel and put it in the amulet and then, hopefully, it looks good enough or else you die.


I have the shoot where their names I How do you take a picture of the, are their salaries?

I have their names.

Are you ready?

I see I was going to say it but then I didn’t want to because they’re really wild names and I but I’m going to try it.

Okay, uh-huh.


So the three angels that went after Lilith their names are sending boy.

Hmm Sansa noi and some angle off.

Two out of three rhyme with annoy, which is what’s happening right now.

Just say no with you and me.

Also, I was making a joke about a selfie a second.


And now I’m like, wait a minute.

If it’s just Lilith and Three Angels, and several babies, who cannot control a phone, who’s taking a picture, and how are they being posed?

Why is there a picture?

What are you talking about?

They need a picture of these angels in their amulet.

Like what is the think?


It’s not there.

Their picture.

It’s like probably their name like an inscription or something.

Oh, that makes it much more sensible.

But also so much more boring.

I first, I thought there was like a and it’s like a hand run etched portrait on.

Airlock on their little amulet.


Look, none of it makes sense.

So, please don’t come after me right now.

Honestly, I feel in my heart, that some people who know, theology are not very happy with me right now.

When were they call me back?

Excellent point.

So interestingly Lilith actually did try to return to the Garden.



So she went back thinking.

I don’t know what she was thinking.

I can’t pretend to know, but she did go back to the Garden at some point, which is notable because she had left, you know, independent.

Against God’s wishes, sure, but when she came back, she’d been replaced.

Oh, bye Miss, Miss Evelyn.


Miss Thing.

Yeah, as I call her Miss Smith, Miss Miss Eve had taken over, and was the new lady in town to get more of and this is where it gets a little.

I mean, I know it’s already dark.

It’s quite dark so far, but we’re going to get even darker here.

Okay, because to get more Revenge, she decided to quote, steal the seed of Adam.


While he slept.

And I would very much like to be clear her and not Overlook the fact that despite a lot of these texts that I read not mentioning it.

I don’t want to overlook the fact that that is just outright assault Foley.

Sounds non-consensual.


I just want to be clear here.

We’re not overlooking.

The fact that that is definitely a salt and she pulled this stunt to get revenge according to the story and she started giving birth to Earthbound demons.


Yeah, so pulled quite a turn here.


So PSA wants.

More men can also be assaulted be moving.

So I’m not supportive there.

But the second part of it where she’s like creating a bunch of like little hellions to fight back the axles.

I imagine.

I do appreciate her.

Starting some trouble that way.

Like, absolutely as The Tick-Tock sound goes, wait, the girls are fighting.


So I love that.

Love that little.

Wow, so youthful and spry.

I am as the co-host of the show.

I am not yet 30.

And so I’m I’m holding on for as long as I can with my tech-talk clips and that’s probably going to be the most Millennial thing about me and like, five minutes.


I don’t know as you sip your tea.

I am so youthful.

You say, you know, I did get into my chair today like really moaning and groaning about my bed creaking.

We’re gonna go for it.

We are absolutely going to ignore it because I’m also going to tell you that she gave birth to these Earthbound demons to replace.


The children that the Angels killed.

So this was her way of kind of reap.

I guess, populating her cave.

And you know what?

It’s funny.

You say Hellion because I remember when I was pregnant with Leona, you called her, the Hellion in my belly in and I meant it.


So and you meant it and you weren’t wrong, feel, like you want an apology.

But your that is not what’s gonna happen solutely.

Not I.

Once again, I understand your kind of gung-ho miss about the the demon.

Hell-raising that’s going on your little baby.


So sweet.

But like so cute.

Must be a demon like going to cause trouble.

Also doesn’t sleep and I think that definitely puts me in your Camp of Hellion.

Now, out of my belly and you just chose to live with a little parademon.

And that’s you pick that for yourself.


This is some Choice I’ve made.

I mean, you did give her that amulet with your face on it with your selfie in it, you know, she’s going to get more of those too.

Coming up.

The legend of Lilith has been passed down for Generations.

Resulting in religious traditions and feminist movements AKA up.



I will be discussing how much I love True Blood.


So, as I I said Lilith left Adam, and this is like the reek, like, previously on, and then, whatever reality show, we’ve created it out of this story previously on.

Hmm, but we’ll shop, it will shop.

It’s going to have somebody to do with chaos.

It’ll be extremely chaotic.


So as I said, Lilith left Adam and the garden to find her independence.

And when the Angels Came for her, they found her in a cave, bearing children 85,000, if I remember correctly.

And when she refused to go back to the Garden, the Angels threatened to kill 100 of her children.

Day, if she didn’t go back and she said, I still am not going to go back.


And instead what she did was she took the lives of the children herself during the night.

But once the Angels left, she decided to go back and replenish her own belly, her own behavior.

Yes, I see it and sparing those with the ambulance, not the amulet that didn’t work.


But the amulet there’s not enough of those to go around the amulet know.

That one’s all me baby.

Okay, so she really took matters into her own.

Hands, the word chaos.

I know you already said it, but that’s really the only word that really is kind of fitting this story for me right now.


I can understand why at the time or in a religion.

She would be seen as chaos because she certainly not doing anything that was expected.

No, she’s pulling a 180, every few moments.

It seems?

She just seems like a force to be reckoned with, and I could see that being scary, a woman doing anything the first woman.


Oh, they had.

No wonder You would think after this one woman, they be like no more of those.

We got to figure this out.

So it’s too bad.

They need, they need us, you know, to do some other things.

Otherwise, they probably would have said no more, but then, again, aren’t you?

God couldn’t you just redo that?


Couldn’t you just like do a little settings?

System update and like, where you do humans?

And then no one has two need each other.

I don’t know.

Just do a rosebud, rosebud.

Rosebud that actually do that one because that one gets me like a million dollars every time you press Rosebud.

So So yes, I want that one.


God are you listening?

So she tries to go back to the Garden?

She’s already been replaced by Eve, and that’s when she unfortunately, assaults Adam, while he is sleeping.

Feels his seed quote, unquote and uses it to give birth to her little hellions, which are actually called Lil iums liliom.


Oh, I think that was one of the words.

I saw that, man, jackals are wild beasts, which would make sense if they’re there.

Even though that’s their Earthbound, demons is what they are.

It sounds a little like, In a lilium.

Could it have been that they were demonic?

Could this have been one of the arguments at church that, like, they were demonic because they were out of wedlock or because they were not consensual or they weren’t god-honoring children and some way, you know, that’s a good point.


Because, yeah, the Catholic church and historically has not looked kindly upon children, born out of wedlock.

So that.

Yeah, you know, you make a good point there.

I don’t know that.

It was something that was like as important matter back then but yes, I would imagine the fact that Adam and Eve are already an item if you will.


Mmm probably didn’t bode well for but I also sound a little bit like Lilith a decided to have these hellions.

That is true.

See, you know, it sounds like it was almost like she knew what she was doing in.

This was the plan all along.

It wasn’t like.

Oh no, those are hellions.

Not babies.




Right, right.

So it’s hard to say, you know.

Louis Legacy became that of, I guess you could say a baby snatcher.


Disturbing, so that mythology became rooted in religious teachings, which resulted in some traditions that or meant to protect you from the wrath of Lilith.


So, these are sort of rituals that you would take upon yourself to or participate in to protect yourself and your family from Lilith.

So, in Jewish culture, specifically between the 5th and 8th centuries.

CE families would protect themselves from Lilith and other babies.


Catching demons as they’re called with ceramic bowls, called incantation bowls and they would bury those under their front door and that was meant to protect their home.

Oh, okay.


I wonder whose idea that was at first when they were like, here’s the drill.


I got it.

I know.

I know how this works.

Get a bowl buried under the ground problem solved.

You’re good.

We’re all good.

Now, don’t even ask for an explanation.

Once the popularity of the incantation bowls faded, Jewish family started, a new tradition, a new rich.

Well, they would start buying metal or paper amulets, mmmm, but instead of amulets with our cool Angel friends, they were amulets with the image of Lilith tied up.


Oh, so it’s sort of like, she’s been restrained.

Aha on this amulet.

So now we are protected from her.

I see, I see.

Okay, I see how it plays into the original story.

I appreciate the Callback.

That’s nice.





So the origins of Lilith show her as being a very vengeful woman, but overtime interpretations have kind of Spun her story into one of empowerment instead.

Okay, and so their interpretations that are more feminist leaning and those came about mostly in the late 20th century when writers and activists began to portray her as the kind of independent woman that she wanted to be in the first place when she left the garden and she struck out on her own before the Angels, you know, tried to drag her back Char.


And so people, you know, feminists more Progressive writers kind of embraced that version of With and decided to lean into that.

And so in 1972, a groundbreaking article by writer and filmmaker.

Lily, rivlin was published in Miss magazine.

And then in 1976, the Jewish feminist magazine, Lilith officially launched.


Sorry, caught me off guard there.

That’s so crazy over she made it onto the cover of a magazine.

I’m pretty sure she is the magazine.

She is literally the magazine in the first issue of Lilith magazine Jewish feminist and activist Aviva.

Cantor zhukov, wrote an op-ed, which said Lilith is a powerful female by acknowledging lillis revolt and even in telling of her vengeful activities, mythmakers also acknowledge Lilith’s power.


That’s true.

It is right?

And it’s kind of what you said of you would have thought they make one and went.

Oh, you’re right.

The first ones already so scary.

I know you would think that like, God saw what Lilith was up to and then was like, more women.

That’s okay.


It’s kind of like God wanted it.

Don’t like you kind of wanted like really powerful women, you know, at least really Independent Women who are going to be stubborn again, at least the man, he knew the risk, you know, he knew the risk and he you know all this time later.

It’s you know, women are still popping up.


So we’re still doing our thing.

So I’m going to finish the quote here.

I’m sorry to start.

No, it’s not your fault.

It’s fully my fault.

And so in the op-ed Aviva continued, even if we accept lillis vengeful activities, we can Regard them as having originated in self-defense against male domination.


And as a consequence of having to fight on alone Century after Century for her independence.

Okay, so interesting op-ed and then in 1998, Lily, rivlin Henry, when cart and Eden Dame, published the book, which Lilith, and this book featured, various stories of many women’s version of Lilah story.


So kind of a cool.

Take a cool spin.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah and the Lilith mythology.

So one of the poems in Book is Jacqueline.

Lapidus has poem Eden which imagines get this m.

A lesbian encounter between Lilith and Eve.


I appreciate the creativity for sure.

I am wondering how problematic it would be in today’s world, but I would like to see where it unfolds.

Maybe I’ll order your copy off eBay later.

You can tell me what you think.


So in 2005, the coming of Lilith by Judith, Blasco, imagines Lilith coming back to the garden and befriending Eve.


And even though Eve was told Lilith is a demon.

They kind of just talk it out and bond.

His gal, pal.

I could get into that.


That’s my favorite version so far where it’s like, it feels almost like Wicked.

In some way where it’s like, yes.


She was never an evil witch.

You just had to see it from her side.

I could get into that.

I love that, take that story.

And that was from 2005.

So relatively recently, I’ll send you that 12 off eBay.

So just look out for your mailbox.

Okay, so many modern-day occultist, still invoke Lilith reportedly as a symbol of sex power and the dark side of the divine feminine archetype.


I love that, right?

It’s powerful sentence there.


See, this is where the question comes back?

Where you were, like, where is their feminism and spirituality?

I mean, duh, that’s the sentence right there.


No, you’re right.

There is not necessarily a quality.

But fair feminism is Ghost.


I grow whether been a crow woman, right?


It exists.

So Lilith can often act as a Counterpoint to the many stories of strong masculine figures.

I mean, I think we all know the Bible, for example, is the Old Testament, and New Testament are both full of those stories of strong masculine figure.


So she’s kind of like, instead of just being subservient.


Yeah, exactly.

She’s has main character energy as one might say, hey, she paved her own way.

Definitely, she sure did.

Up next, we’ll share our final thoughts on Lilith and the many places you may have witnessed her influence on pop culture, including up, True Blood.


Here we go, finally, all right.

So as far as Lilith goes in modern culture, we have the thing.

I knew Lilith from which is Lilith Fair.


And in 1997, Sarah McLachlan.

Organized, the all-female, music festival, Lilith Fair.

Did, you know, not even about that.

And also really wait.

The, in the arms of the Angel singer.

Yes, which is ironic because she is known for singing a song about angels and apparently a little it was anything but But also interesting take.


I really, I’ve only known Sarah Mclaughlin for her one SPCA routine.

I don’t know.

It’s weird that she also like pros to music festival.

Oh, no.

She’s like a big recording artist.

I’m sure she is, but a growing up in the 90s and all I knew her by was by Nickelodeon television station showing her commercials.


I think it does kind of blow my mind a little bit that there was something She branched out into like this.

Oh, yes.

She had many record-breaking albums and she was a big 90s singer.

And so she organized the suit.


Basically, the story behind it is I there was a really great article in glamour that kind of interviewed just a ton, had a ton of people’s takes on the creation of little Affair and the history behind it.

And so she was in a position where you know, the 90s were somewhat more equal.


For women than at least previous decades, but it was still an uneven playing field.

And so, her agent or producer, would try to get her song on the radio and they would say, sorry.

We’ve already slotted Tracy Chapman in this week and that’s enough, female artists, you know, for the week.


And so it was just hard.

It was just very male-dominated industry.

And so she decided, you know, what?

Why don’t we do something?

Just for women, we’re going to have this all female music festival called Lilith Fair, and the reason it’s called Lilith fairs.

Because a friend told her, hey, have you heard the story about Lilith?


And she kind of heard about this independent woman who went against God, went against the only man on Earth and she combined that into the idea of an old-fashioned Affair but also a play on words of like equality fair.


Oh, wow.

I had no idea about any of us.

You hadn’t heard of Lilith Fair.

Well, here’s the no I hadn’t.

I don’t know what’s wrong with me.

But also, This whole time.

I really this is why I blew.

I thought it might be like demon themed.

I was unsure when you said Lilith Fair and I was like the in the arms of the Angel singer is has a demon.


It really blew me off.

I believe it.

All right.

Okay, so I’m on board.

I’m on board.

I was like, what is she, what is this about?


I’m totally understanding how it makes total sense.

And I was just, it’s sort of just more like the the feminist embracing you have Lilith’s.


Hurry as being an independent Trailblazer type, you know, I totally am on board now I but I really have never heard of this or if I did I think I just never paid attention to it.

Oh my gosh, Lilith Fair.

We got Tracy Chapman.

We got Sarah McLachlan.

We got country pop, they had different genres of music.


It was, it was pretty badass, and I think they said they got a lot of flak when they first started it because people were hesitant about sending their artists because they weren’t sure if a festival full of women, It actually draw who rode, you know, and they were like, well, but I guess one of their first shows Drew 10,000 people and they were like, all right, when you believe this, women have put in to believe it and they said, they were men in the audience as well.


It wasn’t, you know, just women participating and apparently, one one group of college guys was like, oh, well, this is where the girls are.

Let’s go figure, go figure.

So I guess some things never change.


I think I’m going to speak.


More your language here because we have a couple TV shows that also reference Lilith.

We’ve got Supernatural, the chilling Adventures of Sabrina, one of my favorites and The Witcher which I know Blaze watch and they all feature characters and storylines inspired by Lilith.

And now here’s your platform to speak about finally, drew blood.



So yes, I knew Lilah through True Blood.

I must have heard the name before but really, I would say, 90% of the information.

I know about Lilith has he didn’t know.

Oh you watch True Blood.

I love drew blood.


Yeah, I around like season.


It was like there was one season where I actually gave up.

I never actually saw how it ended.

They got a little too complicated.

They were really throwing every sort of mythical creature at me and I was like, I hope this was a show about vampires.

That’s where that’s where we were.

And then there was werewolves.

I think there were fairies at one point.

There was some creatures.


I’ve never even heard seems like Supernatural.

Well, it also came out right during the vampire craze of like Twilight.

I mean, it’s so Is very on-brand for the moment.

And also I don’t know who their PR team was or something, but they also sold great merch.


I was like, all of their all their Trinkets and tchotchkes were like look like right off the set.

Anyway, I was a big fan of True Blood and Lilith was.

So I think the story went in the show that God made Adam and Eve as the first two human beings, but God made Lilith as the first vampire and Adam.


And eve were created to give her people to drink from.

Oh, something like that.

It’s like.

Now, in hindsight with the story.

You just told me I totally understand why there was like, some sort of demonic influence.

I feel like it was, like, they used the story of Lilith that has been passed down for ever and ever, but then they’re like, but the kids love vampires these days.


So that’s what, how we’re going to have to twist them spin.

It will spin it next up.

We have The Chronicles of Narnia by c.s.


The White Witch, who’s the man?

Tagging us of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is said to be a descendant of Lilith and it’s referred to as Adam’s first wife, interesting and c.s.



I don’t know if you know is a also a Christian Theologian.

He’s wrote a book on Christianity.

He multiple, he’s very very big kind of philosopher in that space.

So it makes sense that his one of his characters would have that story line.


I feel like I knew that Narnia was a bunch of allegories and there’s a lot of yep.


Okay, symbolism.


And Lilith also appears in the 40th issue of Neil gaiman’s, the Sandman series from DC Comics.

I know you’re more of a, you know, marvel and all that.


I’m team Marvel, but I have heard of this comic book, but apparently, it was just a flashback like the beginning of time.

So she makes a guest appearance and then bounces.

Oh, really?

Oh in this specific issue.


It’s not like little it was like a new superhero or anything.


Oh, she just kind of shows up and it’s like never mind.


She was like I would like my DC Comics check, please.

I was here for a couple frames and now I’m out.

Well, who can blame her very good player.

That was honestly the most Lilah thing she could have done.

So whatever.


Well, and how do you feel about this whole story?

How do you view Lilith?

She had demon.

Is she a feminist?

She both.

I think she was turned into a feminist symbol.

Definitely a good.

That’s I agree with you.

I don’t know if she was a feminist.

First of all.


I don’t think she was a feminist for her time because if she was the only woman I don’t think she really I don’t think she knew the what feminism was but I think she was independent and I think she had a lot of really cool values that like make her worthy of being mentioned, especially in him this context.


But I also do want to say, you can be a feminist and also have done some really crappy things.

And if that part is true, where she fully are worded Adam while he was sleeping, you To be a feminist.

And also have a really messed-up sense of behavior.



Like there is not, it’s not just like a fresh like claiming to be a feminist isn’t just absolve you.

Yes, exactly, like wipe away any of the bad things I’ve done.

I know some people with really wonderful values who have a really messed-up past and I know some really wonderful people that also were still unpacking.


A lot of things that over time they will become less of a terrible person in other ways, but I think we should not negate Eight that she has done some pretty terrible things while also baby accidentally, being a feminist.

So I think there’s two answers there to be fair.


She might be the first feminist because she was the first woman, the only one and she stood up for herself and said, I’m equal to you.


Same where the same dust for the same dirt.

I’m equal and they said no, you’re not.

And she’s like, well screw you.

Okay, I don’t need you.


I don’t know.

You convinced me.

That’s like that’s a great argument, but it seems like Lilith is kind of getting appropriate into Ever she, however, she fits the narrative.

That’s a fair point fair point because I don’t really know like it’s it like if I ever found out that a man is the one writing Lilith.


However, he wants that all the time that got a problem with it.

If we’ve got another feminist writing a comic book about Lilith that I’m like, okay, you get the you you understood the assignment, you get the vibe, you know, and then there’s like a now.

She’s a vampire.

It’s like we wait.



I think she dig it.

I think she’d big.

I think she did it in a way, but I feel like it’s has the risk of kind of taking away the point of her whole Spiel.

I feel like that if we really wanted to like, have coffee with Lilith, and like really discuss what hurricane I do and really discuss, like, what her opinion on being seen as so powerful is because being so powerful, very quickly, translates to scary, or translates to something.


We don’t know or well.

Literally decided to birth demons.

So I think I think it’s true bored with that part.

I just got one where if she’s like a vampire was and she’s like that wasn’t my thing.

Like it being a demon was kind of my thing at least my baby while yeah.


Raising demons.

I don’t know.

But yeah, it is interesting how she’s kind of been spread it because Lilith Fair was also known for being just very like peaceful kind of a lot of like folksy Vibes and so it’s interesting how that Is one angle of a Lilith and then also she’s in The Witcher which I assume has a quite a different take.


I would love to see a reverse game of telephone and see what the earliest because I like even earlier translations of the Bible.

I would love to see like true.

Even the very least translation, very good point because for all we know she had babies and I don’t know Eve called them demons.


And now, that’s how we got deep made.

There’s babies like I No, it’s just gossiping and insulted her children and then everything spun out of control.

And if that’s the case that all she ever did, quote wrong was want to be an introvert and like be by herself.

Like, so the really like she could have gone from like an introvert to a vampire.


I don’t know, you know, is that your?

Oh, that’s your autobiography.

This is about.


From a demon a feminist from introvert to vampire.

Well, okay, I’ll take it.

But yeah, I know I was Wondered, like, if we were to look back at the earliest earliest available text like, was she did anything that is being claimed against her was any of it?



I don’t know.

I don’t know.

I mean, it sounds like at the very least.

She left the garden to strike out on her own feel like that’s all we can trust at this point.

Well, thanks so much for listening.


We’ll be Back next week with another great episode information on today’s episode came from Kenyon College HowStuffWorks my Jewish learning Vice glamour c.s.

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Rituals is executive produced by Max Cutler and is a Spotify original from par cast.


It was created by Max color, sound design by Kristen Acevedo with associate.

Sound design by Jamie Ryan fact-checking by Karim acrolein research by Chelsea would is produced by Kristen Acevedo and Jonathan Ratliff with production assistants by Ron Shapiro.

We are your host, Christine Schieffer, and M Schultz.