How's Work? with Esther Pere - The Boss, The Client, and the Hairdresser

🎁Amazon Prime 💗The Drop 📖Kindle Unlimited 🎧Audible Plus 🎵Amazon Music Unlimited 🌿iHerb 💰Binance


What you’re about to hear is an unscripted one time counseling session focused on work for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality names, employers and other identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.


I got to be honest.

I choose this job because there was really nothing for me to do.

And I just thought, if I can go to the school, it’s nine months long.

I like to look pretty, I’ll be able to Wear whatever I want but I don’t want to get close with all these random people.


It stresses me out.

When hairdressers may come armed with a pair of scissors or a blow dryer, their real talent lies in how they manage their relationship with the clients.

What they do is Way Beyond cuts and color.


In fact, the business day really in is the business of people.

I read a line by a celebrity stylist, named Nick arrows.

Oh, it said something like this as shears.

Snip perilously, close to the face as a new shape and style reveals itself.


And as one begins to feel more beautiful and uncommonly close.

Friendship emerges often.

For a lifetime and how this relationship materializes is something of a curiosity, like, a bar stool or a psychiatrist’s couch, the hairdresser’s chair prompts people to pour out their hearts.


I just I feel continually undermined.

The child has always been that place where I’ve been needed and I feel important.

A lot of the people that work for me are like an extension of my family.

There’s no doubt that you’re emotional and relational.


Dowry comes with you to work.

Imagine going to work every day, and I’m really busy place and no one will make eye contact with you.

I mean, it feels like a breakup.

It doesn’t So, how’s work?


How many years are you in the business 21 and you 14?

Get so we’re not talking about beginners here, right song experienced women and their most of my career.


I’m just trying to figure out a way to like get away from it.

She’s always trying to do a different career.


She’s like not really a hairdresser.

That’s a chosen.

I just want stability and consistency in my life.

And, you know, I mean, that’s the job.


There’s a lot of things I want to do in life, but really on paper, that’s what I can do to make money, you know, so now, yeah, I have a, I have my first full-time job and six years.

Okay, and how is it going so far?


I mean, it’s going fine, but I’ve had a lot of fear of people.

Which people my bosses and co-workers?

If I’m not like one of the things with our industry is it, that’s different than a lot of jobs.


Is its sales.


And if you’re not busy, there’s no like office to go in and shut the door and you’re just like out in a room with people.

So for me, like, when I haven’t been busy, the financial insecurity is triggered.


And then also, like, thinking I’m not good enough.

So I’ve just spent many minutes of not busy.

Sometimes they could be hours at a time.

But how many minutes before you triggered?

It’s more.

Like when I have to sit around for anything more than an hour.


I start to panic when you panic would happens.

I start thinking everyone’s against me and they don’t think that my work is good enough and that I’m actually not busy because they don’t want to give me clients.


Then I go and ruminate down everything wrong.

I’ve done in my career to be in this situation.

And then I mean because I’m in recovery 12-step.

I now I go out and I like call someone from the program and try to reset because once I start having all those thoughts about why I’m not busy and what’s going to happen in my life and everything’s going to fall to pieces.


I’ll if I’m not like using the tools of recovery and like cognitive behavioral tools.

I will start trying to control the situation.

And it has never worked in my favor.

It’s manipulation as well.


Lots of manipulation as in trying to endear yourself that and trying to get on the managers.

Favorite least favorite list.

That’s all we’re doing.

Yeah, and try to like get them to give me more people or even to throw other people under the bus, so I’ll get more people.


So when I, when if I hear you, when you get in a panic.

In the past, you try to get other people to get you out of the panic.



Primarily by endearing yourself and telling them how Bizzle you feel?


And please help me and make me feel better at any cost.

And today you’re able to tackle your own negative self-talk, reach out, but not as save me but as help me help myself.



Yeah, I basically I mean I’m I’m feeling good about it that I’ve used those tools, but I wish I didn’t have to deal with the feelings of all this.

It’s like, very painful for me and they lie.

Sometimes last week, it was like every day.


Like, starting around.

I think it was like, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.

And then the Friday, it was so bad.

I felt like I was gonna have a panic attack because ultimately, she one of the people you reach out.

Yeah, she’s one of my biggest been, one of the most supportive people in my life, you know ever and she knows like what I’m talking about.


So there’s that, you know as I listen to her talk about how insecure she feels how if she’s not instantly busy.

It becomes a marker of her self-worth about her anxiety and her Panic about her sense that she’s being judged and evaluated on a Instant basis and how she evaluates herself on a constant basis.


From there to asking about her family is just a millimeter away.

What’s the echo chamber between your family, history and your fears at work?


I think that our relationship with our siblings?


Is also a predecessor to our relationship with our co-workers.

Well, yeah, cause like, my brother got all the attention compared to me, my parents.

He just had more in common with them.

So, yeah, I think what I realized that my job about a weekend, is that no matter where I go.


I’m always trying to make sure that I am going to get taken care of.

And I think that someone else is going to get more.

Like security than me because my brother did.

It’s a new awareness.

Like they would just ignore me while I played with my toys, but then they would be like doing t-ball and all that stuff with him.


And they always would be like, why can’t you just be more like your brother?

He knows when to shut his mouth.

I mean, my mom told me ever since you were born.

You were a problem.

You came out screaming and crying and you drove me crazy.

And your brother was an angel.


When an amazing welcoming ceremony, so I’ve been hearing that like my whole life.

I mean, I’m being facetious but this is you’re saying it with half a smile, but I the third youth to it, so I think at work, like if I see someone else get another appointment than me.


I’m like, of course.

Nobody fucking cares about me.

And they’re only going to care about this person sometimes.

We get our most powerful resources.

From our family as well.


Even from painful experiences in our families.

She’s immediately honest and she’s able to connect the dots and she sees that she has been competing with her brother all along.

And now she’s competing with her co-workers and that there’s an eerie resemblance between the relationship.


We have sometimes with our siblings, and with our co-workers anywhere.

She goes, she immediately makes sure that she’s being noticed, but the strategies that we develop in our childhood, in order to adapt and to survive, sometimes become worn out.

And so, what I’m also noticing is that she’s constantly living as if she’s in survival mode, even when there is really no need for it.


And it is probably one of the most important tasks.

When we become adults, is to realize, which one of our adaptation skills is still important and useful and which ones have actually become very counterproductive.

And so, I want to bring both of them into this conversation.


Now, what are some of the resources that they have?

They wouldn’t be successful.

Otherwise, there is something From their experience as a child that they use in the way that they connect with their clients. what would you see as some of the significant resources that you draw at, I’m going to make it more specific, even to significant resources that you bring to work and that, you know, find their roots and your family history.


Just that the kind of the tenacity like the stick-to-itiveness.

I I think both my, you know, it’s funny.

I don’t often think of the things they’ve done.

You never think of it in a positive term just because you think of the Legacy in the way that it hurt you it but it’s more complex than that.


It’s a fracked, you know, and the strengths that you have come off and from the same place.

Is as the troubles that you have.

Yeah, you know what while you guys were talking?

I thought you know, my father as it did so beautifully, any thoughts about a lot of things?


At the same time.

I saw.

Yeah, thank you.

I think my, you know, grow that as a child, my father didn’t pay a lot of attention to me, because he was working so much.

And then, when he would come home, he loved to go into the basement.


He was a Grateful Dead.

He loved his music.

Okthat’s like where he went.

So his presence wasn’t that they’re in my life.

Whereas my mother was like kind of all over me in a lot of ways, but I remember when I just started in our industry and I was 21 and I got this celebrity hair, salon job as an assistant and I remember coming home with like a pile of tips, like in the envelopes and like dumping them on a kitchen table and like heal.


Lit up like it was like he’s paying attention to me.

Something about me actually ignited his attention, which I was not used to and your experience of it was.

I mean, I just wanted more of that which I think has, you know contributed to the drive I have but my drive has been also like a detriment at times.


Does it creates, do you feel that you are continuously in the competitive environment or that there is also solidarity.

I think the place I’m at now is the best of the places I’ve been.

And it’s interesting because it’s it’s almost like the top level of talent that I’ve worked with.


I think a lot of that has to do with me because a lot of it is in my own mind, like a lot of it is me.

I’m the one setting, the competition.

You know when you get on coming to work, everybody’s looking at everybody’s like schedules to see how many clients you have.


It’s just like, it’s just a thing that you do and if I have a lot of clients, my worth is up here.

And if I don’t have a lot of clients that day, I go into the toilet.

And so what kind of job do to make the to alleviate that?

When you say it’s the best place I’ve been at what I mean.


I think the owner of the place I work sets the tone too, so She’s super successful, you know, a faint very celebrated hair colors, but she’s humble.

And so the younger generation.


They’re kind of models, her like, after her.

So there just isn’t a whole lot of ego.

Whereas, when I came into the business in the 90s.

I mean, it was so full of ego and everybody’s, you know, is very Cutthroat.


So I think a lot of it has to It’s still the leader.

Like I think that sets the tone and then the other really positive thing is that people ask for help at this place, which I’ve never seen in any other place.


Like if I had a question about hair color, you would just never like whereas here it’s more of a team effort.

And so you have like, you know, I mean I know for me I want to know what the kids are doing because That’s that’s what keeps it fresh and alive.


Does that change your inner state or is your inner State active on its own, our respective of the environment, in which you’re in, I think, I think now my inner state.


Has improved enough to wear a matching my environment.

I feel like a lot of the time to places.

I worked were reflection of my interstate.

So some of the worst times in my life.

It was like I would inevitably be working for somebody who would abuse me to the extent that I was abusive or critical of myself.


And and then I worked in other things to me.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I guess I would say again like when when I was in like the throes of my addiction and you know eating disorder like very self-destructive.


My first job was assisting this color as to would just like shame and humiliate me and criticize me.

And, you know, nothing was good enough and you’ll never be a colorist and you know, women will never be a successful day.


She’s like every, you know, every Harsh and mean thing that you could say, you know, she body shame shame, my outfits like everything, like he would just Tear Me To Pieces, but looking back, that was really a match to what was going on with me.


Like, that’s definitely was my own inner dialogue.

He would say, all the things I already believed to be true about myself.

It was just, you know, reflected in his treatment of seeing the pin, was she cooks, right?

I just don’t like she’s lacerating.


Yeah, well, I am just so sick of like that like attraction like I just because right now I’m working so hard on like really having high self worth and I think yeah and I think it’s like the best it’s been but I’m just like so afraid.


I get like really afraid with the law of attraction stuff that if I think like something you know- that It’s going to like happen on the outside, you know, but I guess like, I don’t want like, you know, bad stuff to happen because I’m feeling that on the inside.


Does that make sense?

Yeah, but it’s didn’t make a lot less week.

I think that’s crazy.

Well you practicing your practicing that if you have a week where they have less income that doesn’t necessarily translate instantly into A lesser person, because that’s what it is.


For me a lot.

It’s like, if I’ve got money, like coming in.

We stopped you on sick.

Uh-huh, because I just noticed something here.

You were talking and you were reacting to it.

She was saying.

So I just wanted you to voice it, then you begin talking about you again, and you used to that.


And so what to having someone take over and say you think you have it bad?

Let me tell you how.

And you just Retreat.

Are you are?

Yeah, I didn’t I didn’t notice.

But now you do.

I mean I get a it’s hard because I have like a mentoring type of relationship with us, but I’m going to Something Different.


Yeah, because She literally took it back and took it over to her and you received it.

Is it familiar to you?


I mean, I would I would say so actually in the workplace I could see where that type of thing happens.

And it makes me think of like that this bigger that this this hindrance that in my career I’ve had with like being seen or being visible in spite of having a lot of like talent and skill at what I do where I grew up.



When I got a tension and I did, when I was like a teenager, people started to notice me and I, you know, I actually was like, was physically attacked for that for like the things that were positive about me even though it’s a little different than what we’re talking about.


But but it’s just something where I will Shut it down, dim down.

And what about home?

For sets you up for this proceeding?

That was you recede.

See, you do two things at the same time, right?


On the one hand you receipt then.

On the other hand you watch to see who gets more.


That’s true.

That’s definitely true who at home?

I think probably like my father.


I would like recede more because I was afraid of him his disapproval, because I got so little from him to begin with.

So, I think anymore.

Disapproval from him or any sense of disappointing him.


I think I would, you know, I would that would give me down to think that it changes the way you work with a female boss or a Milpas.

Yeah, I mean, that’s an it.

Definitely an interesting question.

This is actually part of the theme and why this is all very interesting to me, like, with authority figures how I do turn them into parents.


So yeah, I mean with men sometimes I feel like it’s like a sexualized piece where I turn myself into an object.

And then I feel like with sometimes male bosses.

I feel like I have to kind of use that anger even though I don’t do anything.


I just feel like I put that foot forward a little explain to me food.

Can mean a lot of Tears, a lot of waste being Coy or even acting child like sometimes like if I need to get my needs met, I can be like Like a little girl, and then they think I’m cute and then they, you know, and it’s not.


Yeah, it’s kind of a newer object uses.

A cute little girl.

And yours is the Damsel in Distress.

A hundred percent.


I always have to be like needing help.

Very early into this conversation.


It becomes clear to me that these are two seasoned professional hair.

Stylist, women, who while they talk about their fears, their insecurities, and their challenges with their sense of self-worth.


They are also talking about their competitiveness, their singular mindedness.

And the way that they each try, the age-old seduction tactics that women have Engaged with forever, when seeking power recognition, affirmation and attention.


So, these strategies are primarily with men buses.

The needing the help.

I only do that with guys and of course she would.

Yeah, they’ll girl Daddy help me.

Yeah, or just like, you know, just using look like appearance to get approval or attention engine and we’d women buses.


What’s the strategy avoid I’ve ever had like a void, like, Teenager, I’ve had that one a couple of jobs because ultimately, I’m afraid of authority figures, you know, I feel like threatened, even when there is no threat.


I sense a threat.

So, like rejection abandonment or He like humiliation or just being shamed.


Because I think with my at least, particularly with my mother.

And I actually know you can relate to this, like having somebody who really gives you a lot of like adoration and oh, you’re so amazing and you’re this and you’re that and then like it’s switches and then it’s like you’re a piece of shit and you’re a fucking, you know, failure and how come you’re not as good as this one.


And how come this one gets a hundred and you didn’t get out and you got a 95.

Like, so and I feel like I’ve had employers like that, you know, you Over not not anymore because I think I’ve done enough.


Interior work on myself that I just did.

I don’t, that’s not my experience anymore.

But for years, that was my experience with like bosses saying, even very similar things that my own mother would say Andy growing up was about finding different bosses or putting limits.


Oh, I always found a new boss.

If you learn to put limits, I’m learning.

It’s a yeah.

Great question.

I, it’s yeah, it’s been really hard because I’ll I’ve instead more like how do I exit the situation, or a door?


I just get.

So, Outraged about the situation similar to how I felt with my mother that yeah.

I just leave the hood like reached his what the what the voice of the outrage.



Fuck you for not valuing me for not seeing me for not supporting me.

And now, you know, now you have to deal with the consequences of that like of my leaving.


But with a client, how do you do it?

Because I assume sometimes you have client.

We haven’t talked about it.

It’s totally different with a client.

Who do you become with the client?

So basically you’re telling me there is me with the bus me with the co-workers and me with the flying.


Yeah, and it’s all very different and the with the client.

I’m like the over Giver the I mean people pleaser Beyond like and I’m going to job that it kind of is about pleasing.

People don’t understand but over nurturing like over just over giving.


What is Out of fear of like abandonment or rejection and humiliation again, but still you give what you resent the fact that you’ve given so much power to them.

You enjoy the giving or you feel like I’m giving just as a deterrent strategy, I think if I do.


So, I don’t have to feel afraid that.

Yeah, I think that’s what it is.


It’s like it’s definitely very fear-based that I’ll lose them.

And you know, even though it’s not Aureus that people are loyal to their stylist, their colorist.


Yeah old and many.

Many other businesses.



I know.

And I have I have so many clients for like a lifetime.


A lifetime, but I can’t see that.

Like, I’ll focus on the one at at end.


That wasn’t happy that day.

I’ll obsess and I’ll ruminate and like, there was an experience, I had seven.

Is ago where I had made a move and moved this.

I move salons and and I had like five of my clients.


Reacted really strongly, like I hate it here.

What are you?

Why did you come here?

Like such a, you know, so, like strong and these were like, the clients were like my mom’s age, who were like, my, who are like they were, like Mom’s to meet, you know, or I made them that way.


Like I just never expected that switch and I went into such like a panic, like that was so disproportionate to the situation.

What is the trauma Legacy of this?


I mean, I just think with my mostly with my mother like emotionally and psychologically, you know, she was not she was very Unstable that way.

And like she would be very loving one moment.

And then another just be totally like, cutting me down and hysteria and panic.


She was very like, you know, undisciplined emotionally.

So seeing somebody in that state, just brings up such a sense of fear, but also a responsibility that it’s my fault, but that it’s also my job to fix it.


And I definitely have brought that into my work with clients.

We’re like their emotional upset, suddenly becomes my responsibility and it’s too big for me and I never like it’s like walking on eggshells, like my good right now or am I not good right now?


And this and I’m never really sure that what I do is going to change their mood, right?

Even though I have two, but there Wood has just switched.

Yeah, and flipped irrespective of what I do.


Yes, you know where I live?

Coworkers are like who cares that bitch is crazy, who cares?

And I’m like, no sleep for a weekend total Obsession.

And if you learned the tools if you learn some tools, yeah to regulate yourself, to literally to deal, first of all, with the body.


Because yeah, your body is holding it.

All right?


So many yeah.

Like a lot of breathing I and you can do it in the moment.

I can now do it in the moment.

It’s a relatively new that I can regulate myself, you know, some art.


I still have room to grow there, but I don’t go I don’t go that low anymore.

So, you know, you do sleep during the weekend now, I sleep.

I do not lose sleep over.

A client for the most, yeah, for the most part there.


And actually, there was a client who wasn’t really because of something I did, but I referred her to get a haircut because I do color and I referred her to get a haircut and she wasn’t happy with the cut and she like freaked out, like put her hands on me.


She’s like, I thought you’d said it was going to be here, meaning like collar, but she like touched me and it like, really I froze which is like the first response and then I had like, I had like a couple of bad days, but then I bounce back, whereas I think something like that in the past also because she did it in front of people that scenario of being publicly humiliated would have, you know, but there was a Something more solid and me where I realized that like, oh, this has nothing to do with me.


Like I just needed to kill any of it on beautiful.

So that was definitely a success.

That’s when, you know, yeah, things are changing their changing.


See a breathing meditating yoga.

Just I try to do a bunch of things like that.


To you know, certainly repeal you did more than that.

Your you simply also said, this is not home.

I’m not a child with Mom.

This is a client who is not happy with her cut and I am not responsible.


I can’t care.

But I am not responsible.


I mean, you just stayed in the here and now it’s more dead when you triggered.

You’re not just remembering you re living, right?

Yeah, yeah, I know.


I was definitely once you’ve been my body and nice, you a not, when you froze, you are we living.

Yeah, but once you were able to breed yourself out of it, you were in the here and now you were not write the 8 year olds, right?


How old is she who the the girl the girl the girl that freezes?

I think like yeah, I was thinking of her around like In 10 and 12 because that’s when I first started. displaying like OCD behave like control, you know, just behaviors to control my Sense of chaos.


A child that grows up with a parent who goes back and forth between loving and aggressive and violent between hugging.

And slapping is a child.

Who as she describes becomes sometimes intensely responsible for thinking that they created the interstate of the other parent or that it’s their responsibility to change their mood and they experience a sense of dread about it and a Deeper sense of responsibility for it.


She experiences that with her clients, as we discuss the need to establish a boundary, to put a limit.

The limit is not in sync to the other person.

Don’t talk to me this way.

The limit is also to understand where the other one stops, and where she starts so that she can be kind of respectful or firm or decisive without feeling that the life of the other is her own.


Basically, the inner life of the other is her own, and she’s doing that by learning all kinds of Strategies for self-regulation, through breathing through yoga through meditation, but these strategies give her the space that is needed to.

Then establish the boundary that is really the determining Factor.


The boundary that says this is where I stopped and this is where you start.

And therefore if you did the were upset about your haircut, that doesn’t make me stay awake for the whole week.

I’m most of your clients women.

Yes, and do you ever see a kind of an irony that you went into a place?


Finish the sentence?

Well, yes.

Oh, gosh, with so many.

It’s a practice.

That is the continuation of your childhood.

Yeah, right.

Pleasing women are using or sometimes emotionally.


You know.

Not yeah, just erratic I guess but you don’t just please them.

They also let you get close to them because you’re one of the few professions that people can still touch someone.

Oh, yeah, and not have to fear instant repercussions.



So you get to have a closeness, physical closeness, you get to touch, you get to put your hand in their hair, which is one of the most early experiences any baby ever had.

Universally, you get to wash their hair, which is one of our most primary experiences.


So it’s, it’s very intimate.

It’s very physical.

It’s very proximate.

So you get to come close to the women.

You’re not just busy pleasing them.

You also get to have a closeness.

You never had.


Yeah, and that’s the part.

I do love.

That’s the part.


I hate too much responsibility.


Meaning, I don’t know.


Like when you were saying all that stuff to her.

I just I don’t like touching these people really and dealing with all their bullshit.

If they’re nice, then it’s like a lot better, you know, and they mostly are.


But I just I got to be honest.

Like, I chose this job because I was like, really out of control, and I was so young and I just, there was really nothing for me to do.


And I just thought, if I can go to the Cool, it’s nine months long.

I like to look pretty.

I’ll be able to wear whatever I want it was, you know, but yeah, like it’s so stressful for me dealing with these people.

Just hearing you talk about that.


I was like, oh my God, I don’t want to go to work after this like, you know, I’m so serious.

Like and then the guys since I cut hair like I deal with the men, you know, I like having relationships with people.


But I don’t like like multiple hours of my day.

I’m like on the Judgment block at something like this.

I’m just taking orders from people all day.

I don’t want this piece like this, like move it right here.

Like it’s so I get like Angry even thinking about it.


Like I used to want to be famous career, all that stuff.

And now it’s like I just want to like meet the right guy and get a cute dog and maybe move out of the city.

You know, but I guess like, I don’t trust that it will happen or something like it.


Can I say something?

Yeah, like I think more than something like because I know you well, I know it’s like a defense and and that I see that that’s the stories that well I don’t really like hate these clients anyway, and I don’t really want to do this anyway, you know, as a way to like avoid Can someone not like something without it?



You’re not good enough?

I’m just afraid of getting like, fire.

While you’re afraid of being homeless.

Yeah, I just fight you afraid of being destitute.

You’re afraid of remaining nothing.

It’s a complete descent.

It’s not just I got a client and they didn’t like the cup.


It’s like so it becomes their day like the cut and I’m not good enough and I’m not good enough and I’m going to be fired and I’m going to be fired.

I am going to prepare any less and I’m going to be penniless and I’m going to be homeless.

Yeah, and the only defense against it is to say I’m like these people because if I don’t like him then I diminish the power that they have over their ability to destroy me.


And in an interesting way.

It’s like you’re not in relationship with them.

It’s everything that they can do to you.

It’s not a mutual relationship.

You actually rarely think about them.

You only think about what they do to your sense of self, how they can Elevate you a crush, you and how you resent the power that they have over you, which of course you hand them in all in their home, in your head, but there is very little.


There’s no other person when you talk about them.

They’re not real people.

They’re all standings for your family, but they’re not real people, you know, make it stop please.

I have no sense of these people as human beings who they are.


What they had this morning why they came to get a haircut because they just lost somebody or because they just got fired or because they just realized that their partner had been cheating on them on, because, whatever, there’s no sense that is other people have an inner life.

The only one with an inner life is They like standings of trigger points.


They like a q pressures, but in the negative sense, but how, how are you?

I’m so afraid of something bad happening to me.

Like, I am what I’m suggesting to you.

Is that you will you may be less afraid if you actually made these people more three-dimensional.


If you began to see them as people with an inner life, with a psychology with a complexity with circumstances with a story.

Otherwise, they are just triggers for your story.

If you humanize them, they would shrink to size.


They wouldn’t all be this ominous demonic powers.

Imagine you go today.

And when somebody sits down and their new you approach them with curiosity.

I come to you.


I’ve never met.

I’ve no idea where you are, doesn’t matter.

And I just say somebody recommended because that’s probably how I got to you.

I’m no less scared and you are, but when you meet me, you think only, you are scared.

You don’t have a clue that I may be worried that I’m nervous or that.


I once had a bad experience or that I have so much hope because I don’t feel good about me that you would make me feel better about me because you’re going to Defy me.

I mean, I to come with the whole story to you.

And, and you say, we are new to each other.


What’s it like for you, when you meet a new hairdresser of stylist?

You asked that question to the person that’s a curiosity question.

What have been?

Some of the cuts you’ve really liked.

Do you want to guide me?


Do you want me to, you know, dear any idea of what you want, you know, in a way the two-minute conversation between what do you want?

Do you know?

Can you express what you want?

Can you articulate it?

It is one of the most beautiful rituals of consent.


In two minutes, we are establishing an entire contract between strangers at that moment.

Where it really goes wrong for me is like I just I think that people like aren’t going to like it and I suggesting something to listen to me carefully because you’re talking about you and I am trying to move the needle over to them.


To really be curious about them, not to project on them.

They don’t exist in real terms.

These people, they just exist as figments of your frightening, imagination.

I want you to be actually curious.


About the person sitting and giving the herself over to your magical hands.

And I want you to think about that person.

Not about what she’s going to do to you.

If she’s going to affirm you or destroy you.

But about who she or he is at the level that is necessary.


It’s curiosity that we ground you in reality.

Can you?

Imagine this.

Yes, take a deep breath.

I feel taken so much anxiety from thinking about all.


This sounds like a headache and stay with the breath for a moment.


Just stay with the breath.

I don’t talk.


Don’t talk.

I just said a lot that to take in.

And sometimes the minute you put your hands in their hair.


They start talking, they confide in you.

You know, I always think it’s either this couch the Barstool the hairstyle is chair.

That’s where the stories get told.

But what about the people that just like aren’t nice?


Like can we kiss their?

There’s a lot of them and they sit down and the first thing they say is, how long is this going to take?

Because I need to leave in like 25 minutes and it’s already something that would be ridiculous to think that it would take that long because it would be longer 45.


And then as soon as you start working, they tell you, they don’t like that.

And then they say, where did you work before this?

And they literally want to make you feel bad.

It’s not everyday necessarily but you know, it’s helped me to see that when there is a difficult client.


It’s not a unique experience, personal to me, that it happens to everybody.

So I including like my boss who again is like a, you know, world-renowned, you know, person and Industry.


Re and to see that she has unhappy clients to.

And this one has a redo two and this one has that, you know, and it doesn’t break them and it just takes it off of me as like oh this thing that’s happening to me because I suck because I’m not good enough and all this pressure and beautiful.


You know that has helped me navigate a difficult client because inevitably everybody has one.

And that beautiful useful.

Yeah, it’s useful and I mean, I know, logically and from experience the more calm you are and just like easygoing.


Then you kind of can like, diffuse it, you know, if you’re defensive, it just makes it worse.


Do we talked about clients and you went directly to the but what about the mean ones?


They’re not the majority.

De TI.

No, but that the what they’re the ones you want to hold in.

Oh, I’m just I’m happy to help you with that, by the way, but it’s, it’s like part of what will change your experience of the world is that you resist going to those as the first ones.


And as the only ones that matter like the one in ten that you just spoke about before, right, you know.

Can you imagine that the one that sits in the chair and says, I only have 20 minutes isn’t only being mean, but may have may be in the midst of a big problem themselves and curiosity would say you having a tough day.



That’s when I was able to make that switch off of myself and onto them, it totally alleviated.

A lot of that pressure, I go, you know.

Oh, where you going?

You have to be what time you have to be out?

Like when they’re all like that.


I gotta get out of here.

Oh, what do you have going on?

Just lighten it?

I just try to lighten it realizing that they’re anxious.

How can I alleviate their anxiety?

This way?

It’s about them and not me.

Mmm, that’s good.


Well said very well said yeah, it helps definitely Esther perel as a best-selling author speaker and host of the podcast.


Where should we begin to learn more about Esther perel swirled to sign up for her.

His letter or to apply to be on the podcast, go to Esther /.

How’s work?

How’s work is produced by magnificent noise for gimlet and Esther perel Productions.


Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, evil.

Watch over Destry Sibley.

Alex Lewis.

Kristen Mueller and are coordinating producer is Lindsay rutowski.

Our recording engineer is Anna Rico.


And Damon.


Whittemore is our mix engineer.

The theme song was written by Doug, slavin and the executive producers of how’s work.

Our Esther perel and Jesse Baker.

We would also like to thank nazanin rafsanjani, Matt Lieber, Darien Le Beach Courtney.


Hamilton Kelly Roos, Nick, oxen horn, doctor, guy, winch, Paul Schneider, Thomas, Curry, Shawnee, abiram, and Jax.