Rituals - E36 • Chico Xavier and His Ghost Writers

🎁Amazon Prime 📖Kindle Unlimited 🎧Audible Plus 🎵Amazon Music Unlimited 🌿iHerb 💰Binance


Christine, I have a morbid question to kick off today’s episode.

Oh, how many people would you think show up to a normal funeral?

Oh, let’s see, probably like 40 to 50, I don’t know.

Well I don’t actually have an average stat for you but oh well I just want to see what you’d say well in June 2002 and Brazil over the span of two days.


Thousand people were said to have passed by the coffin of a beloved medium named Chico Xavier.

Every our 3,000 people are said to have passed by the coffin, every hour, the Line to See Him stretched for two and a half miles, okay?


I got to say that sounds pretty much like what I’m expecting?

Oh my funeral.

I mean, but that shouldn’t surprise.

Anyone sounds like a lot of work for me to plan it like hey you’ve already taken on the mantle of planning it, no one else will.

I’m Only Gemini, you know, let you know, it goes both ways.


So whoever goes first is gets to be out of that responsibility, haha, but wow.

Okay, I have never heard of this person and I feel kind of left out and I feel kind of silly because apparently I should know who this is.

You’re gonna enjoy him your, have a good time.


Hi everyone, and welcome to rituals a Spotify original from par cast.

I’m M Schultz and I’m Christine cheever.

And every week, we’ll explore the evolution of spiritualism and the Occult through stories practices, and the impact on Modern culture.

And today we’re talking about Chico Xavier, no clue who this is no clue.


It’s a real real do.

The other story.

I don’t want to ruin it for you, but like, for once we get to like, just be really excited to talk about someone instead of having to like, I don’t know.

R, a rag on them a little, but I mean, you are also welcome to rag on them because the things I’m about to tell you are pretty unbelievable.


So, you might just think it’s all BS or I might fall into the camp of M and believe every word you say, that’s where I am at least.

So let’s crack into it.


So when we talk about Chico Xavier, you’re going to hear about how a spirit was bothering him as a kid.

Was there anything that bothered you as a kid that maybe you deal with now in everyday life?

Spiritually, non spiritually, Laura, every answer is me.


I’m going to really lose my mind.

Unfortunately, I didn’t have the pleasure of meeting you until I was well past my childhood but I would say everything bothered me as a child.

I was extremely sensitive and I even thought broccoli was too spicy.

See what is wrong with you?


You know, when it’s raw and it’s like kind of spicy.

I was just extremely sensitive.

I couldn’t drink Sparkling anything.

I was like, always overwhelmed by sensory stuff.

Here’s a shorter less.

What did you enjoy as a child?

I enjoyed reading that was spicy to my eyes.


I actually didn’t let I’m talking to my imaginary friends.

I enjoyed being kind of alone or you know, playing quiet puzzles.

So it was very bothered by a lot of things as a child.

So I have found that in my adult years.

I’ve really structured a life where I can, you know, be in solitude between, you know, outings and the fun things we do I can be in solitude but as far as like ghosty stuff Yeah, I don’t think so.


I don’t think I was really perturbed by anybody specifically, were you?

Yeah, I will ghosty wise, I had one at my mom’s house on one of my dad’s house.

They both the creepy one.

I remember that.

The creepy one preview.

One is, on my dad’s house that one, I’m I’m pretty sure that’s the like, that was a full-blown demon situation, it wasn’t good.


One time I saw it in my bedroom hovering over me and it was a giant black cloud just floating and moving in.

I’m Breathing by itself.

It was very terrifying.

It was like hats would fly off the rack and stuff.

It was little just thinking about it.

I have Goosebumps hated that guy.


I think he was homophobic.

I think that’s what was happening there because I like actually, hmm.

I had a friend who what was like really sensitive to that stuff and I guess could see things and she got the vibe that it was almost like maybe he was closeted from another time and I really rubbed him the wrong.



I was uh-oh, that was the vibe.

We were getting I guess, and then there was one of my mom’s house who still lives in my bedroom to this very day and he’s got really heavy boots.

And so in the more than I do just here boots walking up and down my room and neither of us liked each other.


Yeah, there were times where he got a little too close at night.

I would just feeling like right on my face staring at me.

Yeah, a little too close.

I would say, I would have to have a talk with them every now and then and be like, look, you don’t like me.

I don’t like you but like let’s just It’s like you say, over there, and I stay over here, we call it a day, so he was just like a really annoying roommate.


That’s like a new sitcom idea, TM TM TM.

I think I want to write that.

It’s like the opposite of Casper, the Friendly Ghost.

It was like, just his uncle.


Yeah, Casper.

The annoying roommate.


So you I’m over here talking about broccoli and you’re like, oh no, I get it.


She qu I had the exact same situation if I had as good of a situation as he did.

I think my life would be a little different today but so he ended up writing quite Few bucks which will get into.

But if you were to start writing any successful books Beyond are already successful become Hannah Rhode Island’s, please go try to me if you were to start writing books and you did.


So with the help of ghosts, here’s my question to you, would you tell people about it?

Would you tell people a ghost was ghostwriting?

Are you a ghost writing for a ghost?


Wow, this came out of the auto left field, I would say.

It depends on if the ghost was pressuring me to tell people if the ghost was like, no, it’s Fine.


I don’t want to be in the Limelight then I’m like I’ll take the credit, girl, you’re already dead.

Like, I, you’re not in the Limelight, I don’t know.

I feel like if the ghost has the ability to bother me, if I don’t give them the credit, then I guess I’ll just admit it there.

The, the creative brains behind this operation.


I feel like if I were writing because we’ve talked about that in previous episodes where?

Yeah, I think like it was someone was writing for Mark Twain, allegedly her like using a Ouija board or seances to then write books on behalf of ghosts.

Yeah, I feel like I would want to tell people for the novelty of like, oh well, no one else is doing this but then I think okay, well those family members are going to come after me for royalties.


Oh, so you but your time like a famous person because I’m just thinking Some Rando who lives in my basement as a ghost and it’s like I have things to say.

I mean if it was a rando I still I still think maybe they’re like sister would come after me for royalties.

I don’t know if I could get your Matic pretty easily, I think.


Yeah, my lawyers would probably have to get involved at that.

A point, aha.


I don’t know if I would tell anyone, but just so you’re aware.

She could have here is a pretty much like a spiritual icon in Brazil, mmm, Francisco cândido, Xavier known fondly, as she, kuchibiru was a Brazilian medium, so imagine him in chip Coffey being buds, you know, he’s considered one of the most influential people in Brazil in the 20th century and is a household name in the country.


Which Immediately gives you a little peek into may be culturally.

How spiritualism is seen compared to here?

Because I don’t, I mean, I think people who listen to us.

Maybe Zak Bagans is a household name but it’s not a household Name Across the Nation, I would absolutely agree.



This guy was a philanthropist and a spiritist leader known for writing.

I’m not kidding.

Hundreds of books and letters.

Well, he said he was in a trance.

Okay, interesting.

So this is called psych Agra.

Fe or automatic writing, which it kind of, you know about, then we’ve talked about that on the show before and there are some hairs being split when it comes to spiritism versus spiritualism, which I’ll get into in a second when we get to noshiko a little more, I don’t think, I even knew what spiritism was, I didn’t even know that was a word.


I think we’re fairly spiritist, but I’ll let you decide the second, okay?

I was gonna say, I’m not going to confirm or deny until I learned a little more speaking for you publicly.

Finally, I would say you are fairly spiritist.


I know I said I wasn’t going to agree or whatever but I do because I trust you you blindly follow always so sheikah was born in 1910 and raised in a very poor Catholic Family in a rural Village in Brazil and he was only four years old when he started complaining that there was a spirit bothering him.


If Leona ever ever everybody.

What you’re gonna, I would just walk away from her.

I think I’d be able to say, I would believe her.


I feel like a lot of stories we hear people don’t why I believed.

It’s why I would walk away.

Yeah, you would walk away.

I would, I would walk away on FaceTime you and say you need to help me deal with this.


Is your burden now as well.

I’d be like, I know I’m babysitting her right now, but how do I get her away from me?

Because I don’t want this anymore.

Be like, I locked her in a different room for a little while.

I told her to go outside and play and then I locked the door.

And now, please come home, please come home.

So his father took him to the local priest who concluded that she could was possessed by the Double.


Yeah, that’s a step.

I think neither you nor I would take in this scenario, especially because that spirit I told you about in my mom’s house that has like the heavy boots and really doesn’t like, yeah, has been living in my room with me since I was 4 and my mom never took it that seriously has compared to this guy who was like, okay, so we’re gonna take you to a priest and you’re possessed by the devil.


Yeah, that’s a big, big big leap.

I think.

But, you know what?

I appreciate that.

The father took him seriously.

How often does that happen in stories?

That’s true.

I don’t know what’s worse.

Not being believed or being taken in for what I presume is an exorcist.

Mm, I don’t know.

It’s either is zero percent believe are a thousand percent believe or you’re the devil.


Yeah, so the priest told him to recite a thousand Hail Marys.

Oh my God, that’s a lot of Hail Marys.

I gotta ask Miss Catholic, what is a Hail Mary?

How long is it really Hail?

Mary full of grace?

The Lord is with thee.

Blessed are thou among women and blessed.

Blessed is the fruit of thy womb.


Jesus, holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us.

Sinners now.

And at the hour of our Death.


Okay so one him.

I timed you and that was a hot five Mississippi’s and you were saying it pretty quickly.


That sounds about, right?

So times a thousand.


You figure out that math, go back to me.



That’s that’s directed at you folks.

I’m certainly not doing the math but maybe one of you will, but I will say to, don’t you think by the tenth Hail Mary?

You’ve already you’re just saying words like it.

Can’t mean anything at that point, you know?

Yeah, there’s no way you’re committing.

All of your energy into a thousand.



Plus if your possessed by the devil and that’s all it takes.


It’s not a very strong devil.

Why are we worrying about demons?


Okay so it gets hotter, the pre sold them to recite a thousand Hail Marys and walk in A procession carrying a 30 pound Stone on his head.



I don’t know where in the Bible it says that ought to be the fix but let’s also remember this kids for years old.

You’re right a 30 pound Stone on my head sounds like a lot on a four year old town.

His neck is brand-new.

It’s like a bull toothpick and he’s got to carry 30 pounds on his head.


I don’t really know.

I’m just thinking my baby at this point.

It’s like 20 pounds and she’s pretty damn heavy.

I don’t want her on my head.


Yeah 30 is a lot also your baby is almost one.

So just times the amount of time you’ve been with her by 4 and imagine like someone telling her she has to know like go walk around say 1000 Hail Marys.


I want you to tell Leona to say thousand Hail Marys poor.

Baby poor, little boy.

So I think he went through with it and it didn’t help.

Oh, and the spirit wouldn’t leave him alone.

So now I guess they just think he’s like, I don’t know.


If they think he’s possessed anymore or maybe they’re just like, all right.

Well, apparently you’ve got something attached to you and this is just how your life is stalker a little Spirit stalker.


So now even though she go was bothered by a spirit, he was able to communicate with it, okay?


That’s a good step in the right direction.

I wonder if he could communicate with it.

If he could have said something from the beginning of like I don’t want to say 1000 Hail Marys.

Can you please just go away?


Why don’t we settle this outside of the tree?


Like outs, not notify the insurance.


Just like cash up front.

You get a handle this.


So he can communicate with them.

He realizes he can communicate with Spirits.

So, according to a lecturer who spoke to the spirit of Society of Virginia, in 2013, the first sign of this came at just four years old.

When he He shocked his parents by revealing that yikes.


The neighbors abortion was actually due to an ectopic pregnancy.

Wait what?

So that begs the question how would a four-year-old know this about his neighbor?

How would a four-year-old even know what ectopic pregnancies?

I feel like a skeptic could say oh the four-year-old was playing outside and heard the parents talking about it or something but –right, write –right, if we’re talking about it in a spooky way.



There’s why would he even have that language and right?


So, that was kind of the thing that really set his parents on fire about this.

So sadly a year later in 1915, she goes only five now and his mother dies.


Oh no.

Oh no.

But he found Comfort by talking to the spirit of his dead mother.

Oh, this poor boy.

He has gone through a lot in his first five years.

Honestly, at least he can talk to his mom which like if I had that skill set and people I loved passed away like a horse.


I’d use it, so sure.

I mean, we see that a lot and stories even like Abraham Lincoln’s wife, Mary Todd, Lincoln and just like the Comfort she got but then you can get sucked into it too and yeah.

I don’t know.

It’s like a fine line.

I feel like I’m line coming up.


She could became a famous author by taking the phrase Ghostwriter literally.

We’ve always joked about that phrase.

So I’m excited to see somebody actually use it.

Literally Behind every missing person is a story to be told look closely at the details and you may just find the answers, find the answers, find the truth.


I’m Sarah attorney.

Host of disappearances.

Every Thursday, join me for a deeper look into history’s.

Most gripping, missing persons cases tracking timelines, analyzing Clues and piecing together as many answers as possible to find the actual truth from the tragedies of Amelia Hurt in Charles Lindbergh jr.


To the mysterious circumstances surrounding Tiara Williams in the iguala mass kidnapping each week on disappearances were spotlighting.

The stories you thought you knew and the ones you’ll be shocked to discover because no one just vanishes into thin air.


The truth is out there waiting to be found.

Follow the Spotify original from par cast disappearances, listen free only on Spotify.


By the time Chico Xavier was 18.

He had gone from being annoyed by his ability to talking to these spirits and embracing it as a comfort, okay?

And as I mentioned before he spoke to the spirit of his dead mother, after she passed away, when he was just five.


And then when he was a teenager, some say that he actually claimed his mother’s Spirit directed.

Him to read a book about a Doctrine called spiritism and this marked a turning point for him, okay?

That book was by French scholar and teacher Allan kardec and it introduced the beliefs of spiritism and they include the notion that souls are Immortal and unite people through different lifetime.


So reincarnation spiritist, don’t believe that there are spirits Among Us.

They believe that we are all spirits.

So maybe we’re just living in the moment while others are there times coming up soon?

I don’t know.

That’s so deep.

I have profound spiritist.


Also, believe you can communicate with Spirits through seances and mediums.

Okay, you were absolutely right.

I’m loving this.

I’m into it.

I’m into it.

Souls are Immortal.

We unite through different lifetimes, we can Seance.

I love.

I can science.

Yeah, I’m telling you, and I read it and I went, ah, ha.


So Christine and me check.



And with his ability to communicate, Kate with spirits on top of all these spiritist beliefs.

She go then starts taking up, automatic writing.


Do you want to give anyone a little recap on how automatic writing works?


Oh jeez.

I feel like I always think I know and then I’m not great at describing it but you’re basically a vessel right for someone from the Beyond essentially to right through you.

And so you kind of meditate and people have different processes to get into it, but your like writing on behalf of someone on the other side and accurate homie.


The one who took the class, I don’t know.

I don’t think I took an automatic writing class.

I’ve tried it myself but just based on like one YouTube video.

I never actually learned too much about it.


Well there’s archival footage showing Chico at work doing some automatic writing.


This is according to a paper published in 2006 and the journal explore.

And in his right hand, he’s holding a pencil over a sheet of paper.

And in his left hand, he would cover his eyes.

And after a few minutes of sitting in, Silence.

He would start writing and someone else was like there to be his like the bat boy, I guess.


And would replace the sheets when they were full so he would just keep writing and writing and some would just switch the sheets out.

But I kind of love that within a few minutes.

He would fill about 20, sheets of paper.

Oh my God.

So he’s got a lot to say or someone does somebody does, but she couldn’t just Channel completely random Spirits when he wrote his First book was actually published in 1932 and in.


It were 259 poems that were allegedly dictated by a bunch of dead Brazilian poets.

I see.

So this is where you are saying.

You know, it’s a little dicey if you’re having real names involved.



Yes, yes, yes.

He is, the ghost writer for ghosts and a aha, I see, by the way, I don’t like that.

There were only two hundred fifty nine point.

Holmes, when you could have just done one more for 260.

But whatever the book was such a hit that one of the poet’s family members sued as she go for a cut of the money, which is what I said I was afraid that would happen.


That is exactly what you said and I was like, oh, I don’t know how that would happen but yeah, oh here we go.

Perfect example.


And they ended up losing the suit, which I guess is nice to know the like my greatest fear would not be fully realized, but it would be threatened for sure.




If you ever think that you should write for a spirit, maybe keep it to yourself as the Lessons Learned.

Yeah another Spirit.

Who was a constant writing partner for Chico was André.

Luiz many spiritist believe André.

Luiz was the pseudonym for a famous Brazilian Doctor Who left his physical body.


A few years before World War 2 AK.

He is no longer with us.

Whoa, what?

A way to put it.

Oh Christine, you know she left her.

Nobody yeah kind of that fun.

I’m kind of into it.

Yeah I can see how that is more spiritist of like oh well they’re just now in a spiritual form the existence.


Yeah, exactly.

Oh well they’re astral forms will hear about their physical form is not you get it.

Yeah, I got it.


I feel like there’s something kind of poetic in that em anyway.

So André Luiz is said to be this famous.

Brazilian doctor that from Beyond, was a discussing with Chico things to write up on.


So, throughout his life, Chico shivir wrote more than 450 books.

Holy crap, including novels poetry children’s books, short stories, letters scientific essays and self-help books and he wrote all of these like that.


And wow here’s the thing though he only had a fourth grade education.

So what it only kind of further convinced people of like how is this man right?

450 bucks on a fourth grade education.

And also, how do you have 450 ideas?


So it for me, the Relentless believer in anything spooky, nobody can have that many ideas and their lifetime, let alone write 450 bucks.

We have wrote one book, I wrote half a book, you wrote the other half and I’m so tired, the prospect of writing another one is so daunting.



And so for him to have written four hundred fifty books will and I think you mentioned scientific essays, didn’t you?


Yes, which again is like, you’re writing children’s books, scientific essays, poetry, and like this is all coming from a fourth, grade education.

You’re right?

That’s pretty convincing.


So I just feels like, there’s no way you would have 450 original things to write about and such.

Yeah, little time.

I guess that it almost makes you think like, oh, there must have been just like a line of spirits ready to say something.


I mean, if you’re the only person that can access their stories, imagine the like Our line.

Oh my God.

The other side to like just like get their stuff written down by some get their children’s book published finally.

That was there.

A their unfinished business?



So several people tried to prove that he was a fraud but no one succeeded.

I mean, I don’t really know how you could but they they try, you could either.

They tried to figure out what he, what his game was and they couldn’t figure it out.

So despite being successful with his writings, she goes seemingly wasn’t in it for the money.


Just uh, Like the cherry on top of the situation.

I was going to say.

That’s the other thing that usually convinces me, when people kind of shun or turn away from like the fame and money of the whole thing.

It’s like, hmm.

I understand from this perspective on its own, why he ends up being an icon in Brazil, whether it’s like for Spiritual reasons or not.


But just like as a good person because while doing his channeling and medium work, he continues to work a day job at the agriculture.

Mystery which huh?

I feel like that’s a very sweet wholesome job.

And seems like it.

He retired in 1958 and then lived off of his State Pension.


Oh wow.

And he donated all the proceeds from his books to charity or to fun spiritist work, okay?

So that’s pretty incredible.

Whether I mean, even if he was faking it like to donate all your proceeds to charity is still a pretty awesome thing all your proceeds of 450 books like you could have done it for one book and had 449, you know.


Yeah yeah and live Off his State Pension, that’s pretty incredible.

And this is my personal favorite.

He held weekly sessions where the public could come in the hopes of getting a letter from their deceased, loved ones for free for free.


So he would Channel their loved ones.


He just had free meetups where you could just get a letter from your loved one from him for free.

Wow, he produced an estimated 10,000 personal letters for people.

Does he keep have carpal tunnel?

Because I feel like at that point you’d have to.



There were there wasn’t like talk to text then.


Maybe I’ll 10,000 letters were just like, hi Mom.

Like, I heart, you put a sweater on Grandma.

So obviously any skeptic Harry Houdini himself would be like, the guys just writing whatever he wants down and calling it your parents.



But like if you’re spending a 10,000, Letters worth of time to do something for free.

Like either you’re incredibly bored or you you really maybe believe in it or maybe he was doing it for like the fame.

I don’t know.

There’s something could have totally just been had some ulterior motives, but I feel like money really could have been a way into this and he didn’t keep any of it and easy motivator.


He did all 10,000 personal letters for free yet, people would definitely have paid for that.

So it does surprise me that he did it for free and the Hers would often just because we were saying like, oh maybe it says hi.

And that’s it.

The letters would often include what people said were intimate details that she could have not known and he’d write and languages.


He couldn’t speak.


And he’d reportedly even right in the dead person’s handwriting.

Now, this is where I go.

I’m intrigued.

And remember he’s got a fourth grade education.

So if he is right, yes, big words.


It Mayo in Greek, might be.

Adults pregnant in Greek, right?

All of this made shiko shivir and icon and Brazil, obviously, obviously, I don’t blame them, I mean, I would consider him quite an icon as well.

If I had known him before now, even if I were someone who like didn’t believe this and thought they were tricks up his sleeve, I’d still be intrigued impressed or something.


Yeah, I’m still at least be like oh wow, all you donating all that money.

Okay, respect a good move, like Criss Angel, if he does do Dated all of his money and like just lived off of a state pension.

I’d be like, you know what, you can do, whatever you want, Chris Angel.

Yeah, yeah you can write letters to anybody from anyone’s grandma and I’ll believe it support every local Wildlife, Preserve or whatever your charity of choices.


So in 1971, a live interview with him brought in one of the largest TV audiences in Brazilian history and the broadcast was planned for one hour, but ended up going three hours all, you know, whoever was supposed to be on after that.

I was pissed.

Oh yeah but also imagine being like part of the live audience and like knowing that, I mean, he sounds nice enough.


That maybe he just gave everyone a free reading or something?

Like who knows what was going on but I’ll follow up interview.

The next year was watched by 20 million people, wowza.

He’s a star I know and she goes Powers were so widely recognized that his letters were even accepted as evidence in court cases.



Hey Hey, okay, that’s next level that’s bananas.

That’s where and that’s why I drink xn because it’s half absolute true crime.

Have spooky spooky.


His home also became a pilgrimage site for hundreds of thousands of Brazilians and celebrities and millions even signed a petition for him to get the Nobel.


Peace, Prize, in both 81 and 82.

I just got some little Goose.

Goose, bumps Goose cam.

I’m wow, I’m taken by this person.

Do you imagine?

Just wait.

Up every day, being him and just being like, Oh yeah, everyone loves me.

Like what must be nice.


Let’s be nice and my guy.

He continued his spiritist work into his old age and she goes shivir died in 2002 at the age of 92.

Oh, I’m so glad.

He lived such a long life, that’s always nice to hear.

It gets even sweeter because according to the guardian Chevy are had prophesized that he would one day die on a day of Celebration.


So that any grief would be lessened by.

Channel happiness.

And on the day he died the Brazilian football team won its fifth World Cup.

No is enough bananas.

Talk about the biggest like day of celebration in Brazil would be the day, they win the World Cup again.


I mean that’s powerful stuff.

Wow, that’s pretty incredibly for him to try to, like, soften the blow for people of like, I know, I’m loved.

So when I die I’m going to make sure it’s on a day where like everyone’s happy it’s incredibly touching and that’s I will say.

Also, that’s something you can’t.

Is predict as far as like looking at a calendar like you can’t just say, no.


I’m going to die on Christmas Day.

And the, you know, exactly what that is like, he didn’t know.

Yeah, I mean, he clearly didn’t know, but like not everyone would just know that this celebration was coming but also, you know, it’s super creepy.

What if he knew that all the way down to the day and like, you just like know there’s a countdown?


Well God, I sure hope not.

I hope not.

But he did seem to know enough about it.

That I would make me wonder, maybe when he was 92, he was like, Like he was aware and ready any day now.

Oh yeah.

Up next?


How the work of Chicot shivir continues to shape life and Brazil to this day, I can’t wait to hear about this.

I feel like I’m learning a whole new element of Brazilian culture.


Chico Xavier brought Comfort to millions of people and his legacy endures in Brazil.

And at least 50, I’m not kidding million copies of his book have been sold and have been translated into more than ten languages.

So he’s got that Global impact showing, your Global impact is showing a girl.


And in 2010, the Brazilian post office issued a special stamp to Mark.

What would have been his 100th birthday?

Oh, that’s nice.

Just so loved.

One of his most popular books was written by the spirit of andre-louis who I mentioned earlier and it was made into a movie in 2010.


No way.


In 2006, a magazine asked its readers to vote for the greatest Brazilian in history and he wanted with nearly double the votes received by the runner-up.

Oh my God.


And in 2012 he won a similar TV competition to name the greatest Brazilian of all time.


This man was loved, loved loved.

I feel so silly that I didn’t know about him before me too.

In 2015, there was a report stating that Brazil had by far the largest Spirit as population in the world and some unofficial estimates are as large as 20 million.



And I would not be surprised if he was a big influence for that short.

Sounds like he influenced a lot of people spiritism has become fully ingrained and Brazilian pop culture and you can Spiritus magazines and newspapers and most newsstands and mediums appear regularly on the most popular TV shows even Brazilian telenovela has incorporate spiritist themes.


How cool is that immediately?

Just tells me that they’re telenovelas are better than anything I’ve seen.

Because if I reincarnation and spirits and all that are involved, that’s our a new element.

Yeah, that’s a soap opera I need.

But yeah, that’s I mean, that’s basically she Kosh a beer.


I am just so excited about this guy.

Have you looked him up?

I just pulled up a picture of him know is his toupee shiny.

It is shiny fun.


I mean he just seems so loved and I want to be hesitant because I feel like I want to be aware of the fact that like if this were someone else with like a different belief system, maybe I would think they were.


I’d be more hesitant to blindly believe that everything they’re doing just limit.

But I think, for me, I don’t even really care.

If what they’re doing is really.

Learn not just because all of the intention seems so pure, it looks like there’s peer exactly like good intentions and it looks like he brought a lot of peace to people when yeah.


I think a very powerful thing and I mean, he clearly didn’t profit personal, that’s what I’m saying.

I feel like with good intentions.

Like, if he were helping thousands of people and doing three our interviews on TV, I’d be like this guys, doing it for the fame and the money, but I mean, it seems like he didn’t save a dollar of it for himself and he was doing like free. 10,000 personal message, writings and all that.


Like, it feels like it’s more wholesome than it, could be.

Yeah, and it feels like people embraced him to it.

Feels like he was not seen as like a whoo out there type of person.

Like people just took this at face value and really embraced it which is kind of cool.


What does it say for you about Brazilian culture and spirituality that he wasn’t viewed immediately as like a crock?


Under, I feel like things might be different in our culture, just in the u.s. just because I think people are perhaps more skeptical of that side of things.


But I don’t know.

It’s hard to say really.

I just think they were clearly very open-minded and accepting of him and embraced him.

Yeah, that’s pretty cool.

I feel the same way.

I feel like in the u.s. maybe he would have gotten a TV show and half of the audience would watch him to try to prove how he was doing.


Like, Penn & Teller would watch just to try to call him out.

I feel like we’re a little more like, you know, what’s in it for him or why is he up to this versus?

I feel like in Brazil, they were just like, oh, he’s just trying to be helpful and we’re going to take him up on his offer.


And talk to my grandma.


Do you think he would have been taken seriously?

Or a been considered an icon here?

I feel like he would have kind of gotten washed away.

I feel like if he was doing it for no money or no, Fame, then he might not have like been built up or something.

That’s a great.

I feel like all the people we’ve already recognized as like spiritual icons in the US are on TV are on, but I guess, he, you know, had his time on on air and he had his time writing books.


And so, maybe he would have been kind of on the same level as these other, like, Theresa Caputo, and all these folks who do have TV shows.

Yeah, it’s hard to say, I wonder if we would feel differently if our if our us medium rock stars or whatever.


If they all Also, did it for no money, you know, I feel like maybe he’d be on a more even playing ground, but I feel like he was doing it to impact the community.

And I don’t know if I almost think that in the US would be even more skeptical of someone like wasn’t taking any money for it.


We’d be like, what are you trying to prove here?

Like, I don’t know.

There’s part of our culture.

I think that’s so capital is.

Yeah, in our broken system.

You must need money.

It’s just like, why are you what are you trying to prove?

Do you think you’re better than us?

I don’t I just think maybe definitely like an element of like suspicion if somebody just said, nope, I don’t want any money.


I’m doing it all for free.

I think we’d be cautious about that in the u.s.

I feel like I’m this moment.

It’s the first time I’m realizing that capitalism has ruined us and even more ways than I was aware of even like, mediums can’t can’t do well.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, it makes sense, but in in this situation of like, oh, I’d be, I’d be skeptical of someone just because, like, obviously, you would want the money.


Well, to me, it’s like, anybody and not to go on this soapbox.

But anybody in a creative field who gets paid and there’s that element of like, okay, we got to make a living and so, you know, people obviously get paid.

But then there is that other side of the coin of a, will you’re doing creative work?


I don’t want to pay so much money for that.

There’s a lot of a lot of problems there.

Anyway, that’s no understatement of the century but I’m happy to have you on that soapbox forever.

That’s just wild to think.

They’ll like, I wonder if our economy We were different.


Would he be seen differently here, right?

And I’ll add like, I don’t know much about Brazilian culture.

So I feel like I can’t really say like, oh what the difference is between there and here because I don’t really know what what their system is like and what their cultural beliefs are like especially since this took place like a few decades ago, you know?


So I don’t know.

I I kind of wish I’d known about him sooner though.

I feel like he seems like a cool guy me too.

And I feel like that’s also where I wonder if he lived here or tried to work here.

If he would just kind of get washed away with the Tied because I like how did I not hear about him?


Yeah, I wonder if it just didn’t hit us in the same way.

A nice wholesome person.

Trying in my mind.

He’s trying to do good for all.

I know.

He was like grifting everyone but it doesn’t seem like the entire nation of Brazil thinks that.

Yeah, so interesting.

It’s very cool.


I feel like we rarely get stories where at the end?

We’re like what a cool guy especially when it’s a man’s.

I’m just like, oh, I love him.

He seems like a special special person.

So I’m very impressed.

Getting golden retriever energy from hymns, but like, really smart.


Like can also speak Greek, and all that other stuff.

Yes, yes, and also went to fourth grade which for Golden Retriever is pretty impressive.

It’s like Air Bud, the sequel or something.

Yeah, thanks so much for listening.


We’ll be back next week with another great episode.

Road information on today’s episode came from Boston Review, the guardian, the spiritist network.

United States spirit is Federation, explore the Journal of Science, and healings, original research titled investigating, the fit in accuracy of alleged mediumistic writing a case study of Chico Xavier’s letters and Brazil.com.


Remember to follow rituals on Spotify to get a brand new episode every week, and you can listen to this and all other episodes of rituals for free exclusively on Spotify.

And if you liked this show, follow at Park s on Facebook and Instagram.

At podcast Network on Twitter, you can find me at the M Schultz and you can find me at XT cheever.


Thanks again for listening and we will see you next week.

Rituals is executive produced by Max Cutler and as a Spotify original from par cast, it was created by Max color, sound design by Kristen Acevedo with associate sound design by Jamie Ryan research, by Chelsea would fact-checking by Laurie Segall.


It’s produced by Kristen Acevedo and Jonathan, Ratliff with production assistants by Ron Shapiro.

We’re your host, Christine Kefir and EM Schulz.

Hi, listeners.

I’m Sarah attorney host of disappearances in 2020.


I used social media to help bring Justice to.

My sister, Alice has nearly two decades long disappearance.

Now, every Thursday I’m exploring, the many reasons, people disappear and finding that.

The truth may be even harder to locate than the person follow the Spotify original from par cast disappearances, listen free only on Spotify.