0:01

How’s work is an unscripted one time counseling session focused on work?

For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality names, employers and other identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices, and their stories are real.

0:28

Do you want to call each other by your names?

Or do you want to keep that Anonymous and say you and she, and let’s try with you and she something.

Yeah, did you have aliases?

I had one because I join new agencies and like, okay.

0:44

Now you need to have a new name because you were already in Paris and they know you by your first name and we want to Rebrand you.

So they called me fee.

It’s a nickname not many people use.

Okay, see.

And you I don’t really have any.

I don’t invent one.

1:02

I mean when you model your so many other people anyway, pick one after Jane.

No, I mean I’ll be easy and something.

That’s not too noticeable.

Yeah, Jane.

Okay, Jane and fee.

1:26

They were teenagers discovered thrown into a profession that took them Way Beyond their years.

They didn’t choose.

They were chosen once chosen.

They had to prove their devotion.

And this devotion is right at the center of our conversation, as they are talking about wanting to Leave the profession leaving.

1:53

The fields is very, very difficult when you have sacrificed years to make it.

So many people come to me to talk about how to leave a partner.

2:13

You are coming both of you, to talk to me about how to leave a profession.

Yes.

With whom will you have had a tumultuous relationship such a tumultuous relationship, right since adolescence.

So this is a long-term relationship.

So that’s an interesting thing.

2:29

We came to discuss with you how we can leave our modeling careers and why it has been so difficult for Us to do so with that summarize it I think so.

Yes for me it would and take the good things and let’s not take the bad with us.

2:49

He’s leaving never modeling again, or is leaving changing your relationship to modeling.

I think it’s a second for me.

Yeah, I would like to know how to do the leafing if I want to because I feel like now I don’t what’s the hook?

3:09

For you, I don’t know.

I’ve been trying to find this out and I don’t what I’ve come to think.

I said, it’s maybe that I never managed to do the industry on my terms.

So I feel like every time I came back with new tools, like a new education, or like new ideas, and I was like, okay, I’m going to do it my way.

3:26

I’m going to manage my career.

I’m going to talk about where I want to go and I had all these ideas of how my career would be.

But every time I would be going back into the mode of a chess piece where I was being put out.

Really Globe wherever they needed me or wanted me but it was never.

3:43

I never felt like an actor in the process or like for some reason, having kids is the only way where agents give you the agency to manage your agenda, which is funny.

So this is the legitimate way for a woman.

To stop being a model, is to say, I am now on my way to becoming a mother.

4:04

Yeah, or two, at least a modeling is not my main priority right now.

I always feel like it has to be all in or nothing.

Hmm.

How about for you?

Yeah, I second that.

It’s interesting.

I mean, I never thought about that, but for me, it’s not that transitioning into motherhood myself.

4:23

Why is it still difficult for me to quit modeling and it’s this fake.

Promise of the next big job is just around the corner or one more job.

One more easy job.

You know, how nice would it be?

If I would be able to work as a model?

4:40

Once a month with only all the pros and none of the cons of, you know, having to be in shape, making sure your skin looks good, making sure your hair looks good.

And then if a job comes, you know, you always need to be available.

And for the agencies is, like modeling first.

4:58

How do they indoctrinate you with that?

There’s a thousand other girls who would be clamoring to do this job.

If you don’t really want it more than anything.

I think, definitely what you said.

5:14

So first day that there’s this constant is lurking idea of there.

So many women and girls who would want to be in my position, or would want to be in your position.

So how dare you say no to something now.

Secondly, I also think there’s a big culture of creating the idea that girls who say no to these things are difficult.

5:36

And once your difficult and placing that box of difficult, they would just won’t put you forward to work anymore.

I’ve had it so often that Booker’s would say to me.

Oh, she’s just always asking about her schedule.

She’s always canceling on things.

She’s so difficult to work with What I noticed after all of those years of modeling that knowing that I could set my own boundaries, especially with you.

6:02

You don’t always have a place where you can change privately.

I never knew how that influenced me.

That it was so difficult for me to feel my own boundaries within that and that it was also.

Okay, not to feel okay with it that I could ask for a changing room or a private area, where, not everyone on, said could see you too, you Comment of yeah, let’s not be difficult with changing another.

6:27

It’s my body and I don’t apparently don’t get to have any agency.

I’m hearing two things anything that you ask for that has to do with boundaries or my body still is mine just about anything.

6:47

That would say I am not submitted to my industry.

Runs the bias of being considered not committed enough and difficult.

Difficult is often a euphemism for that other word.

7:09

That starts with a be difficult means, you’re not obedient.

You must not really appreciate the opportunity.

That is given to you, other people would just be so appreciative.

And so thankful.

You are making demands who gives you that, right?

7:31

But when you are a teenager who on the one hand is still in an obedient position, and you are also trying to claim your agency.

As a young model, that becomes very complicated.

I also beauteous is luck.

7:55

I mean, I can’t I can’t change the way my face looks well.

You can’t but you do tell me about that.

It’s like the thing that I’m building, this whole life upon is something that I had nothing to do with it.

8:13

I mean I do in the way that I control it, that I try to improve on it and keep my weight down and all of that but the raw material of it was just handed down.

By the heavens and by Nature, it’s such an interesting Dynamic of wanting to have control over something.

8:30

That is uncontrollable.

Mmm.

It always needs to be perfect.

You always need to have perfect skin.

Perfect hair.

Perfect body, while especially as a woman, sometimes your body changes within the month.

I go constantly judged by everything and that there was very difficult for me.

8:50

Yeah.

Do you think that the obsession with weight is one of the counter forces to that?

It’s like the one thing supposedly you that you can control or I never managed, so I don’t know.

9:09

Not for me, you never managed or would you also say you never really wanted to?

Is there, is there a part of you that wished you could have or is there a part of you that says my healthy side is the one that actually didn’t submit to District onion sizes that they were wanting for me.

9:31

For me, definitely my healthy side when I was 16 or 17.

I was got into a period where because of stress.

I lost weight and I was so curious.

Okay.

Do I lose more weight?

I can I lose more and I would have, I think it was only a week where I would only have dinner and then at one point, I was so dizzy.

9:54

During the date of that.

Okay.

This isn’t healthy.

This is not what I want later.

I basically tried every diet, every workout, everything.

They advise me to do to reach those sizes, but never an unhealthy way.

What about you Jin?

10:12

No, definitely.

It was an eternal struggle because I had Fortune of always being tall and slim.

So I used to defend like no, I don’t have to lose weight for this job and then at some point, I did have to but I never really went that far because there was always a side of me saying like this is not the way body should look and More in in an eternal struggle with the measurements that there were put on me.

10:39

I never had like an eating disorder, but I was definitely like a lot of My daily thinking was around meals and food and making sure that I could eat healthy.

Eat the kind of food that I had to eat to maintain my body in social situations and stuff like that.

10:59

And you get what I notice is, it’s not an eating sort of, but distorted, eating behavior, and distorted body image.

I mean, at one point I was wearing size extra small, still thinking I was fat.

Mmm.

Yeah.

I remember this moment of coming back from being in studies and did ask me to come to a show in London.

11:17

London.

So, I came and I was looking around coming from this vision of seeing, you know, student bodies, which are maybe not the healthiest.

But, and then seeing how thin people were around me?

And I was like, shocked as like, I people see me like this to, like, I belong to this this group and I used to find this normal bodies, you know, if I go back to the original question about, how do we say goodbye, or how do we change our relationship?

11:47

Nation ship to modeling.

I was thinking what happens for you internally that keeps you from leaving this industry.

And is this something that is more akin to you?

Or do you think that there is something about this profession that makes it hard to leave?

12:06

I think fear and it touched upon this thing of how there’s always this feeling of, maybe it’s a an internalized idea of it’s an easy job and I can win the lottery again and make money in an easy way.

So there’s always the idea of like I might get that one job that I’ve always wanted.

12:26

I think for me, it’s all so I started doing this when I was 15 and for the most part of my life, I’ve been resisting the identity of a model or To be a model meant to be dumb and just be pretty.

So I always felt really defensive against the label of model.

12:47

Mmm-hmm.

You were just presenting it as I’m doing this for a short other side.

Yeah.

I’m not side is something that doesn’t Define me, but then As I Grew Older, I think you realize that, you know, what you do.

Does Define you to degree and maybe letting go of that and just becoming like Jane is scary.

13:14

How do you identify in a positive way?

With a profession that is at once revered and degraded?

If you are a Pianist you can fully identify as a Pianist positively internally as well as externally.

13:36

Value it Society values it.

But when you are a modern society idealizes you and devalues you both at the same time, put you on the front of the magazine.

And at the same time, says pretty and dumb and therefore, she diminishes the importance of this career, for her.

14:00

Which on the one hand.

She’s deeply attached to in a complicated way, but on the other end, she keeps saying I’m just doing this for a while.

That isn’t all of what I am.

I’m not gonna do this forever because I have other aspirations that are more serious, more Hefty, more grounded, and this whole conversation surrounds the multiple experiences of ambivalence about their profession leaving.

14:27

It staying in it and the other choices that they’re making instead of it.

How about you?

It’s a it’s like an addictive relationship.

14:45

You have a high highs and low lows.

The highs are the travel the living in New York, making easy money going to this beautiful places makes it so difficult to to quit.

And that was the other thing I was thinking about, That is after all of the times.

15:05

I called my parents crying after they measured me at the agency and it was still not good enough.

They always said keep on going, keep on going.

You can do this and I would just go for it.

So I was thinking maybe that was like, giving up.

15:22

You don’t quit.

Yes.

Okay.

So it’s that value of we don’t quit.

Yes.

And what happens if you say I want a change, they would support that as well.

Okay, and would you support it?

15:41

I want to because inside of you, you think somewhere I am quitting.

Do you think going to study psychology is choosing something you care less about?

So that if you’re not as good at it and you won’t have to be so crushed like you said.

15:57

Oh, one more time you see?

When you have a passion.

It could be art, it could be modeling.

You know, you are so identified with what you do that, if a job doesn’t go, well, it’s not the job.

16:16

That didn’t go.

Well.

It’s something that’s missing with you.

If you choose something with which you are slightly less identified, it’s sometimes the difference between a profession and a vocation.

Then we few things don’t go so, well, you don’t feel like it’s such an intimate statement about you.

16:37

Yeah, but that’s a difficult with this word because like it’s the way you look and it’s your body.

So it’s so incredibly personal that if you don’t make it.

It’s it’s my fault.

That’s right.

I haven’t been good enough.

16:52

So the question is, when you go to study psychology.

Or anything else.

Do you feel like you chose and it kind of an easy way out.

It’s the other story.

You always had like oh if this doesn’t work out, I’ll just go back at home and study.

17:12

But in your mind if I was truly successful at modeling, I would not be studying psychology.

Yes, right.

So this is fraught.

And it’s not the psychology.

It’s what you choose to study the fact that you chose to study in.

17:28

Your mind is predicated on things, don’t go.

Well I have something to fall back.

On to and so this new career becomes my Hiding Place.

Yes, and so I import into my new career, also an ambivalence.

17:52

I’m here, but I’m only really here because I could really do it as well as I wanted to dare.

So you may leave modeling but you won’t really have joined the new career.

This is very difficult to process.

18:10

It’s a very what I do is I like tensing up.

It’s getting quiet Inside.

Yes, because what stands out for me is the conflictual relationship to the choice.

And what I would really hope is that you’re not leave one ambivalent relationship with the profession to create another, ambivalent relationship with another profession behind it, somewhere it is, I couldn’t really be with the person.

18:43

I really wanted to be.

So I married the other one.

That it’s so difficult because I always try to fight against making modeling part of my identity.

And then now coming to the point where no, it was part.

19:02

It was realizing it was more part of my identity than I was willing to let it consciously.

Where would you see Jin Han this is is public health.

Oh, it’s my dream.

19:18

Yeah, I quit at a high point.

I think in my career to do this that I want to hug you fee because we’re really far away, keep her to hug.

I’m giving you the or hug, but I said to her was she got stiff because on some level it landed.

19:41

Yeah, I saw that.

I saw that feet.

It’s difficult because psychology.

What I do now is I love it so much as well.

So then it almost feels as if I started doing it for the wrong reason.

So what that doesn’t mean that you continue for the same reason?

20:02

Yeah, that’s just how it started.

But part of what we’re talking about is what are the high-stakes professions and how we then sometimes choose a lower stick profession where we don’t feel like we are set up with the same kind of anxiety about making it or not making it.

20:24

When it started from, you’re saying on some level, we don’t quit in my family and I was encouraged to continue because we have a net dose of not quitting.

If I said, I want to change my family would support me.

20:40

But how do I say?

I want to change without it, not being experienced as I quit.

Because if I leave with I quit, then my joints of psychology is predicated.

On this sense of failure.

20:58

Which is why Jane started by saying, I left on a high note.

She responded?

Exactly to that thing.

And then we cut you off so you can continue but you can talk to her too.

Before I want has gradually.

21:14

I wanted to ask you what then define success for you and modeling fee because you managed to have a living wage and like you travel the world, you saw a little things.

So then then what is your definition of success in this industry?

Well, I remember the first the first four years of full-time modeling they said, oh you could do Vogue and you know, you would be perfect for Ralph Lauren and not getting any of those.

21:46

What happened to me as well as after those?

I think after three and a half years of constantly, trying to get the measurements needed and just pushing my own boundaries.

I was so tired and unhappy.

I just like, I thought that’s when I quit over.

22:04

That’s when I said, okay, I’m going to study because I’m so unhappy.

It’s funny because we’ve had such different careers.

But like I still recognize a lot of the same feelings.

Like I did get what they promised me.

But still the structure stays the same.

Like you’re still fighting for clients all the time.

22:22

There’s no sort of counting on being rebooked by people and a lot of the insecurity stay the same, no matter what level you’re at.

And like I also got really unhappy.

That’s why I was like, I think it’s time to go and do the thing that I Been maybe a bit scared to do in the last year, but actually really want to do.

22:43

Just study.

And what’s that experience?

Like, for both of you?

Because in a way you had different kinds of adolescents.

You became adults first.

22:59

And now you’re going back to being students.

Yeah.

I felt.

There were a lot of gaps, like, I’d grown up in, you know, and miles in one way, but then, on relationships, for instance, I was I don’t feel like I was as mature in my relationships as I was in knowing to do taxes and how to find an apartment or to figure out how stove worked.

23:26

Like, I think I had all of the Practical stuff down.

A lot of the boundary setting, a lot of the also exploration.

I think a little bit and so what you’re saying is that in a profession where you often have very little It’ll boundaries it creates a challenge in more intimate settings.

23:48

I think.

So tell me more.

We were talking a little bit about nudity and how there’s no boundaries with that.

And also I think it’s the same with pain.

You start to almost.

I think I started to distance myself from my body because it was often uncomfortable, either, because I was more naked than I wanted to be, or because I was in close, they were uncomfortable or was cold, or was too hot.

24:11

So, I think I really started to distance myself.

From the way I was feeling and that also played over into relationships.

So I didn’t really for a long time experience a lot of pleasure from my body either.

So for a while I even thought I had something like vehicle again, where you’re not at all in touch with your body and you feel like you’re constantly in a sort of cloud disassociation.

24:37

Yeah.

For me, it felt like that.

Like I didn’t I was going through the day and I was, but I felt like I Has more often somewhere in the cloud somewhere nearby, then them really in my body and experiencing myself.

How does the experience of being touched the whole day?

24:55

Your hair, your clothes, your shoes, your feet.

Your how does it influence the way you then experience touch outside of modeling?

I think.

I mean, now if I go to shoot so because I’ve been, I’m in a lovely relationship now, where we have a lot of trust and like, also through dance, like, Ivory can like rekindle this connection with my body.

25:21

I love dancing and I think that’s been super therapeutic for me.

A great idea.

It’s so good.

I always recommend it to models.

It’s great also for opposing, but also to rekindle, but yeah, now I find it so hard to be on set to be constantly touched and To be like to have people in my space the whole time without negotiating.

25:43

This and I do feel that for many people in the industry.

It’s changed.

Also like we had to meet to movement which overthrew a lot.

So I have a lot more like lately.

I worked in someone was asking my permission to tuck in a shirt and I was like, oh, this is so pleasant.

I can tell you.

It’s okay.

26:00

And it also felt okay.

Then but yeah, I think I was closing it off so much.

The touching on set that also it closed after touching when I wasn’t on set, I think to distinguish those two is almost impossible or at least for me at that age.

26:17

It was But changed it.

That’s definitely dance.

It’s an amazing thing.

I tried these women whose entire career is about their bodies to then hear them talk about this.

26:41

How dissociated they are for those very bodies how much they can’t separate the touch from a loved one, from the touch on the set and how much dance gave her an autonomous venue to reconnect with her sensuality with her senses.

27:00

Movement, that is not about performance, but about experience.

I completely recognized being cut off from the body.

27:17

Well, what changed the most recent one was last night where I was looking at my pregnant body and I loved it so much and I felt so pretty.

Even though my belly was big and, you know, I gained a bit of weight but I just felt so beautiful.

27:33

It’s like, wow, this is this is this is Womanhood.

So, if you love me, a little chromatic editing, it’s not.

I felt so beautiful.

Even though I was pregnant.

27:51

Is that?

That’s how I should say.

No, that’s how you said it.

It’s like, despite my being pregnant.

I still found myself.

Really beautiful.

Yeah.

Well if you change the grammar, you may change the meaning.

Yeah, well, Well, bad habits die hard, huh?

28:08

Mmm being pregnant makes me feel very beautiful.

Beautiful.

Very nice.

Yeah, with the belly and all of the other, the bigger boobs, all of the other changes.

I don’t.

Yeah.

28:25

It makes me feel really beautiful and very like a woman You know, they are artists who let’s say they play music and for awhile played in Big Concert halls and then at some point she he the band day.

29:23

We’re no longer on the top of the charts.

So equivalent of you’re no longer on the front cover of Vogue, but that doesn’t mean they stop playing the many, many bands who once used to feel big holes that now, do small venues and small clubs, but they continue to play.

29:43

And so there’s often this conversation if when it’s no longer big you should stop or can you still find tremendous joy in doing small venues and being thankful that you’ve been able to Way for 40 years.

Yeah, I like the metaphor.

29:59

It works for me, but I’m not from the industry.

You have to tell me if it carries over, it works for me.

I wonder if it works for my agent.

I mean she’s super supportive.

But if it works in the sense that how the industry’s response to it.

30:14

Yes, it’s worth trying out.

I think.

And that would be nice because I do.

I mean, my body, just knows how to be in front of the camera after all this time.

Like, There’s a kind of playfulness and creativity that I do like about being in front of the camera.

30:31

I think.

Also I really appreciate especially now that I’m wearing Academia, the short reward span of modeling, you know, in one day you create a product that’s been done and think there’s many jobs in which you have a one-day cycle.

Which is something I really like.

30:49

Yeah, I never thought about it in that sense, because it was always for me.

It was a step down and I would still have these High Hopes.

How do you say that?

Take it in the Netherlands?

Yeah, the to the host and I feel hella that you want to keep the highest standards.

31:06

Yes.

Exactly.

You have pregnancy brain.

So I still wanted to maintain those high standards but thinking about adding it looks like at if a can still do a job once it comes up and also maybe to finally accept that side of me as well, that likes to be creative and that I can be both.

31:31

I can be a model or someone that is viewed for that looks.

And then on the other side be someone that’s viewed for their thoughts.

So, the personal memory that was spurred for me, and I really didn’t think about it.

Until now, when we are talking together.

31:49

I had arrived in New York late 20s, and I had worked in the theater and I had studied psychology at the same time.

And I kept thinking it’s a choice.

It’s an either/or.

And the best thing I found was a therapist who said to me.

32:05

Why do you have to choose?

Bring the qualities of one?

Into your life of the other and she liberated me.

My life is bigger than just my profession and I want in my life.

32:21

A number of things.

You don’t have to choose their.

Lots of people who do more than one thing modeling is a part of your identity.

At this point.

It’s not this one leaving that identity and going to find another, you grew up with it.

32:37

You need an agent who It and I could imagine agents who only want diehards, but I could also Imagine agents who like to have a staple of a few people who they can use, whenever who they are.

Not nearly as responsible for, you know, who have a life away from them.

32:56

But enjoy every once in a while to be called in.

Is that realistic or am?

I totally off the chart?

I think it’s realistic, if your salary doesn’t depend on it, and if it’s really just for fun that you want to do.

Do it once every so often.

33:11

If something comes up.

As I listened to Fiji identified with her desire to start a new profession, but stay connected to her career as a model.

33:30

But I missed it because it wasn’t that she wanted to be able to do both.

She actually wanted to be able to separate herself from the darker side of modeling from the place, from which he experiences herself as a casualty of the profession in a constant state of self evaluation.

33:59

Can we talk money?

That’s a piece?

We haven’t really touched.

Oh, I was going to ask something else.

Yeah, I understand this for myself and it feels right, but I do have a lot of difficulty with the industry and how much I feel I should or shouldn’t be part of that.

34:17

It’s such an abusive industry for many people and it’s also so close to escorting at times.

I’ve seen a lot of people go really bad in this industry like eating disorders, you know, Mental Health Choose, and sometimes it then almost becomes for me, like, is my personal enjoyment of something bigger than the concerns that I have.

34:42

And I think we’re both like fee and I are trying to work on improving these industries.

But like it’s a, it’s a really dark one for many.

Like, I’ve had the racehorse version of it.

I mean, it goes all the way back to factory workers.

34:59

Like I’ve done brands that I now wouldn’t really want a model for anymore because of their ethics.

Personally.

I don’t, I don’t want to read be responsible for someone having a non living wage sore, getting poison from like coloring on clothes.

35:15

Maybe it’s too big of a burden to take on for me personally, but I do find that something that the industry is a bit frivolous about, but models are my Niche.

So that’s a like, an effect, and maybe the other people on set and how Much is their voice among models to change some of these Norms.

35:37

Well, the issue I think is that were very isolated.

There are voices, every once in a while, but there’s little Collective voice.

It’s growing.

Social media has helped, but you almost have to pull everyone in one by one and like there’s not many connectors one.

35:55

Sometimes it feels as if the agencies are holding the girls that want to reach reach out to the younger girls to help them that they don’t like it when Girls Talk Amongst each other or exchange information because that could weaken their position.

If they stay in control and control the message that the younger models get from them.

36:18

It’s safer for them.

I see you smiling.

Jane.

Yeah.

I was thinking about something else which is sort of unrelated, but also related.

I remember coming back to New York after.

I had studied and I was seeing new agencies because I want to leave my old one.

36:34

And there was this one agent who I was being interviewed by a big agency and they’re like, why do all these models leave and then think they can come back.

So like, you know, I was 21 and I was being put away by this guy of like 65 and he was just like how dare you even think that there would still be an industry left for you to come back to the house.

36:56

Like I think I actually said that.

That I felt that I was now more able to pick up on cues.

They were giving me on set because I’d actually read the books and I knew the movies and I could talk back because I I had the knowledge to be an adult onset also and that I could put more of myself into it because I understood myself better, but I don’t think that every landed because they, they never asked me back.

37:25

It’s not an industry where you really allowed to make any mistakes.

It’s also an indication.

Three where you are meant to elicit, the desires of others, while you have to inhabit the restrictions in you.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that’s and that’s the more you grow up with.

How does this influence at this moment?

37:44

The way you learn to express your desires because we started to talk with Jane before about touch but I’m thinking even more, broadly.

How do you deal with things that are not part of the code of discipline of what is good and not good for you food?

38:01

Being one of them sex being another one?

Staying up late.

How do you give the self permission?

How do you let yourself be loved by a boyfriend?

That is Looking at you on a magazine page.

That’s funny because I was thinking about that.

Actually that we have two types that kind of come into the industry very Stark but the ones that hyper control themselves, which I think viewers.

38:24

But I too, like I wouldn’t go out late and I wouldn’t go out partying, and then you have the ones that just go, and they go to all the parties and they started late.

They still go to work and it’s all fine.

But for me, that was never the way I manage it.

I think I’m still quite controlled.

38:41

Yeah.

It’s so funny because you’re answering me about boundaries and I’m asking you about permissions.

I mean, I understand that there are two ways that some many models will behave is a video control and restriction.

38:59

Yeah, but I’m asking you how you allow yourself to let go how you give permission to yourself, how you let yourself be touch this one, but also how you let yourself?

Be loved.

How you let yourself experience, pleasure.

ER, especially given that so much of what you do is to create pleasure for those who.

39:17

Look at you.

I think I’m like a 7% good at it.

I would definitely say go dancing, you know, preferably not in front of a mirror.

That’s how I learned suppose.

39:34

I would listen I would you know with a big iPod back in the days.

They would just put it on put music on and then dance in front of the mirror so I could see.

By the way, my body would move.

Yes, so I could see how I look, but the more I looked at how I looked in the more, I imagine that how other people want me to look.

39:51

And look at my look, Etc.

The whole thing becomes.

So externalized that I have very little idea of what I’m feeling on the inside.

Yes.

What happens when I just when I give myself over to my own pleasure to my own mounting sensation without without the eyes.

40:12

I have the right with really good food.

Okay, and can you eat really good food without all the critique and the evaluation afterwards.

Yes.

Good for is not an issue anymore.

Wonderful.

40:27

Yeah.

Good food and good wine.

Mmm.

You understand, I’m talking about play play is unselfconscious.

If you’re measuring watching controlling, evaluating, you’re not playing.

Well you practicing a discipline of some sort, but it’s not about play and pleasure.

40:49

I want more of that.

Yes, because I think that you will be able to keep modeling going.

If it becomes that source of pleasure as well.

I don’t have to leave it to change my relationship to it.

What I enjoy is the movement.

41:06

And there’s something very creative about it, you know, an Artful and and powerful.

And I’m sure the money is a piece of it as well.

It does give it gives you Freedom so much Freedom.

It gives you Freedom.

41:21

Yeah, it’s so sad that it’s still the only industry or women are paid more than combat together with escort for sex working.

But yeah, I definitely appreciate the freedom that it’s The in my life.

What have we not touched?

41:39

I think that part my knee freedom freedom.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think I have a weird relationship with money, which worries me sometimes, because I, when I was 17, I think I started making more money than my parents, who are both doctors for me.

41:57

The abstraction of money in this industry is a really interesting one because they called numbers out to you and they’re such a degree that you come relief.

Anthem the touch her boldness of it like at 16, I was making so much more money than my friends who are doing.

And I would like a little side job somewhere in a cafe.

42:17

And I was lucky that I still have it because I also saw many many around me respond to it with a.

Oh this is going to be forever and I’ll just spend it.

I’ve seen so much money spent and wasted.

It’s given me freedom to make choices now, which is really nice.

42:33

But I still am worried that it will run out and actually don’t know how to manage it properly sometimes.

Hmm.

It’s an interesting dilemma.

Also that in a job.

That’s a one day where you can make money for months, the regular job, where you go and you work everyday and get a little bit for the end of the month is a very different reality.

43:01

Yeah, but it makes more sense because we wouldn’t get paid per job.

You would get paid months and months later and it would be a box sum of all these things combined and deducted and added and flight would be gone and models apartment.

So it’s so in transparent that I I never knew.

43:20

What was mine.

What was the agencies?

So it never failed real.

This is so weird.

Go ahead P.

It’s interesting.

I always ask like, what’s my fee for the day?

And I had Booker’s email me back saying.

43:38

Oh, yeah, you’re always so funny always ask for your day.

Raid was like, why is that funny?

That should be a standard thing in your email.

When you submit a booking confirmation?

This is the money you make but also that you put in the position of having to ask.

Yeah.

43:53

Them being seen as difficult because I asked like, what smell It.

Yeah, and I think also the sometimes the reward of what you do against how much you work for.

It is so we are so they’ll be a super tough day.

You get paid nothing and there’s a super easy day and its really well rewarded.

44:11

It just always seemed almost like Monopoly money, you know, because it couldn’t be real because I didn’t put the effort in that was rewarded with such amounts sometimes.

So I always found out I’m really strange as well.

Is there anything?

44:29

We didn’t touch.

That was important to you?

No, not that.

I can think of for me.

What about you see?

Because I think the thing that I said to you about psychology where you basically froze on me, if you think that you chose a profession because you feel like you didn’t really make it in the other one.

44:50

And this is a fall back.

On some level you will be left with.

I did this because I couldn’t really do the other.

A Thing versus I did the other thing and it didn’t fully take me to the places where I had been promised as a teenage girl, you know, they promised me, I would be the next, you know, star of Ralph Lauren and all of this stuff.

45:12

It’s like Cinderella stories.

They told me.

And as I matured I realized that may not happen, but there’s a lot of other things in there that I find really very captivating.

And and I’m going to create actually Life.

That’s a patchwork of a number of different things.

45:31

You’re for me.

It’s the adding because I came into this conversation thinking.

Okay.

There’s this pain.

I still feel surrounding modeling and is negative view.

I have of it and I feel lighter.

And is if I can look back upon it, with learning opportunities, rather than paying about not, having been able to make it, and not view it as quitting, but as adding something else after my model days.

46:01

Now, I feel like the author instead of the victim.

Good.

What about you gin?

I’m still thinking a lot about the financial part.

It’s partly about taking ownership of what I’ve done.

46:18

I think it’s partly what you said like a reward for my abilities at that time apparently, but also I like the idea of playing for smaller venues that.

I once frequented.

It’s a nice feeling and it’s something that I think I can try to play it as my terms now and if the industry doesn’t want that, that’s also okay for me.

46:41

But if there is the occasional like comeback show, that would be quite fun.

So I think you have your feet on the ground, both of you very much.

But it’s a tough Landing Wella.

47:01

Thank you.

All.

When I listen to them, describe their life as models, I heard the similar story that Embraces the same elements.

47:20

Be you a child actor or a musician or a child athlete.

All these youngsters grow up within the field.

Their entire stages of development are merged with the profession and when they decide to leave it to struggle becomes, how can I leave?

47:40

But still dig parts of me with me.

Esther perel is a therapist best-selling author speaker and host of the podcasts.

Where should we begin?

47:55

And how’s work to apply with a colleague or partner to do a session for the podcast, or to follow along with each episode show notes.

Go to how’s work, dot Esther perel.com.

How’s work is produced by magnificent noise for gimlet and Esther perel Productions.

48:14

Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, evil watch over Hewitt, a Gitana and Kristen Mueller.

Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of housework are Esther perel and Jesse Baker.

48:31

We would also like to thank Lydia Pole, Green Colin Campbell, Courteney Hamilton, Nick oxen horn, Sarah Kramer, Jax all, and the entire Esther perel Global media team.