How's Work? with Esther Pere - The Break-Up

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I just I feel continually undermined.

The job has always been that place where I’ve been needed and I feel important a lot of the people that work for me are like an extension of my family.

There’s no doubt that you’re emotional and relational.


Derek comes with you to work.

Imagine going to work every day, and I’m really busy place and no one will make eye contact with you.

I mean, it feels like a breakup, it.

Doesn’t feel so how’s work.


What you’re about to hear is an unscripted one time counseling session focused on work for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality names, employers and other identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.


Just the 32nd background.

We flew Jets together in the Navy.

In the same aircraft.

We flew f-18s.

We deployed to Iraq.

Flying off the Truman.

In many ways.

This is a love story.

We had both decided at some point.


Hey, we’re really good at this together and a lot of times that’s kind of rare for a two-seat crew to be really good.

If you have a good pilot, a good window and have to communicate and work well together for the deal to sing.

But when it does, it’s a one plus Is greater than to think so we decided, hey, we need to do some business together.


We didn’t know what that would be, like the Navy about three months before I did.

I called him up and said, how is it?

And he said, get here as fast as you can.

This is life-changing.

So I flew in the next day, went to work with him.

The next day, got a job.


The next day bought a house.

The next day.

I moved to Midland.

This is an amazing thing happening.

While you’re talking.

She’s literally lip syncing with you.

What you’re saying that that?

A lot.

From the early days in the cockpit, both, Mike and Jay have been inseparable.


They build an oil company together afterwards and their strength, their boldness, their ability to assess and to take risks has always been predicated on the fact that they were together.

I’m kind of the Visionary creative guy and J’s.


The one that actually makes things happen.

It has to be one quick sec.


If you want your name’s not in there, then you may want to not always much that I care about.

My business was very successful, but the opportunity kind of faded.


And so we’ve been kind of figuring out what it is.

We want.

To do next.

We were feeling very stuck and had been that way for probably two years.


I have a new idea.

It’s just come to life.

I’m really excited about it.

But Jay is not as excited about it.


And we’ve kind of come to a place where we think that we can do different things and we’re starting to figure out what that looks like for us because we’ve been together as kind of Life Partners.

Yeah, for for 10 years.

We’ve beat this drama that like This team is the reason for all of this success.


So then, the other side of that equation, means that there’s no team.

There’s no success.

And this is the first time where the question is asked, is it that they succeeded because they had such a good idea?

Or is it also that they succeeded because the strength of the US, was the overriding factor.


And so now that they are considering their first-ever separation, the fear is that Best idea may not succeed.

If the US is no more.

Tell me something what you said.

You would keep this business, but you would continue something else separately and you could do some together in some not.


Yes, or does it feel like this is our first separation.

Well, it does feel like that for sure.

Yeah, but yeah, this is the first time we’ve ever actually acknowledged out loud.

Like hey, we don’t have to be 50/50 partners and everything going forward.


I would say for both of us.

That’s probably a little Both scary and I don’t know freeing that’s the word I had.

Yeah, explain each.

Well, the scary part is that it’s just, it’s a security blanket.


I mean how we operate together.

I would say that I am as worried about not having his ideas and vision and excitement as I’m assuming.

But as he might be worried about not having Me to keep them a little bit in check and provide a little bit of administrative abilities for his sometimes quite disorganized into a manic state.


So that’s scary.

And for the same exact reasons, it’s kind of free.

What’s it like for you to say, I’m going to do this on my own or maybe even with somebody else.

It’s terrifying and really empowering.


It feels like a new test, to be kind of the benevolent dictator and not always have to balance something off.

A 50/50 partner.

I’m solely responsible and I’m in charge, and now I have to be more of a grown-up, and I don’t always have my conscience there to rein me in, like, I’m going to do that myself.


In a way when you have a perfect complementarity, right?


In which one person can have division.

The other person thinks the implementation and you like those that, you know, you rely on it.

And when you rely on it, you don’t have to think about it so much because, you know, the other one will think about the thing that you are not so good.




You nailed it.

That is a Priceless complementarity.

Yes, because they’re often.

The reverse is one person criticizes the other for the very That they actually need in your case.

You praise each other for the very thing.

Each one in Acts the part that the other person isn’t as confident about.




It’s a beautiful thing now.

Well cherry blossoms.

Roses who lives there?

Is there such a needn’t even met it but that means that that you can have major sparring I suppose.


But when you tell me, why am I telling you?

Well, first, we need to start with the environment, where we grew up, you know, in the ready room of a Fighter Squadron.

It’s an environment where passive-aggressive is not acceptable, explain that when there’s an issue.


It’s discussed openly without fear of hurt feelings and Grudge Holdings.

But like, hey, there’s an issue here.

We need to address it because there’s too much going on.

There’s too much at stake because if Don’t people can die.


If we don’t people get diorite, we’re flying Fighters off of aircraft carriers that are loaded with bombs and guns.

I mean, there’s a lot of very critical scenarios every day, every flight.

So we have brought that mindset forward to our business and more specifically our partnership.


When we have issues, we sit down and if it’s big enough, we pour a glass of bourbon and or whiskey and, and we just deal with it.

Often in the workplace.

You have one person who likes the direct form and the other person who may be much more indirect or maybe sometimes what they called, the passive-aggressive or even totally avoidant.


So, in their case they come in, initially stating that their approach to managing conflict is similar because they were raised in the same military culture.

Of course.

One question I have is is this similarity truly Part of their personalities or part of their shared military culture.


And what’s the complementarity of styles in the way that you discuss hard topics?

He helped me open My Views up a little bit in terms of like emotion and or you know, appreciation for the way that other people feel, he helps me kind of think about.


The fact that it’s okay that other people might think about something emotionally different than I do or whatever.

And I generally more Adept at that like open and clear communication like logical Maybe.


You have decisive links, right?

Yes, and you’re the solo child.


Makes us see the connection.

Yeah, sure.

I just fucked on me.

You learn to solve things alone.


And you learn to think about how it affects others.

That’s why we’re sitting in your office.

I would have never thought of that, but that’s that’s true.

If you are sort of child and you live with solo parent.

Orsola parent.


It becomes sometimes more difficult.

To be able to have separate opinions.

Yes, that’s accurate.

I also think that and I’m not sure how this plays with the whole being, an only child.


But like, I’m actually pretty easily convinced when a logical argument is presented to me and he’s a Salesman, he can sell his ideas and he knows how to sell them to me.

That whole lot of, can I ask you something?


Sure, as your mom good at that?

I don’t know.

I wonder sheet.

We grew up with my grandparents.

You know, my dad died when I was two and a half.

So it’s just me and her and we lived when I moved in with my grandparents who were the best, they were awesome.

We have any money.


So she, she had to fend for for us both, you know, from from the start.

So I mean, she’s just an incredible woman, the things that she was able to do with nothing.

You know, my dad had a business that was terrible is Aviation business.

He’d loved, he had it because he loved Aviation up because he was good at business and you became a pilot.


Yes, not surprisingly.

Yeah, but when he died she was stuck with this business and trying to figure out what to do felt the responsibility to the, to the business, the dream and to the employees.

And she, you know, in a couple of years, she got that business from the red and the black and and sold it.


When I look back at that and go, wow, that’s that’s incredible.

So, I don’t think anybody was ever telling her what to do.

So, I don’t know the answer to that question because you’re thinking of it as an issue of command and control see, right.


That’s the way, I think a lot of things, right?

I wasn’t thinking about it from that side.

I was thinking about it as.

If you’d give me a good argument.

I can be convinced a because I think it’s a sound argument.


And two because I tried on Harmony.



I thrive on Harmony with my grandparents.

I drive and harmony with my mom and I travel in harmony with my business partner.

Yes, I would say that.

Of ten door closing sessions, where Whiskey’s board, nine of them are initiated by Mike dot.


That means what I don’t.

I avoid conflict, avoid conflict.

I chose a nicer way of saying it but that’s what I meant.


Yeah to me the minute you tell me I love and I admire my mother.


Hmm, I love and I so deeply.

Appreciate my grandparents and I was this Only child.

I know you are pleased but not in a future.

In the sense that you want to.


You want to have a nice relationship with people that you that you are fond of that, you love that, you admire, that you respect so much as you respect her.

It’s that you don’t want to disappoint them.

It’s absolutely not a negative trait at all.

But like, every trade, it takes place in a context.



It’s the context that determines if it’s a useful one today or if it’s more detrimental to me today, same with him.

Why is he so good at convincing?

Because he’s got four other brothers.

And they all have a big mouth and he has to get his point of view across.


He had a training ground from day one.

It’s like the context of how you grew up exquisitely.

Sharpened certain skills.

By necessity.

And they of course, come with you to work.



Wonder how that plays out in even like trying to please your dad, who wasn’t there?

Well, yeah, I mean that’s a I think that a lot of the things that I do or because my dad wasn’t there and I just want him to be proud.


And do you know that he is?

I believe that he has.

But, you know, without any sort of confirmation that all I can do is just keep trying.

But in your mind you’ve done right by him a hundred percent.

Okay, we clear on that but we still are trying to prove it.


No hundred percent.

It’s just K, know if there’s more to be done.

There’s more to be done.

I’ll tell you, there’s one more thing that can be done, but it has nothing to do with business.

Come on.


Be a father?


That’s scary.


But that’s the one sure you’re right.

Mom would love it.

So would he Yeah, I think, I think once the once the switch was flipped, I would be, I would be good at that.

It’d be amazing.


You afraid that you would go too soon.

I need live a little kids in your situation.

There’s probably a lot of things.

I’m afraid of.

But yeah, I mean, sure that’s absolutely one of them.

I mean, I think, I think a lot of the things I do or Could potentially be impacted by a fear of loss or a lot of things.


I don’t do.

I love that somebody who says that and then becomes a fighter jet pilot, how counter phobic can one be the viewer that never called a phobic, is the person who jumps Cliffs when they’re afraid of heights.


I was just having this discussion my girlfriend speaking about forget exactly what it was, but I said, I’m scared of that and she was like you’re scared of that.

What do you mean?

I said, yeah, I’m terrified of it which is why I try to go do it as much as I can because then I can take control of that fear and say, no.


No, this is illogical.

I don’t need to hear this.

It’s called counter phobic.


There’s a word for everything.

Tell me something.

What you said.

You were very, very stuck.


What unstuck you is the fact that you have a new idea.

Or it’s the fact that you realize that you could stay close, even if you didn’t do everything together.

And it’s not either, or yeah, so I woke up one morning and said, I’ve achieved all my dreams.


I went and flew jets in the Navy and and found the ultimate test in combat, and I started a successful company.

And and I had a beautiful family and I was I was a great dad and I had all the things that I thought I wanted and it wasn’t enough and it was, I was still looking for, So what am I going to do?


What’s important to me?

And but you stuckness was not because of the what’s happening in the business.

You stuckness was more existential and it was more yours or it was both of you.

I think it’s I think I’ve got to own it more.

I think it was more on me because because I was the idea guy and I ran out of ideas.


I’ve done the thing that you’re supposed to do as an entrepreneur.

I had created something out of out of thin air and it was wildly successful Beyond even my own dreams and and then it dried up and I really had to grieve the loss and you know to borrow jacko’s term extreme ownership.


I mean that’s like a look in the mirror and say all the successes are because of me and all of the failures are because of me and I really had to get right with the idea that maybe the failure wasn’t because of me.

The market changed, but that is valid.


Also for the beginning.

Things worked extremely.

Well, not just because of you.

Oh, absolutely, you’re Rising tide floats.

Understand the extreme ownership is also a hyper individualistic view.


It’s all about you.

The good and the bad.

No, neither is the bad but neither is all the good.

It was him.

There was the market.

There was a it’s a combination of everything that allowed you to flourish the way you did.

There is no lovely genius.

I’m sorry or a long genius.


That’s the probably the correct one, right?

The lone genius.

Lone genius is often lonely.

It’s always an interaction of multiple facets.

Tell me if I hear you.


I got stuck for two years in a whole crisis because in some way my premise was wrong.

And the premise was, I have done all of this by myself.

And therefore I’m responsible for the whole failure by myself.


And since I couldn’t accept that, I hadn’t done it all by myself.

I didn’t know how to let go of the other side, because once I accept that, I’m not the source of all failure than I have to accept that.

I’m not the source of all success.


And meanwhile, I’m sitting there on my ass constantly trying to squeeze creativity out of me.

While I’m completely constipated, I’m saying where is the next idea?

Where is the next idea?

The stuckness?

He alludes to wasn’t.


Just some matter of fact shortness of ideas.

We’re talking about someone who became crushed by the burdens of responsibility because he needed to come up with a new idea that would be able to feed all the people that he brought into this business including Two of his brothers.


I mean, yeah, you kind of let it out.

That’s right.

And I think you have some super responsible for when you bring two brothers in.

I’m sure you must feel constantly.

The business should even stay alive just for them.

I’ll be fine, but they, I need to make sure that they are taken care of right there.


So I can see the weight of all the responsibility.

Creating so much anxiety, that you cannot be creative, creativity, and anxiety are at odds with each other.


When you’re anxious, you’re Vigilant, when you’re anxious, you’re trying to make sure that things stay a certain way that you saved that nothing is bad is going to happen.

When you’re in that Vigilant State, you can’t be exploratory.

Playful curious imaginative, creative Innovative Etc.



What came first the idea or the idea of the possibility that you could separate possible possibility?

So the very thought that you could and that it’s not an we are together or we are apart but that you could have some businesses together and some apart freed you from a loyalty bind and it also freed me a little bit from I don’t have to take care of his brothers. and I say that and sort of sounds-, maybe it feels a little bit but like If we look at our business over the past year and a half and we were pure economists.


I don’t think we would have kept this thing open to me.

The only reason I was okay with it was because we were providing those guys with paycheck.

And we were taking care of them until we really figured out our program and we could afford to do it.

That’s what your mother did.


Yeah, I think you’re right.

And you admire it to do.

So life is not always about being pure economists know.

And I don’t look back on that and go man.

I wish I didn’t do it.

I look back on and say I’m glad we were able to do it but that you didn’t add.


If you don’t add that.

He’s left with a different feeling about what you’re saying true.

Yeah, and I wait a minute weighs on me, but that was a big ask.

You know, they they’ve been living very lean and and I asked Jay to give them a bonus and we’re not in the black and and we are going to do that.


Because you don’t want to disappoint him.


Yes, well sure.

That is certainly part of it, which I actually don’t think.

Is that?

No people.

This is not about good bad.

Good bad.

This is about also understanding.


What are the motivations.


What drives you.

Of course, you say I was convinced, but underneath you say, I was convinced and I have to admit that the presence of his brothers fill in the Gap, you know.

Yes, he did agree with me, but when push comes to shove, I do feel like I did convince him.


So the burden is on me.

The obvious is what you agreed on and what you did.

Nice super nice, but then there is a little extra.

Yes, and it’s those pieces.

Those extras that we actually don’t talk about.


Which leads me to ask you.

You talk about a lot of things.

What are some of the things that you don’t talk about?

But it’s funny.

So when you were saying about these little pieces that we don’t talk about, I was trying to think and decide why we don’t talk about it.


I feel like potentially we don’t Because it’s understood.

I know that Mike feels the overall responsibility didn’t have to tell me that for me to know it and I know that he knows that I feel a bit of a burden.


And I’ve talked about it because he knows right.

I just, I do wonder if it would have been more beneficial to check in every once in a while with it.

We we both assumed that the other one new and, and, and that led to some of the isolation.


I mean, at least, you know, we we had always depended on each other.

I mean, literally, you know, lives I depended on you with my life and, and yet during this period, when I had this crushing anxiety with my best friend and business partner sitting right next to me.


I still felt alone during that time.

Yeah, and I did, I did too for my stuff.

If we spent four hours in a day talking about what these new ideas we’re going to be and then Mike had to go home to his kids.

I had actually then start doing my job because what we were doing in my mind was his job for the past four hours.


Now, I actually have to do everything that keeps the bills paid.

And actually, you know, gets a gets keeps the company going which The super frustration that I didn’t ever really like share often.

Maybe, maybe not ever really man that I feel it and still do and I would I would offer to help but He wouldn’t let me because I’m organization is not my thing.


To me, the ideas don’t come when there is obstruction.

And the obstruction you just described it’s one thing for you to know that a stressed because he feels the burn of responsibility on everybody and it’s one thing for you to know that he stressed because he needs to make sure that he can do the payroll and it’s a turtle but the fact that you know, it doesn’t do much for the other person.


If you don’t say it.

Yeah, it’s like buying a gift that you don’t offer.

So what?

So you went out then you bought a gift but you never gave it.

The place where you are awakened alone at night.


Each of you fretting about your own thing that extra space.

What really makes the difference is the fact that the other one Witnesses it and says, I see you in your predicament that I see.


You is what ultimately makes you feel less alone.

And when you feel this alone, you don’t have to put all your psychic.

Into self-protection.

And into the burden of responsibility that surround you.

So the envelope can open up it can widen, the space is created and the ideas can start to commit.


One of the most important things of your relationship with him, is that he is your brother of choice, but he’s the one with whom you were not having to be the oldest because all your other brothers, you feel responsible for this one was the equal one.


Do you feel at all responsible for me?

Yes, that’s the question that needed to be asked.

Yeah, that’s a beginning one.

It’s good.

Yeah, and and and I know it’s not fair, and I know that you don’t need me to be responsible for you.

But the whole time, this whole thing was percolating in my head, a huge piece of it was where’s the place for Jay?


Because I feel like if I found something and you didn’t.

What does that mean for us?


I appreciate that.

Thank you.

I don’t, I don’t want you to feel left behind if this thing takes off and it’s wildly successful and you’re still looking for your next thing.


And three years.

I’m trying to Shield you from paying that doesn’t even exist yet.

But but that’s actually it’s extraordinary, caring mind you, you know, if I do well, I want to part of it, and if you don’t do well, I’d want to know that.


I didn’t let you go into the drain by yourself.


Yeah, but did you know the thing that he would feel really bad if he went and it became successful and you another part of it, you know that?


Yeah, and I think coming to terms with the fact that I’m okay with that if I’m not as stoked on it as he is, and I don’t need to be a party to that in the same level. and also, I need Aviation back in my life, like, I don’t have aviation in my life nearly as much as I want to and I feel like it’s a like a whole.


And and so I feel like that is a part of my life that I am not fulfilling right now and I want to fulfill it how.

So want to do business.

I want to be in charge of my own.


Business company.

I just wanted to be with Aviation.

Know what I’m hearing.

It’s and I’m hearing a story in in many directions.


But piece of the story talks about the complementarity and about how much each of you has added to the other and a piece of the story talks about how the lawyer to you have for each other, at some point, began to compromise yourself.


It’s like, how do I hold onto myself while I’m with you?

And how much of me do I have to give up in order for the US?

Not to dissolve.

And so you stop thinking about Aviation you start thinking about about anything for that matter.

You start having no thoughts at all anymore.


And just anxiety.

The power of the relationship was so strong, that it was more important than the individuals.

And for a while.

That’s actually quite amazing.


You don’t see it immediately.

The moment at which you begin to feel.

Feel that the price of the self that has been given up has become too big and what does it mean to big?

Is that?

It no longer is serving the US.



Gender salmon, describing ground.

That’s incredibly accurate.


Do you need another partner?


Then you’re like to work in Partnership.

You’ve lived in Partnership.


I don’t think that I do.

I mean, I and because I do I feel like that I value the opinions of others.


And so that, I like to think that I would stop and listen and be very Mindful and give that it’s full credit.

So I don’t think I need a 50/50 partner, always being there to say it.

I don’t think you need a partner either.


What I fear for you, is your ability to manage the whole, the big picture and not just focus on what you want to focus on and blow off what you don’t like right.

Because historically, Mike does not do what he doesn’t want to do.


Talk to him.

My biggest fear for you going forward in something where I’m not holding your hand, for lack of a better term, is I don’t know how you can execute all these meetings, all these people, all these relationships.


Without somebody helping.

You man along with that managing you?

Yes, absolutely.

And if that’s the world’s most incredible executive assistant, maybe it maybe that’s what I’ve been fuck.

I don’t know man.


Maybe maybe it’s just that.

I want to relieve, you of that responsibility.

I want you to be the world’s best executive assistant.

You don’t want to manage the shit.

I don’t want to do anymore and it’s not fair to you to ask you that right?

Yes, that’s but there’s also another dynamic.

Because he does it.


So well, you do it, less and less and because you do it less and less, he does it more and more.

And because he does it more and more, you become even more, the person who doesn’t have to think about that, which you don’t like.

And because you don’t have to do that, which you don’t like he becomes the person who doesn’t like?


What that which you don’t want to do.


Yeah, really gains a little momentum that way.

You lost your practical skills and new lost your vision.

Yes, I understand.

You may say he’s the idea and he’s the UPS but the idea has some ups and the UPS has some ideas, but when it becomes too uneven and each one, literally Farms out to the other that which they don’t feel.


So confident about, we’re right back where we started.

Then slowly you lose even the piece of you that has this.


Is that new?

What would we just said now?

Yeah, we haven’t gone that far.



I was talking about it with my girlfriend and I was telling her about Mike’s new idea quite excitedly, and she was like, sound secure.

You’re really excited for him.

And I said, I could, I believe in this one.


She’s a great.

So so where does that leave you and I said, what do you mean?

Like, I’ll play some role in it.

You should know like right now.

Where does that leave you?

And I said, well, I’m gonna I want to run the business, the current business.

I’ll just keep doing.

I’m doing making sure that money is getting paid and we’re paying the bills into pay, and trying to get these deals sold.


Until there aren’t any more to sell or isn’t anything else to do?

She was, like, what is that fair?

I said, well, yeah, I mean, I think so, like he’s working on his new thing.

I don’t have anything yet.

So let me just work on this and then I’ll figure out what the new thing is.

And then I heard myself saying that I was like, you know, I don’t actually think that’s fair.


Yeah, obviously, there’s a lot at play there.

Like I would never ask you to do that.

You never did.

You never once asked me to, I know, and I don’t want you to, and, and I know that that, I mean, I just don’t worry about money.


I did I just don’t and I know that you do and I hate that for you and there’s two worries about money.

There’s worry about money.

Like I need to be the richest guy in the room, which I don’t think either of us are worried about that.

And then there’s worried about money.

Like I got to pay the bills.


Somehow Mike has the ability to not really worried about that probably because he doesn’t pay many of his bill.

The wife pays his own bills and I pay his work bills.

And so just like, I shed my burden of maybe vision and creativity for the future.


He can shed his burden of money, because J is going to take care of it.


It’s called Outsourcing.

He’s, so he doesn’t have to be anxious because you carry it, right?

And vice versa.

He carries the ideas and you don’t have to ask.

What do I want?

Maybe, you know, I think you need to confirm that for me that when you are the only child of a single mother.


You are much more aware of what is going on.

I wasn’t as a kid.

I remember, I remember making fun of mom for her shitty jeans and beat up sneakers.

Like why do you wear that stuff?


And if you have new jeans because she gave them to you because I always had the new stuff and it took a minute to realize that and you I think my relationship to money is more about risk tolerance.

Like, I’m, I always I’ve always been okay, even when I had nothing and I’m not afraid to lose everything that I have, because I know I can get it back.


I can go out and find a way to get some if I need to.

And yours would be.

The opposite.

Mine would be.

It took an incredible amount of effort anxiety, risks that I would rather not have on, but accepted / knew, I needed to, to make the returns that we wanted to make.


And therefore, we made that money and when it goes away.

So he says, I don’t mind if I lose everything because I know I can get it back.

Yeah, and you say I earned it?


I don’t want to lose it all.

Does your dad enter that to narrative too?

Well, he was not a good businessman.

So maybe this is me being better.


You know, my mom said I love everything about your father and I see so much of him and you the one thing I would love is if you’re not. terrible with money and or at business, like your dad was so, I considered a failure.


Failure and what?

I’m not.

Exactly sure.

But it’s a failure.

I should have made the right decisions.

I should have planned ahead should show choji appropriate ways.

You began by saying we have different attitudes to money and to risk taking.

But now, I got curious.


How would you describe your relationship to this amazing word that we could spend three hours just talking about.


I put the most pressure on myself.

And I think a lot of that comes from this hole. success or failure thing because I historically do very well at what I choose to do, and I believe that I am incredibly High achiever and I’m capable of anything that I choose to go do. and I, but I pick those things specifically, because I don’t want to do anything that I don’t win at, so I’m terrified of failing.


And it plays into business and personal.


I have all these challenges growing up and in trying to achieve this dream of being a fighter pilot.

And so the challenges were what?


As I was growing up.

Well, I I grew up without a dad.

So challenge number one, maybe in high school.

I got.

I had a bad accident between your Junior and Senior year.

I got shot in the face at a party with a real big gun.


It was a real formative thing in my life.

Many say I should have died, the very lucky that I did not.

I am very fortunate, the way I recovered.

I think a lot of it was attitude driven.

I believed that I was going to recover a hundred percent and still go to the Naval Academy and still fly Fighters and I did.


And I succeeded in that lifelong dream of being a fighter pilot.

In the Navy, I want to be the best fighter pilot.

I wanted to be the best Squadron mate to all my buddies.

Like that’s what I was.

So anyway, this whole, this whole story came up from this relationship question.


I never had time nor priority in my life, even though I wanted it.

I never made any space for it.

And then when I got out of the Navy, I made it.

We moved to Midland Texas to get in the old business because now I need to succeed at something else.

I never had a year-long relationship with a woman.


I am in one now and it’s a huge huge deal.

But I think generally we talked about is my fear of commitment and I don’t know if we talked about like, why I fear that commitment.

I don’t even know hundred percent if I know II.


Do I think probably a lot of it has to do with loss.

You know, my dad from a young age.

I think, also a lot of it has to do with, like, Am I going to be good at this?

Am I going to succeed at this?

So, that’s why I say that, this, this concept of success and failure has also driven personal life night and to me, the ability to not personalize.


And not to think of it as success and failure in the extreme ways that you do is what allows people to be serial entrepreneurs in the more in a better way than others.

I see that.

What makes the difference is, is the ability to let go because if all you think is I’m a failure.


You can’t think about the next idea.

Yes, your hijacked into your thoughts about yourself.

Which is what kept you stuck for two years, too.

And I mean you don’t even know how extreme this is for him.


He’s he won the World Championships in are racing.

He’s the guy that came a fighter pilot after getting shot in the face.

That doesn’t happen.

So so he’s he’s achieved these incredible things.

So now he’s the guy that can’t fail.

I feel it when he talks.


Don’t worry.

I get it and the higher you go in the, in the higher, you can fall.

FanDuel, or you can fall.

And a part of your closeness to this guy is because you sit in that cockpit where you are, literally on perched, on the edge between life and death.


And when you come out of there alive, you have conquered your fear of loss with him.


He said before it before the, we walked in here that I’m the only person who’s ever committed to.


So no wonder it was terrifying for me to do my own thing and not have him be a part of it.

I mean, it feels like a breakup.

It doesn’t feel like it is, it is a separation.

It’s not a breakup, but it is a separation.

You know, and the one person that he’s trusted.


Do you have a sense that you understand?

The response that his responsibility doesn’t just come from nowhere.

He knows what it means for you to have trusted him in this way.

Yeah, as you said earlier, you don’t have to tell him, right?


It loses out.

And he this really feels it.

It’s not just a feeling.

It’s an embodied experience.


Lay it on him for a minute.

I mean, that was probably the hardest part about about moving forward with this.


This new idea was What if there’s not a spot for you there?

Because you’ve, you’ve given me the one thing that you’ve not given anybody else giving me the trust to do life together and What an awful thing to reject that?


Yeah, well, I hadn’t really considered it at that at that level.

Yeah, me neither but it makes sense.

I mean, I feel better.


It’s okay.

Absolve your responsibility because you see stuck to me is like a system of roots Underground.

You get to see the surface of the stuck.

But when something is stuck, is because something else is pulling at it that you can’t always immediately see the roots underneath.


It’s like a tree, you don’t know what they connect to.

I doubt that it’s that sluice work.

That when you actually identify it, you do feel better.

Because it literally opens up obstructions and then whatever are ideas.


Love can come true.

You know, because what happens is that in the end, you don’t recognize either person.

He recognized themselves.

Where’s my confidence?



You know, that’s the piece that they’d put both should have been navel-gazing.

As I was my confidence.

Where’s the guy?

I know?

my guess is, you’re going to Maybe or maybe not have anything to do with this.


This Venture.

You may meet up with another venture.

This may be a period where you do separate Ventures.

Your biggest Venture is probably going to be that you’re going to become a father.

And that will change the entire way, you do business.

And when you will have that, you will also think differently about how heating’s.


Because he in a way has had to focus on the presence of people in his life and what he does about that and you have had to deal on the absence of people in your life and what you do about that.

He’s always come with a multi-perspective.


You’ve always come with a singular perspective and the only multiple you got is when he shuts a reflection on you.


Now you have somebody else’s.

Hey, dude, that doesn’t sound very fair, you know, and so you come into the conversation with him very differently and it’s going to just amplify like that.


Because she’s going to see you come home in the evening.

That’s awesome.

I need that.

I think it’s life-changing for you.

Actually, I think you’re right by the end of this session.


Jay and Mike have a new template for what together apart can mean for them in many ways.

It was all already in them, but they needed the permission and they needed the ability to put words to this, intricate system of roots.


Underneath the roots of their childhood, the roots of their transition, the roots of their complementarity, and the roots for a vision for the future, all of that.


It bleeds into the stories of relationships at work.

Esther perel as a best-selling author speaker, and host of the podcast.

Where should we begin to learn more about Esther perel to world to sign up for our newsletter?


Or to apply to be on the podcast?

Go to Esther /.

How’s work?

How’s work is produced by magnificent noise for gimlet and Esther perel Productions.

Our production staff includes Eric Newsome evil Welch over.


Three Sibley, Alex Lewis, Kristen Mueller and are coordinating producer is Lindsey rutowski.

A recording engineer is Anna, Rico acaba.

And Damon, Whittemore is our mix engineer.

The theme song was written by Doug slavin and the executive producers of housework are Esther perel and Jesse Baker.


We would also like to thank nazanin rafsanjani, Matt Lieber, Darien Le Beach Courtney Hamilton Kelly.

Rose, Nick oxen horn, doctor guy, winch Kathryn Minshew and her team at the Muse.

Paul Schneider Thomas, Curry Shawnee avram and Jax all