0:01

Hello, it’s a stir and I’m very pleased to tell you that.

This is a special episode for how is work.

I’ve invited my colleague, Adam Grant, who’s an organizational psychologist and the host of his own podcast work.

0:18

Life to join me on housework.

Both of us have been exploring the Dynamics in the workplace, his ass trying to make work, not suck.

And mine has been looking at the invisible forces that shape workplace Dynamics and relationships, but work has changed, meaning dramatically in just about a few days work.

0:42

That is the source of income, the source of self-worth, the source of Pride, the source of identity, and the ability to take care of ourselves.

And our loved ones is under attack for so many of us and faced, with the threat of losing.

1:00

Our work or of having to lay those who have worked with.

And for us off, work is becoming ever more important at this moment.

As we understand, this changing world is prolonged uncertainty and the acute stress that accompanies it.

1:17

So let’s talk about work.

So Esther, I was hoping you’d bring a couch so that you could lie down.

Yeah, are we not doing therapy tonight?

1:34

Where should we begin?

I feel like you should probably tell me but we’re not doing therapy.

We may do therapeutic Maneuvers.

Okay, good because I feel like going on.

I’m excited to have this conversation because every time I’ve heard you talk about romantic relationships, I find myself substituting in work relationships and thinking that a lot of the wisdom of flies.

1:57

I’m going to start by asking you a question, which is, when you thought about transitioning from kind of the Romantic world to the work worlds.

What did you see as the big similarities and Census in how you look at relationships?

So it’s interesting.

I don’t can experience myself as transitioning.

2:14

I as a therapist have worked for years with people who have work issues and certainly with family businesses.

So it’s just that the podcast has transitions.

However, I look at relational systems and relationships exist, within a context, a cultural political socio-economic context relationships, have expectations, all relationships.

2:36

Do all relationships have boundaries or relationships, if A strong have a foundational truth around trust or relationships, demand responsibility, and accountability communication creativity.

So what changes is the context where I explore the Dynamics and here I moved to work.

2:57

I looked at what are these invisible forces that people bring with them to work and that shape relationships around conflict, communication connection.

And it’s the Context that change is not the thinking about relationships.

3:14

Are you saying we don’t become fundamentally different human beings when we go to work.

Oh, you still believe that.

I don’t know.

I just had to you agree with me.

Of course.

I think this is a very interesting thing.

This notion that you bring.

You know, that there is two views, right?

There’s the view that says, you don’t bring your life to work and I say, what else do you come with?

3:32

You know, we all have a resume that is the professional resume and we all have our relational diary.

That is The Unofficial resume and it all comes with you.

No, I need shapes.

How you do what expectations?

You have?

How you collaborate, how you ask for, help?

Are you compete?

You name it, but then, you know, I keep going.

3:52

We’re going to stay more.

I can say that afterwards.

All right.

So what are the things?

I’ve been thinking a lot about is power, dynamics and relationships and I remember reading a really fascinating analysis of power.

I think it was by Emerson who argued that relationships are more stable.

If there was a slight power imbalance, because if you’re new, Ooh, which person had a little bit more Authority, or more influence than the, the structure was was stable.

4:16

It was consistent.

It was predictable.

Whereas, if people had equal power, they were constantly jockeying for position, and it wasn’t clear where anyone should stand.

And it seems like that Dynamic is more common in romantic relationships than it is and professional relationships.

Because at work, we have hierarchies, right?

4:34

We know who the boss is, we often know.

If not who has power in a team, who has more status, or who has Our accomplishments as really curious to hear how you think about this.

So we can have an interesting chat about Tower, but are you going to save that for later to or we’re going to talk about now that I could not?

4:54

But I it’s so interesting.

What you’re highlighting is the kind of the tension that comes, you know, from the this Dynamic tension that comes from the difference.

In the discrepancy.

I look at Power little bit differently.

I would put it like this.

There is no relationship.

That doesn’t have a power.

5:10

I mention its intrinsic to relationships.

It’s not good or bad.

It’s just part of the fabric of relationships because in relationships people have expectations and when you have expectations, it comes with a degree of dependency reliable Reliance and that dependency confers to the peoples on whom you depend Power by definition and that power gets neutralized by making it become something that is benevolent, which we then called Trust.

5:40

So that it will become power to rather than power over.

But everybody understands that power isn’t just a vertical axis that comes with authority anybody’s ever had.

A two-year-old knows that, I mean this idea that power is just matter of authority and hierarchy, that’s one.

5:57

But you can have power that comes from the bottom up.

You can have power.

That is the power that constantly kind of deflect the energy, the power that takes the authority away from the people in Authority.

That is also power.

It is Actually multifaceted and intrinsic to relationship and the question that you want to ask is is this power helping the system, trife do what it needs to do the relationship, whatever the relationship is or is this power that becomes oppressive abused and and with which means a breach of trust.

6:33

So there’s something weird, you agree with the notion that trust is intrinsic trust itself.

It’s like Intrinsic to relationship.

Yeah, of course, I would definitely not argue with that.

There’s something that’s a little odd, though, about defining power, in terms of dependence, so that there is a strong.

6:50

Sociological tradition of saying, look, the power to relationship is, how much do I depend on you?

Or how much do you depend on me in an organization though?

That would suggest that the CEO is the least powerful person because the CEO is completely dependent on everyone else to do their jobs or else, the organization fails.

7:06

And yet, that’s not how we traditionally look at Power.

I think it’s like, Traditionally wrong.

Well, we might be, but are you saying the CEOs the most powerless person in the organization?

Don’t think it’s this or that?

I think the CEO has both end.

You always have these paradoxes and they drive me crazy because I want answers.

7:22

But wait, wait, but you must first decide and I want to hold complexity but it’s a difference.

That’s the difference between a clinical psychologist and an organizational.

So I thought that was the difference between Americans and Europeans.

We can put But into but you’re right and I want to I want to become less of a simplifier.

7:44

So let me let me try to complicate and say when I think about power from a psychological perspective, I think about it.

Also in terms of influence, which is about control over resources.

So one of the reasons that a CEO is powerful is the CEO has control over resources that lots of people at lower levels of the organization, value and watts.

8:01

And so, yeah, I would say, the CEO is dependent in some ways, but that the resource control net outweighs the dependencies and so the CEO is still powerful.

When you think that, these two people don’t perform, if the people decide to go on strike, if the people under produce, don’t give the people decide to undermine the grand project.

8:21

Doesn’t that?

Give them power?

It can sure as he go though, also can take power back by saying I’m going to fire those people or I’m going to stop paying those people.

Yep.

I’m gonna replace those people.

Right?

And so these Dynamics get very complicated.

Where do you draw the line on who has more power and total or do you not care?

8:37

Are you willing to take the multiple layers?

No, I think that I always look at who has power in this matter.

Okay, good.

So know what do you think has more power and our relationship here right now?

Yeah or just in general.

I don’t know.

I’m curious at this moment between the two of us.

8:54

It alternates how so you know, it’s like we had this conversation.

You think ping pong I think billiard, right?

So ping-pong is this dyadic thing where you try to surprise and to make you know, I think Billy asked is about, you know, this ball has to go in the hole and which is the one that I need to kick for that one to go.

9:16

And that means that you have to be able to think multi-perspective.

Rather.

And I think, when I think about power, I look at the interdependence of parts and on some things, I say, powerful.

What and is it power to or power over?

9:32

And is it power that actually, you know, I’ll give you one of the I’m switching, mid-sentence, but it is an awesome question.

No, no.

Because listen to this.

It’s a it was a Moment.

Like, You old.

Have we have moment like that too.

That’s like a paradigmatic shift, right?

9:49

I’m in training.

This is many years back, but it stayed with me like a like the Vista opened up and I was working with families with depression.

And at one point, my teacher says, the depressed has all the power.

10:06

And I thought, this is a moment where you stop because I’m thinking you’re gonna do Nick, you feel powerless.

You feel hopeless.

He feels helpless you, you have no energy.

You have no sense of meaning, no purpose.

It’s a, how can that person have the power?

And then they said, because that person through their impotence is actually activating the competence of everybody else who is trying to lift them to whom they end up saying, no to everything.

10:31

They suggest to them.

And in the end, the competent people feel as defeated.

And deflated as the depressed one, that is power.

That was a moment for me where I began to think.

This is way more complicated than what it looks like.

What you see isn’t necessarily what it is.

10:48

And so that’s how I look at Power.

I look at the way that, you know, an eyebrow, you know, if one of us was talking and the other one, just kind of had that moment that says dismissed.

We just this that’s power that makes you instantly feel like, you know you re relevant, you know, you pushed aside.

11:05

I suddenly feel very conscious in my eyebrows.

Don’t look at me.

No, I think that’s an understanding of think.

It’s in the small things like this.

What the power of somebody is the power to make.

You feel that you matter.

We are creatures of meaning.

It’s the power to make you feel like you’re irrelevant.

11:23

And I think that who has the power is often that, you know, and that can be performed by the one who pretends to care, less.

So I want to come back to the question that I asked.

You have more to lose than me, that those kind of game.

I mean, power games are fascinating fascinating.

11:42

I think so too.

So, I’m asking you this question about our power dynamic in part, because I think it’s a lens into understanding how you think about power.

So, when you say power shifts back and forth in this conversation, how do you see it shifted?

So I think I am trying to gripe to group gripe group to reach for.

12:03

I’m trying to reach for you know places where I think do you agree with me?

Do you see what I’m saying?

Can you build on what I’m saying?

And then sometimes I think that you have an approach of I agree with this, I disagree with that, you know?

And to me it’s like oh is it a debate?

12:20

Or is it a conversation?

And but I know you are not know what you think it is.

I want to But because I think, when it goes into agree disagree, I start to, you know, if you disagree five times and I’m going to want to prove myself to you and then I feel that you have, you know, I want your approval.

12:38

I proved myself to someone to from whom, I want your approval, and that means that you have power, right?

It’s not bad.

It just is so, so I think that’s the thing that I am still testing at this moment is how we going to have debate or conversation.

Are we building is better now?

12:55

I I think I’m trying to empower you to shape the conversation, the direction you want to go?

No, I think that part of the reason that I sometimes default to debate is, I think we sometimes learn new things when our assumptions are tested and questioned.

13:14

And so the idea that you can say something and then I can disagree with it and decide that I was wrong is to me a signal of learning right on the other hand.

I think that one of the things I love about having a conversation with you every time we do it.

Is I Come Away with with new lenses for understanding things.

They’re not necessarily correcting misconceptions or you know, changing a belief, I had.

13:33

But they’re giving me a new ways of thinking about the topics that I care about and I love that.

So my hope is we’re going to do that tonight.

I think we have a little bit and I talk with you is you force me to go for rigor?

Because I am case, based, rather than evidence-based.

My research is different.

13:48

I can go and look at the psychological research on a lot of things, but that’s not the reality in which I exist.

So, when you see, The research says, then I think I should go do some research and did you?

Yes, I went yesterday and I read a chunk of research on trust and I listen to what your therapy sessions.

14:08

So we’ve used to become a little bit more, like the other.

So, what did you learn about?

Trust?

This was really interesting because I mean, I can say a lot of things as how I think about trust, but when I went to look at research, what it fundamentally said is that there is an absolute definitional void.

14:28

It is one of those Concepts that is swimming in vagueness.

There is a view that reinforces the notion that trust is a psychological state in which you express the willingness to be vulnerable, you know, based on positive expectations with others then.

14:45

There is a view that looks at trust as process rather than State, and it looks at trusting processes like it, intentions expectations Behavior starts etcetera.

But in the end, you know, there is no agreement.

The most complex, psychological experiences.

15:02

Subjective experiences actually are very hard to Define.

So that said, you know, I continue to look at other things in that.

People who said things that I found really interesting and when I can’t come up with research, I go to philosophers and Poets who have a different way of trying to Grapple with the unexplainable.

15:23

So Adam Phillips, this wonderful say English psychoanalyst starts to talk about how trust is a risk masquerading as a promise.

So there was very beautiful.

Then he said, trust is a word that we often put too much trust in that.

That sentence is self-defeating, you know, Rachel botsman talked about how trust is an active or confident engagement.

15:45

The Unknown by definition trust is a leap of faith.

Therefore, if you think transparency leads to trust probably not always sometimes.

But at other times transparency leads to surveillance surveillance is the opposite of trust.

Trust is what you live with what you don’t know.

16:01

If you always have to know you’re not trusting, this was such a surprise to me when Rachel captured this.

I thought I had always thought of transparency as a driver of trust, right?

So if you want somebody to have positive expectations about your behavior, if you want them to be comfortable, being vulnerable with you.

You then you shouldn’t hide anything from them.

16:17

And then Rachel said, wait a minute.

If you trust me, you don’t need to know what I’m hiding.

And oh, that, that is a big frame shift.

I looked at it developmentally.

I tried to apply it, you know, and I told of it actually, where does this concept come from?

16:33

And I don’t know where she routed it.

But for me, it was, you know, around eight months.

The kid takes a little object and they drop it.

And for the first time, they realized that this object continues to This even when they don’t see it.

And then there is that game where they pick it up.

16:50

You.

Did, you throw it, you pick it up?

They throw it and they develop this thing called object constancy object constancy, then leads to people constancy.

And it’s Peek-a-boo.

Peek-a-boo means that, even when I don’t see you, you’re still there.

And even though you’re not seeing me, I’m still there and it becomes the foundation, against the fear of Abandonment.

17:08

It is the foundation of trust, you will exist inside of me when you’re not there and I exist inside of you.

You when I am not there and therefore, I don’t need to check on you because I can trust you.

I know, you will come back, etc.

Etc.

And I think the, the developmental roots of that idea that she presents a very strong.

17:28

Well, I as a quick aside, I know.

Now, next time someone asks me about you.

I’m going to say Esther perel can even make a game of peekaboo psychologically, interesting, which is not an easy task.

It is the you Versus game that every kid plays actually, I’d still it’s really across the globe that notion but it really anchors.

17:48

You, I mean that to me is the beginning of trust.

Well, so, when I think about taking this into the workplace, then one of the things that jumps to mind is I got a really interesting query from a reporter a couple weeks ago.

Who said, what do you think about organizations that have practices of requiring open calendars?

18:03

Oh, yes, and I immediately thought of, of this, this particular, I guess Revelation for me.

Where I would have said in the past, yeah, of course, everyone should have their calendars open.

No one should need to hide what they’re doing.

And to me that’s that’s a symbol of low trust potentially, right?

Then if I need to know that I can access, what everyone else is doing it, every moment that I’m not very confident that they’re going to do what they’ve committed to doing, go to toilet arianism.

18:27

It might be, I mean that’s where people spied on everybody.

You know, it’s transparency is surveillance.

It’s really not just, I have nothing to hide kind of thing.

It’s, you’re entitled to privacy.

See the point is exactly that while you’re not there.

18:43

I know you’re doing your job while I am gone.

I know you’re not rolling me under the bus.

You have my back.

We are in this together.

We share, meanings, expectations.

And we predict that we are there for each other.

That’s the foundational truth of trust.

And I don’t see that coming up because I know your agenda.

19:00

There’s also a power component that you don’t wait.

You’re now trying to get us into agree disagree.

No, I’m trying to complicate things and learn here.

Astaire.

Come on.

On.

No, but I mean do you think that transparency that decided that I have nothing to hide?

19:16

You know, when somebody says to me I have nothing to hide.

Does that?

That doesn’t elicit trust inside of me.

Actually.

Sorry.

No, actually I said why are you saying this to me saying this, you must have something?

Yeah, it sounds a little bit like projection bias, gone, wrong II, agree with that.

19:32

For the record.

I also think there’s a power Dynamic here.

That’s that’s really intriguing which is when when I’m making my calendar.

And I’m trying to, to assert that my schedule has been determined, right?

You can take a look at it and you can go and claim time on it if you want on my terms and that feels like a little bit of a power move.

19:52

What do you think?

I’m you from?

Yeah.

Yeah that I’m basically saying look, you know my more important than you are.

So here, here’s my calendar.

Pick what’s convenient for you, but what’s convenient for you is already predetermined by what’s convenient for me.

Which is why I hate whenever someone sends me a calendar.

Lincoln says, sign up on it because because I feel like particularly if the person is asking me for time, or asking for my help or advice.

20:15

I feel like they should probably accommodate my schedule and my convenience as opposed to.

I’m going to impose on you and a time that is most inconvenient for you.

Right?

Can you help me on this moment?

Yes, ideally today or tomorrow.

Yeah, so I was, I was thinking about something that, you know, could I ask you please?

20:35

Because if we’re going to Define trust, I think what’s really important is to talk about how we build trust, what we do with breaches of trust, and can we rebuild trust once it’s broken?

Because I do think that, at a time, when people lived in a more in more traditional structures, such as in societies, and you kind of, it does always been breaches of trust there.

20:59

It’s it’s not like this is a new story, but when things are clearer and you have clear expectations and, you know, the hierarchy and you know, what is the role of the father, the mother, the children, the bosses, you know, the big brother versus the younger brother.

The one who entered the family business, before the other it Citra.

21:17

You could create a set of expectations that were what you’re going to trust for what?

I think that in this moment where things are much more fluid and diffuse and we need to Define all of that trust has become a major centerpiece, you know, there’s a lot of restlessness in the realm of relationships at this moment at work as well.

21:42

And as lot of what to do when people experience breaches of trust as happened to definitely after the me tutoring and it shakes the whole Foundation because all your expectations are now up for Was I right about you.

Did I completely misunderstand?

21:58

Who I thought I was for you?

Did I completely redrawn what?

This partnership was actually a burden and use your.

You have nothing to hold on to because the relationship.

So, now comes the question.

How do we build it?

How do we rebuild it?

And what is the impact of the breach of trust?

22:16

Which today becomes almost a loss of identity.

I thought, I knew what I am here and who we are together here.

And I said, That about romantic relationships, but I have experienced it with the partners in business.

No less.

Yeah.

So, let’s start on the repair side.

22:33

In some, we hit in some cases, it’s harder, but I think the the Dynamics are sometimes a little bit simpler.

So my reader research on trust repair, says that number one, an apology seems to be less important than an expression of responsibility.

Absolutely, you know saying I’m sorry showing that I feel remorse is nice emotionally.

22:50

It doesn’t convince you necessarily that I accept the harm that I’ve done to you.

Also that I’m going to change my behavior moving forward and so I always look for someone to say look, you know, whether I whether I feel that what I did was wrong, I recognize that I hurt you.

23:05

I take responsibility for that.

And now I’m also going to take responsibility for adjusting in the following ways to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

And that to me feels like the foundation of trust repair.

What do you think is missing from that equation?

I think the first part is very much the way I like to think of it as well.

23:23

It’s the acknowledgement of the wrongdoing of the hurt.

Even if you think you were a legitimate and justified, in what you do.

I actually think that breaches of trust are part of relationships relationships, is connection disconnection reconnection.

Its Harmony disharmony repair.

It’s not, it’s not a problem.

23:40

It’s in the nature of relationships that you’re going to do breaches, betrayal is a different story.

And I think that betrayal In the shadow of trust all the time.

But so the first thing is the acknowledgement and it involves an element of remorse or guilt sometimes.

23:56

For what you’ve done to the other person, not necessarily for your own action.

The second one, what you call about responsibility in the rebuilding, I call it the Vigilante.

It’s like you show the benevolence that the relationship matters to you because a breach of trust who says, to the other person not just that they’ve lost power but they’ve lost value.

24:14

You don’t matter.

Therefore.

I put my interest to head of yours.

Yes, I do.

The thing that suits me, it basically is a message of devaluation of the other person so that when Evelyn thing that you talk about is crucial, I would say the thing I like to add is the need to create new experiences.

24:32

You know, what happens when people have been shaken is that they don’t go back to the state of naivety that they had before that leap of faith in which they existed.

They do enter what lacquer - calls.

The secondary.

Naivety, you trust with your eyes open.

24:48

And you wait you just don’t do like this anymore and think everything is fine because and and that demands new experiences generative experiences that will create new layers of cells that are going to sit on the ones that really need to die.

25:04

And evacuate.

How is that different from trust but verify Just the same y’all trust, you trust with your eyes, open means that you but buddy, but it’s not trust and suspend be suspicious the whole time.

You know, if you are in this cortisol level high cortisol levels of constant checking, checking to you’re not trusting, you know, I can have all your codes.

25:26

All your, it’s the same in relationship.

When people say, give me all your passwords, give me who trusts on that, you do surveillance, but the surveillance doesn’t breed trust.

I like to give my passwords in case I forget them.

Maybe a different Dynamic is the question but it’s my wife.

25:43

Mostly.

Yeah, I think I think that that tracks for me.

I’m I’m curious and about the the more basic question of building trust.

And how you think about that?

Rachel also changed my thinking about this.

She said to me one day that you can’t build trust, you have to earn trust.

25:59

And I was, I was annoyed by that actually because it took the power to build trust out of my hands, right?

That this is not something I can gain its regardless of what I do.

You Have the choice then to either grant me trust or deny it.

And that made me feel like I lack control over building the kind of relationships that I want to build.

26:19

And so I wondered, if you could help me get out of that trap moment.

This is a perfect example because you because you can’t make me trust you.

You think you have no power when in fact you have all the power to do the things that you can do, which hopefully sure will make me trust you.

26:39

But now, Have probabilistic power instead of certain power, Which is less power, who has certain power.

I mean, where’d you get that idea too many comic books growing up developmental.

It’s good for latency, boys.

I didn’t know, but I mean, this thing’s Candace can be taken away.

26:58

If I mean every powerful guy has had experiences where they thought they had it all and then you know, it can instantly disappear.

I think that the opposite, I mean, yeah, but that’s their, let me see.

Do a lot of things to earn my trust, but I think the earning is the problem, the piece that I am more, this did not such clear about this.

27:17

It’s just a feeling.

It’s trusted dimension in a relationship.

It’s just something that you can elicit.

It’s just something that you confer, you know, I think it’s all a combination of a number of these things and that’s where it’s not.

So clear.

Is it a taut.

27:32

Is it something that gets tested?

For example, a big debate in the trust research is, you know, do you need to trust and A safe, in order to be able to take risks.

That’s one body of research.

Or is it the reverse or is it the fact that you take risks that great that grants you a greater sense of trust?

27:49

But you first have to go into the unknown to then establish the trust.

I can answer that one.

Go ahead.

Yes, the second one.

No, no, it’s both.

It’s both just like, oh yes, I agree.

I think you are agreeing again because you’re going complex, you know, if I say something complicating, your more like an agreement.

28:09

And it’s not that it’s complicated.

It’s that it’s both and because I frankly don’t think that one can prove that it is this versus that I think you know that it is a feedback loop, the more safe you feel, the more to the more risk you take.

28:25

But also the more risk you take and the more trusting you can be sure but as an experimentalist I can ask.

Okay, which is the more important starting condition.

And if you have a chicken in the egg Choice, do you want to do?

You want to start with trust leading to risk taking or is the effect stronger?

Reverse, right.

28:40

I can design those experiments and try to adjudicated so convinced you.

Yeah, but I think developmentally in those moments, right?

Because I think that one of the best places to go, look at how these things get layered is to look at Child Development.

So Child Development, the kid sits on your lap and if all goes well they are secure, they are nested.

29:00

They are safe.

They trust.

And it is from that place that take jumping to the world and they go and they go to explore and to discover and take risks and do their thing then they, Turn around, and they are certain if you’re still there.

And if the base is safe, they do turn around and they go further, and they are experiencing security and risk at the same time in that is the developmental dance.

29:23

I think.

So, I don’t know which one, maybe with some, you know, I have two boys and actually it’s an interesting example for this.

I remember I have one first.

He would go, then he would fall, then he would figure out what to do in order not to fall the other one, would sit study, everybody else fall.

29:40

And then when he understood what not to do, Denny would go, and I just thought this is for life.

One is the risk taker one is the risk manager.

Yeah.

And vote our element and both will create experiences of trust and risk.

Yeah.

Now I think that’s interesting.

29:56

I guess.

What I’m stuck on.

Is you you didn’t like my expectation, that I could have the power to build trust, but I think I think it’s beautiful.

Well, thank you.

Definitely did describe it that way when your head fun of me for like a comic books.

30:12

Nobody to wish to think that you can that you can create the response of the other person.

What you can do is what you can do.

It’s your part.

And then yes, this moment where you wait to see if what you put in is going to create the thing you get back.

30:31

That is the vulnerability moment.

Yeah.

I don’t like that moment on control, so I don’t like it.

I don’t like it at all, and I don’t like it in part.

Because as beautiful, I think it’s sickening to avoid it as much as possible.

30:46

But I say that because I think most of us have a dominant trait, which is the trait where we’re either the most extreme or the trait.

That’s most Central to defining us.

And I’ve noticed over the last few years, when both kind of, I guess reflecting and reading personality research that my dominant trait is conscientiousness.

31:05

I’m a goal-oriented person and that means I will bend and stretch all my Other traits in service of achieving my goals.

I hate the fact that unlike, you know, writing the best book I can write or preparing as hard as I can to give a talk, that’s going to resonate with people when it comes to achieving a goal of building, a great relationship with someone.

31:24

I don’t have the same level of control over over attaining that goal.

Then I do the the more individual goals that I direct myself to and it makes me want to deprioritize relationships because I don’t know if I’ll succeed, I get it.

I totally, I’ve never had that thought.

31:39

Right.

Is this?

What happens in your therapy sessions?

Yes.

Okay.

So now, what do I do?

You wear in a session with me for a moment?

31:56

I would say, for the moment you do nothing.

You just had a new thought, sit with it.

So when you realize that, that that in a way you goat, for the things that you can, pretty much have more agency about From the beginning, to the end.

I sit with that and even me, I have nothing to say, I just take it in and say, wow, that’s a moment.

32:16

Okay.

How long do I have to sit?

You know what it is?

You sit you suddenly say.

And then I watched to see and generally what happens is that that’s the moment that people swallow.

You know, it’s the quiver here.

It’s a moment, it is that vulnerability moment, but it is a moment of insight and change.

32:34

And then from there, whatever happens, you know, either it disappears.

And it’s just was a thought, either.

It becomes the ground of a new Enterprise in personal, or otherwise, so, okay.

So, you know, then of course, you can go home and you can say to your wife or to your partner, you know, I had a daughter.

32:54

I had the conversation with this woman there with her.

Sent and, you know, as I was thinking, and I realized that and then she would say took you so long or something, you know, and look either one values, this, you know, it doesn’t have a monetary value necessarily.

It has an existential value.

33:10

I happen to think that those things matter.

I also think you know in like second, why is there is relationship conversation?

So important at this point, you know, and I think you can have a great job, you can have purpose, you can have a good salary and you can have free food but Nothing will compensate for a poisonous relationship in the workplace with whom you go to bed every night fretting about somebody who is sleeping perfectly fine.

33:35

And that eats people up and that I have done for decades in my practice.

It’s just that I had people come to my office rather than me go to their office.

Well, the worst case is when the person is sleeping fine, because they know you’re fretting, which is that sadistic.

Yes, but one of the things I’m thinking about, as I sit with this thought, is since I first started studying psychology in college, whenever I take values assessments, I come out with with two core values that the top one is helping other people.

34:05

And the other is achieving excellence.

And I was surprised at first that relationships came lower because clearly helping others is such a relational Dynamic.

And I’m suddenly realizing that helping has been my solution to this problem is to say, okay, if my stance on relationships is I want to be helpful.

34:22

Then.

I can still know whether my goal has been achieved or not.

Whereas if the goal is just to build the relationship or to earn trust.

It’s never clear.

Whether I’d made progress and I don’t know whether I’m using my time.

Well when you think, what would you suggest doing with that?

I think when you have trying to get sleep, I really am.

34:39

No, but look, helping is a lot of things, right?

Helping helping makes you feel rich.

I mean, Rich internally, helping is the most powerful antidepressant doing for others helping, you know, generosity brings Joy, helping is indeed, other people need me.

34:58

I will never be alone.

They come to me and protected helping is a state in which I don’t have to be dependent on others because I’m a Others be dependent on me.

A helping, has a lot of aspects to it.

Which one it is for you.

See, this is where it becomes different.

I don’t look for systematization, which I think what organizational psychology has to do because you need to aggregate groups of people.

35:20

I am on the other side of that, where I’m more looking at.

What is the individual Resonance of this thing?

You know, what is, what is helping for you?

What you feel when you give only you can tell me.

If it is a defense against something else only you can tell me if on some level it protects you from other states that you experience, as more vulnerable only you can tell me.

35:44

It’s like the answer that you’re trying to find from me is in you well, that is definitely not helpful.

So we did it work.

We did it work on your giving but now I think so.

I think that’s right.

And I respect and accept the fact that you’re forcing me to do that.

36:00

I would still prefer if you told me the answer, but I understand the impulse.

Not to know, but it’s not just as, in pushing it back on you.

Do you seriously think that I know the meaning of giving for, you know, so, it would be presumptuous for me to just throw out a bunch of stuff.

36:16

I have ideas, but we would be discussing them together and think and then I would ask you.

What do you think about that?

Does that resonate for you is that, you know, and I think that’s a different conversation the dissolution.

I mean that there’s nothing to solve here unless you tell me I want A change it but that’s not what you’re telling me.

36:35

Then there is nothing to serve.

Okay, that my work is done good.

So this this goes to a dynamic that I want to talk about being a people pleaser.

So as there is it, is it fair to say that?

I am more agreeable, more of a people pleaser than you.

Yes, yes.

36:52

Yes.

Yes.

How do you say that?

Because I don’t think of myself as a people pleaser.

Okay.

I don’t think of you as one either which it, which is why I was so pleasantly.

Surprised have to Define what we what goes in the world people pleaser, right?

Mean this people pleaser is a is a history of life.

37:11

It’s not something you become one day.

It’s the way you learned to maintain your attachments.

People pleaser is when you have learned that unless you fulfill the conditions.

The people who need to take care of you won’t be doing it in the way that they should people.

37:26

Pleaser is a fear, you know of not what happens when you please but what happens, you know, how attuned you have become at, what displeasure can mean for others.

And therefore, it’s an avoidance of conflict and therefore, I can say yes to you and to you, and to you, and everybody have said, yes to.

37:43

And then everybody at the end, resents me because I have not been able to fulfill the yeses to all the people, you know, and and in the The end.

I know what everybody else thinks feels and wants.

And I have no clue what goes on inside of me because I’m organized by distract and read that but, you know me very well.

38:04

Yeah, I mean, you know what, I think about when, when I would describe myself as a people pleaser, I think of a few things.

One is, is prioritizing other people’s feelings above your own priorities.

Consistent, consistently.

Yeah, not not in.

Its you’ll get one situation, but habitually, yeah, I think about, you know, Order to avoid conflict, which is the next thing, right?

38:24

I think conflict stems from.

Is this a, is this a test?

No.

No, it’s, it’s really.

It’s what am I avoiding?

I’m avoiding the wrath of others.

Yeah.

No, that’s exactly right.

I don’t want to yeah, it says, the kid who was always afraid of being called to the principal’s office.

That’s, that’s a very much, the The Dread.

38:42

I think the, the non confrontational stance.

Also though is not just a fear of incurring, the wrath of others.

It’s also a fear of damaging the Relationship and thinking about.

Okay, if I can just make this person happy in the moment, then maybe the relationship won’t be broken as a result.

39:00

Now, that means that you are the one who carries the anxiety over the loss of the relationship.

As if you’re the only one who cares about that relationship and that’s not, you know, that is also back to the pirating.

You know, it’s like why is one person living the threat of loss here and where is the other one, you know?

39:20

Yeah.

So I guess on that, I feel like as a recovering people pleaser.

I’ve, I’ve tried to overcome some of these Tendencies.

Some of that came from being trained as a negotiator and then teaching negotiation.

So, that came from learning to do conflict mediation.

39:36

A lot of it has come from just ending up with an accumulating number of requests where I just can’t say no to all of them anymore.

And what about that?

It came with the notion that I can say.

No, and you can be frustrated with that and those two shall Coexist.

39:52

Yeah, it’s that thing that people find impossible to hold its, how do I say no?

And you know, but what if the other person doesn’t like it, they are entitled not to like it.

And those two will live together.

That doesn’t mean the relationship will dissolve because of it.

That’s the fear that people leave its irrational fear.

40:08

Yeah, you know, because the way it gets rationalizes, people said, it’s just not important enough for me.

It’s not worth the conversation.

It’s not worth getting into it it in and it’s all these rationalizations that kind of see, it doesn’t really matter.

Sir, but meanwhile at every step of the game, you’re forgoing you because you literally experience that the relationship only continues if the other people are pleased with you.

40:34

Yeah, which is a pretty sad State of Affairs, if that’s what it takes to maintain a relationship.

How did you learn to tolerate conflict tension, ice agreement?

I think it started probably in relationships where I felt like there was a secure base that I didn’t have to question whether You know, if I hurt the person’s feelings or I said something that might be a little bit challenging that it wouldn’t damage the relationship because the relationship was either so strong or they were secure enough in their own ego, that they weren’t going to, you know, they were going to be insulted by it.

41:07

I think I probably over corrected on that at some point though and decided that any time I have a relationship with someone, of course, they will know that when I’m challenging them, it’s because I want to help them.

And I’ve discovered of late that there are moments when I have not made that clear, and I’ve regretted that I think that it could you have said differently or done differently.

41:24

Oh, I mean, I think it’s a simple thing to start out.

It’s you know, it’s fundamentally about just establishing that tough love is the way you helped.

So what I would have done, I think about a situation.

I had recently with a student.

I was advising one of the first things I could have done is to say, look when I was in grad school, one of the best things that a mentor did for me was tear apart.

41:42

The first 37 pages of the paper.

I had spent my whole year on and then tell me there is a gem on page 38 and that tough love changed it to Correct trajectory of my career.

And I made a commitment at that point to pay forward.

And so when I tell you what, I’m about to tell you, I do it out of, you know, what?

41:58

I hope is some version of long-term.

Kindness that I care about your future success enough that I’m willing to, you know, potentially hurt your feelings in the present.

And I’ve I think I’ve just taken for granted that people know, that’s true.

You know, I was raised like that.

42:13

This was pretty much much more of a cultural norm.

This explains a lot growing up.

I mean, it’s like we were not phrased as much view were not pumped up and you had to learn the distinction between this is not good.

42:29

Versus you are not good and it was, it was not an easy thing to learn.

You know, that is the fundamental distinction in Psychology between guilt and shame.

Yes, correct, correct, but it is Very much the educational model of the large majority of the world actually.

42:46

So I’ve noticed that one of the, maybe the manifestations of this upbringing for you, is you are not at all.

Shy about asking other people for help.

I think a much Bolder about it, then then I typically am.

And I was curious about whether this is related to that Dynamic, it Ru Ru unafraid of the rejection.

43:04

I would say like this.

I, it is absolutely true.

I ask for help a lot.

I offer help a lot and I have no fear when I ask for help.

I think if you can, you can, if you can’t, I completely understand it.

And I my husband Jack will often say it’s like, I am it’s amazing sometimes what I dare to ask but I figured that the people will say to me when it’s not a dare, you know, nobody says it like that but Yeah, that’s more agreeable video.

43:35

Yeah, our people are so shocked that somebody would dare to ask such a thing, you know, it’s worth.

But I think the foundation of that is two different things and it’s actually quite serious.

The first thing is, I fundamentally understand that I depend on others.

43:55

I also fundamentally know that my family’s background shape me very much about that.

So I mean the short not of it is that My two parents are the sole survivors of five years in concentration camps.

They lost their entire family and boy, did they never think that they survived on their own?

44:13

So this notion of self-made, never existed for us.

You are never self-made.

You are made by the clock and the presence of everything else in the moment.

I think that’s where my notion of the both end and the multiplicity of things is so we woven into the way I look at things and I live with that.

44:31

I completely believe in a communal.

Picture and I depend on a lot of people for a lot of things for me, for my kids for my team.

For, you know, I am constantly networking before the world ever existed and so is my life, I knew share economy before the term was invented and I think that’s where the asking for help comes from but the same is true in Reverse.

44:52

You can ask me for stuff.

I don’t blink.

It’s like, of course, if I can, I will except I love to feel important.

I love to feel like I can give something, you know, and something it gives me tremendous Joy.

I think what’s so interesting about how courageous you are and asking is that Empower and empowers the people you’re now to ask because I would hope that.

45:12

Yeah, cuz I know I know that you will never be offended by a request because you think that part of a relationship is people should be able to ask anything they want of each other.

And they should also have the freedom to refuse if they think it’s not appropriate or not possible, which is, which is very helpful for those of us who struggle to ask for help.

45:30

That is true.

That is true.

I think, you know, there’s a question.

I love to ask in the workspace that I used to ask in a very different way when I used to do cross-cultural work, but it has become suddenly really relevant where you raced for autonomy, or where you raced for loyalty.

45:47

Think for a moment people, where you raised with the primary messages around relationships that said you have yourself to rely on in the end.

It’s all about you.

Nobody’s ever going to help you as well.

As you can help yourself unto logically in a way, you are alone in this world, you know, and how do you think that influences the way that you organize your relationships around you, your concepts of give and take your concept of asking, for help of who you can of what you can ask, from whom and Cetera.

46:16

Expect.

Asians and their loyalty thing is, you know, the messages really say you never alone.

This, you all a lot of things to, a lot of people.

And a lot of people are there for you.

When in my thinking, when I have a problem, the first thing I think is who can help me.

I don’t think what can I do?

46:33

I think who can help me, because there’s people who know more than me about this thing and will help me think it true.

And I in American parlance can be seen as someone who pulls because I asked her, it’s not just one or two, you know, I think Take it in.

Then I sit with it and then I make it my own but I am completely shaped through these conversations rather than sitting with myself thinking it through, trying it out and it’s a completely different model.

47:00

So I feel very clear that I’ve learned something from this discussion because when you ask the question, okay, we’re you raised to be autonomous or to be loyal.

My first impulse was to say, well, why does it have to be either/or?

Can it be both aunt and then I thought, okay.

47:15

I’ve internalized your worldview.

But in all seriousness, why does it have to be either/or?

I don’t I don’t think it’s either or but I think that when you ask let me let’s see how many of you would say that you were raised race.

That doesn’t mean you stayed this way and it doesn’t mean that you didn’t have to because there was nobody there for you, right?

47:34

It’s not always just a nice messages Story.

How many of you would say the focus was on autonomy on self-reliance.

And how many of you would say the focus was on loyalty and how many of the people here?

Here.

Who highlighted loyalty and american-born a lot.

47:52

She died at the you live in the mecca of individualism.

Here we do.

And so that notion is, I think what draws a lot of people to come here as well.

Is that for once?

I can actually prove myself, do my own thing?

It’s not a that is not an either/or.

48:09

I think this beauty and and and and and value in each of these models, but everyone has a clear sense of what We’re told growing up.

I really do think it’s a real foundational set of messages.

That shape, our relational Legacy.

48:26

There are a couple other quick things.

I wanted to raise.

One is from Susan Dominus.

So we share something very unusual to have to explain that.

I mean, basically, Susan dominance is a journalist at the New York Times and she wrote a profile about me and she wrote a profile about Adam and when we met and realize this, my first thought was we need to write a profile of Susan based on what we learned about her from her.

48:47

Oh, filing us, which is maybe two met at, but she was hoping to be here tonight.

She could not make it, but she sent in a question for us to discuss, which I thought was really interesting.

Which was what do we think about passionate work?

Is that something we should strive for?

Can you ever have too much of it?

49:02

Do I go first?

I think it’s a fascinating question actually, because passion for a long time throughout history when it came to work, was pretty much the privilege of The Artisans and the artists.

People did not talk about passion when they work the land and certainly not when they got went to the factory.

49:22

Yeah, so it really speaks to the aspirational.

Meaning that work has received never have we expected more from work.

We want from work today, what we used to get from religion and Community belonging purpose, meaning Community, you know, that’s a whole new set of expectations.

49:42

And that’s why we suddenly have the permission to talk about work.

That transports you.

Right, but the concept was that it transcends.

You it elevates you.

It takes you above the ordinary into something, bigger and things that people used to attribute to religious experiences.

49:59

And now we want that immersive, you know, all-encompassing thing in in what we do.

I don’t think of it as good or not.

Good.

I just think it’s super interesting and it’s actually a wonderful new permission that people that more people can have access to, that kind of intensity.

50:17

City in their work, what comes with that is that the other side of passion is massive.

Heartbreak disillusion.

Yeah.

Disruption.

Degradation.

I mean, you know, passion has its side effects.

And I think that today you have that to when people, you know, people people don’t just leave because the Factory closes that happens, but this is not the primary thing people leave for management reasons, relationship reasons.

50:45

They were not promoted enough seen enough.

Acknowledged and so it becomes identity questions.

You know, I think work today is this is fit is organized around an identity economy.

So that’s where I see the passion thing that that drive.

51:01

Now, where do you see the most?

My guesses.

Say, what do you do when a person comes to presenting to you?

And we’re going to change the world.

I mean, how many people come to present to you an Enterprise through many a start-up?

That’s about to change the world, you know, immediately.

51:17

Red flag for me, by the way, meet like, it’s like narcissism yellow Define, but why don’t you think of it as passion?

I mean, you could.

It’s an interesting thing.

Might also overwrite red flag, but the part of meetings, my my judgmental here.

Why don’t I let these people think, you know, but big part of it is because did you look at what the neighbor is doing?

51:37

Do you figure?

That is five others that are doing something similar.

Would you ever think about joining them or everybody needs their own little black cat, you know, I mean, That passion to me.

That’s just grandiosity, right?

You couldn’t be satisfied, just maybe changing a country or, you know, helping a billion people as opposed to over 7 billion, right?

51:57

That just seems like a ridiculous scale to Aspire to.

Where’s the limit doesn’t grandiosity is a part of passion, because when you experience passion, you experience yourself as irrepressible, right?

That is part of the experience of passion.

It’s a force that cannot be resisted.

52:13

So why do we say this is grandiose versus?

This is people who have deep passion for something.

I agree with you, but I do think that there is a bias in it too.

Yeah, there might be.

I think it depends for me in part on The Valor and distinction between what’s called harmonious versus obsessive passion.

52:30

So harmonious passion is.

You know, I love it.

I chose it.

I’m excited to pursue this work and I think for if that’s the experience of passion, you have often the work in and of itself is its own reward.

If it’s not, then the impact that you have on each individual person is Meaningful and then the hope is to scale it overtime, right, you know.

52:47

Change the world on day one.

If the passion is more obsessive.

It feels more like something you have to do as opposed to something you want to do.

And then I start to worry that we’re in a situation where where you feel like.

Well, you know, if I don’t change the world then my life has had no meaning and I think that’s a sad State of Affairs.

53:03

If you ever wanted to do something different than what you do, always that’s why I don’t have a real job.

I just study other people’s jobs.

I live vicariously through this interesting.

You know, would you say, would you say that you passionate about you work?

Yes, of course you are.

53:19

How do you how do you define kettle?

I think you are deeply engaged with you work.

You’re curious.

There’s intensity.

There’s insatiability.

There is a constant look for what else is out there?

That I don’t know yet.

I see all of that.

53:35

But that’s what I see when you think I’m passionate about work.

Will you what, how do you articulate that?

I think about it.

A few ways.

One is I think about well not every part of my work right.

There are parts of my job that I’m not passionate about.

I’ve tried to design those out of it over time, but some of them are kind of stuck.

53:53

When I think about the parts I’m passionate about, I think about waking up in the morning.

Looking forward to starting work going to bed at night thinking about all the cool ideas that I get to explore and all of the amazing talented inspiring students that I get to learn from and and maybe try to help a little bit and that for me is energizing.

54:09

And I guess it’s, I mean, it’s exciting.

And in the way that I think falling in love, is exciting.

I feel like come the age wave, we want passion.

The most at work is the age where we still have about an average of two.

Two years.

I mean, isn’t it interesting?

54:26

That the moment where we have the highest set of expectations about this thing is also the time where we are roaming and nomadic.

Yeah, I think that’s a huge problem.

Hey, how do you understand it?

Mean you have the students?

You know, I see students that they tell me.

54:41

I love it.

I’m going to take another three months and I’m going to start looking for the next thing.

I see them.

If you love it, why you want to leave?

I’d can’t put one and one together believing in the loving.

Don’t you want to stay?

When you love something?

Yeah, mile.

Magic, yeah, now I think I’ll tell you how I deal with this which is one.

54:59

I try to read the research and forecast, what’s going to happen to them.

So I think the work that young human wits and his colleagues have just published has been helpful to me.

What he’s found is that when people think about passion as pleasure or Joy, they’re much less likely to succeed in pursuing whatever they thought their passion was.

Then if they think about it as meaning and purpose, correct, and I think that’s because emotions are much more fleeting and you know, a sense of mattering as much.

55:22

More sustainable should important.

What you just I said this is I think passion that is defined as joy and excitement, and what it does for me is very different than passion that is defined by the nature of the richness of the thing in which you plunging.

Yes, you know, that is going to be giving you meaning, because it is in itself, meaningful.

55:41

Yeah.

Yeah, I that for me, that resonates and so, I guess what I say to students is when they say, I want to find a job and passionate about, or I want to love my work that to me is something you can look forward to 10, 20 years down the road.

After you’ve figured out where you find meaning and what kind of contribution you can make, but I don’t, I don’t feel like there’s there’s an easy answer to your question which is, which is a really interesting one.

56:06

Why would you leave something you love?

This is another Paradox point that would that you yourself is made, right, which is you can love a person.

And still say this relationship is not right for me.

And why not believe the same is true about a job.

Hmm.

We have said it is in marriage today.

56:23

People will say, It’s not that I divorce because I’m miserable and unhappy.

It’s I divorce because I could be happier.

And I think something similar is happening at work.

This elusive quest for more for better for formal and all of that makes us nice.

56:39

It’s think what else is out there?

That I haven’t yet.

Done that versus the good enough.

Versus the dis is rich in and of itself, stay here.

Deep in it, you know, build something from it, you know, it’s just the, for me, the moment where I read.

This was a Wall Street Journal article that said the Is that the winners and I thought, oh boy, one headline tells you what’s going on, you know, what does it mean?

57:01

And then it’s course, it explained to get a better salary, you get promoted more.

But the whole point was about, you know, leaving versus staying.

This is this is I fi don’t.

You’re the one who studies this things, right?

I don’t know how to interpret that.

No.

No, the only thing that jumped in mind on this is, I think Oliver Berkman covered the best antidote.

57:22

I’ve seen, he wrote this great little Tackle that said, look, every time you feel fomo.

You should erase it.

And instead, turn it into Jomo, the joy of missing out.

And I thought this was such a clever concept to say, you know, any time, you’re afraid you’re going to miss out on a great job opportunity or even a social event, right?

57:40

You’re only thinking about everything that could have been better.

Well, why not be thrilled about all the horrible jobs, you didn’t take all the toxic cultures, you avoided all of the difficult bosses.

You didn’t get stuck working for.

And that that Joy of missing out for me is something That probably sticks in my head on a daily basis with that.

57:58

I am feeling a little fomo that we’re not going to hear from the audience.

Let’s do.

So, let’s let’s open it up.

Thanks guys.

I think we all thought that the autonomy versus loyalty was really eye-opening and Powerful concept.

I’m just curious your comments on how you, how you see that play out in the workplace.

58:15

Great.

I am a cross-cultural psychologist.

My work was on how families and individuals deal with large cultural changes.

And this know, Notion of collective versus individualistic.

So what it really influences a lot is this, you know that person that does more than others, because they can do it better than anybody else but then quietly resents it but then doesn’t want anybody to do it because nobody would do it the way they do it.

58:46

That is raised for autonomy to the nth degree.

The, you know, that person in your personal lives, you know, that person at work, you know, so you can map this on a whole line here, you know, between the degree of, you know, I’m going to hide the fact that I don’t know something.

59:03

So, when people these days talk about, trust for vulnerability, one of the first thing they talk about is asking for help, right?

The disclosure of the leader and the people who can say, I don’t know, I want to try and ask for help, but this Asking for help in some people and In some cultures means, I don’t know and I’m going to find out who can help me.

59:21

Like I said, who can help me?

I don’t experience it as a weakness whatsoever.

I have no shame about it.

But I know that for other people, it’s an admittance of what’s wrong with me and the moment, it’s what’s wrong with you.

I can’t do it.

Then you’re asking for help is a completely different thing and you put these people to work together.

59:41

This is true in the classroom.

And this is true at work.

They are going to to have messages and meta messages.

That’s just a nutshell on.

All right, so I’ll tell me versus loyalty.

What I think about is you don’t have to give people autonomy about the ends.

59:59

If you give them autonomy about.

The means, this is something one of my mentors, Richard Hackman found throughout his career.

That if leaders were very clear about a mission, a purpose, a goal to work toward, they could give people a ton of autonomy than about when to do it, where to do it, how to do it with whom to do it and that would work out really well.

1:00:18

And I think If you take that view then giving people that kind of autonomy is an expression of loyalty, right?

You’re saying, I believe in you.

I trust you.

I’m going to let you know what our objectives are and why I think those are worthwhile and then you’ve got this.

So, next question, you touched on this very briefly earlier the difference between breach and betrayal.

1:00:42

How is that different?

I think instinctually we understand what that might mean in a relationship and that said that may vary from Um, person a person in a relationship, but how do you distinguish between the two and the workplace?

How do those look different in the workplace?

When I think about this at work?

1:00:59

I think about what’s called the psychological contract.

So all of you who have jobs you have formal contracts with your employers.

There’s also though.

What’s What’s called the psychological contract?

Which is an Unwritten set of expectations and obligations that you have with your employer.

And there are basically three types that we’ve studied.

1:01:16

So there’s there’s an economic contract.

Basically, look, I’ll do my job and you pay me to support myself and my family.

There’s a relational contract, which is much more about.

Okay, I will invest in this organization as a community or a family and I’ll bring a little bit of extra dedication and commitment to the people in the place.

1:01:36

And in return, what I expect is to be treated like a member of the family.

And then the final type of contract is more of a cause where you say, look, I will give you extraordinary levels of effort and dedication and Grit RIT and in return.

What I want to do is I want to make a difference.

Hopefully not change the world.

1:01:54

I think that contracts gets breached when somebody has a set of expectations that are not met Often by the employer or by their boss.

I think that a betrayal is when people go further and they void or violate the contract and say not only, am I unwilling to follow through on this set of commitments or expectations.

1:02:12

That was never there to begin with.

We were never a family.

You were never working on a meaningful, cause I never owed you a paycheck.

And I think that might be the difference.

I have no idea what to do with that.

But that was my thought.

It’s beautiful.

I mean, there’s it’s an element of gaslighting.

1:02:28

Basically, you know, you’re crazy.

You’re crazy for even thinking this in the first place.

Yes, how do you know whether to leave or stay and the work context, statically?

Hypothetically, what is a good reason to stay?

1:02:46

And what if, even if you stay, what is a way to think about something more in a relationship to work that is productive and meaningful and healthy, without, you know, jumping around in a disorganized way.

1:03:04

I mean, I You’re not going to be surprised.

There’s a framework on this so hirschman wrote about exit voice and loyalty.

There’s an addition now of neglect.

So when you’re dissatisfied with a job or a person or an organization or a country, right?

1:03:21

You’ve I think, as far as I know, four choices, you can leave.

That’s an exit.

You can speak up and try to change it.

That’s voice.

You can neglect.

Where you do the absolute minimum not to get fired.

That’s office space.

And then, And then the final option is loyalty, which is basically to say, look, I’m committed enough to this person or system that, you know, I’m just going to grit my teeth and bear it.

1:03:43

And I think that there’s a progression that we all need to go through when we’re considering leaving, which is to say, have I, have I been loyal long enough that I’ve given the person or the place a chance to change, and then once I’ve done that have, I tried to change it and have I made my best effort at doing that and if not, it’s probably time to go.

1:04:02

So the interesting thing about your frame.

Is that they all put the eye at the center?

What is the circumstances of this?

You know, do you have, do you decide either, you know, are you sending money over to the old country and there’s a whole family that lives of the, on your work?

1:04:18

That’s going to change.

If you, you know what it’s like, where is the locus of control in your, in those four things which I think are very beautiful.

You are the locus of control in many people’s lives.

The that is not the reality.

They are lots of other things that are affecting your Vision may be at this moment.

1:04:36

You know, I would leave.

If it was up to me.

I would leave but given the circumstances of my life.

This is not the right moment.

And I think it’s juggling that ambiguity.

That is the most difficult thing on occasion.

You know, many of us will say this, I left too soon and this I could have left sooner.

1:04:55

This is the story of our lives in relationships, in work situations, in places, where we lived in houses that we, you know, that we’re leaking.

I mean, it’s like, We have constantly and the story of Our Lives is a story of where we wished.

We had stayed longer and where we wished, we had left sooner and I don’t think that there is a specific.

1:05:16

You know, I can say I have rarely heard people leave a job and regret it but I do look at our time.

My dear, there’s one other quick thing.

I wanted to bring up before we wrap, which is we got a bunch of questions via social media.

And there’s this question.

I love from Michelle Miller, which is what do we think about work spouse?

1:05:34

Has I have to tell you what I’ve heard.

People use this term increasingly over the last few years.

And at first, I’m like, wait, are you hedging in case your marriage isn’t going?

Well, you have another spouse.

What is this about?

So I given that your study relationships and you work on relationships.

1:05:51

What in the world is a work spouse?

And do you think we should have one as a preview?

I think the answer is a very clear note, but I want to hear your take.

I’ve the same way that when people say our company is a family, I’m like seriously.

You know, a family is a family and I can tell you family of companies are different from.

1:06:09

This is not the same.

I like that.

I understand that people want to borrow terminology from other areas so that they can create analogies.

But the it’s trivial.

It is something rather vulgar and boring about the would espouse work on a sec.

It’s an, it’s an interesting way of looking at it.

1:06:26

What it says.

Is this the person with whom you spend all the time with whom you did to make all these decisions with whom you share?

So many important things.

The only thing that Interesting about the workspace concept is that it’s betrays one reality or it translates.

One reality.

Is that way too often.

1:06:42

These days.

We bring the best of ourselves to work and the leftovers home.

This is where I do think the words work spouse becomes relevant, but for the rest, no, find a word that, you know, it’s the, the there’s a lack of vocabulary for this thing.

1:06:59

You know, you’re not married to them.

Marriage is a whole lot more complicated.

Located than that, you start working with someone else.

You’re also not cheating on them friends.

It’s a.

And by the way, I don’t know if I don’t, you know, I speak a few languages and I don’t know the term in other languages.

1:07:17

It doesn’t translate in my head.

Does anybody have a translation for this French Hebrew German Spanish, anybody?

It’s an interesting thing.

It’s like, you know you work with that person.

You haven’t, you know, whatever it is that happens, you know, but it’s not your workspace.

1:07:35

This is college the laundry of that person, you know, well, this is this has been fun and enlightening as always.

Yes.

I want to say thanks to the audience and thanks to Astaire for doing this.

Thank you to all.