How’s work is an unscripted one time counseling session focused on work?
For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality names, employers and other identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices, and their stories are real.
He is the pastry, chef is the creative guy.
He is busy with the products.
He is anything to do with customer contact, customer care, the logistics, basically, everything to do with what happens to the macaroons from the door out, and it’s a lot.
One of them is the creative and the other focuses on operations.
Usually that can be a good division of responsibilities.
And it works for them.
What doesn’t work for them is that they can’t communicate anymore.
They’re exploding at each other.
They are selling happiness.
In those beautifully colored French cookies, and the more happiness.
They sell the more miserable.
They become the business is doing good.
Sand growing but I think we lost each other a little bit in the process.
And I think there is a national reaction and it can be very explosive.
When I meet them.
They are scared defeated and they’ve reached their limit, but they don’t know how to get out of these negative escalations that keep repeating themselves on and on.
I’ll take his way of communication way too personal.
I’m getting angry.
I’m getting frustrated.
I don’t recognize myself in that kind of behavior.
I contemplated recently.
I was like, shit, I’m leaving.
I have to leave and so hard.
I really love the guy in a lot of ways.
He brings that Best in Me, despite of all the situations and despite the difficulties we have, I mean, there is also another reason we are doing this is because deep inside.
We do know that we belong to each other and what I do here.
These things are bad, but I still love him.
I can’t take this any longer, but I still deeply care about him.
Help us manage our love relationship so that we can manage our business.
What does it stand for when he says he’s the creative?
Ronnie did especially as like the product itself, you know, the colors, the flavors, the way to attract people together macarons.
And I can be also created, but on another subject like okay, how do you get the macrons to the clients?
How do you organize the company?
So that way, I know what he means.
It means like, okay, together.
We have company, doesn’t matter that.
He’s a pastry chef and I’m the organizer, but still, this is such an interesting division rate.
It’s like one person creates the pastry.
And the other person is seen as the organized efficient person, even though there may be plenty of creativity in the way that you get the macaroons to the lips of your customers.
Is that a division you have just in your company or also in your relationship.
Also in our relationship, it works like that.
The relationship at work comes home with us.
And whenever we get home subjects, which we will also involve me being the productive guy in the kitchen, him being the organizer or anything else, that is not to do with production.
Yeah, comes home with us in what way the chef and he does the dishes for the record.
I cook the Boston.
He does the dishes, the most, he is also a good Chef.
He, when he gets his mind into it.
He can be amazing anything that he does, and that’s what I really admire.
Can you say that to him?
I find that you are amazing at everything that you do and whenever you cook, I love it just as an example, but usually anything else that you dedicate almost your soul to, it makes everything that you do better.
Thank you very much.
And we don’t do this very often.
I know, you know, what happens in the distressed partnership, is that whatever is good is taken for granted or whatever is problematic.
And then you develop a negative sentiment override.
Only the bad stuff gets talked about because the good stuff.
What’s to say it’s obvious?
Mmm, now, when you said it, because you’re sitting both of you facing me.
You were talking to him, but I’d like you actually to connect with him.
When you say it, just look at him because it’s true.
The ice that the trust gets established.
Turn around just face each other for a moment.
I will watch but I’m going to start like this.
And look at him.
I want to I’d like to stop being seen here in the house as the pastry chef as as the one that has to deliver.
Has to be wired about the production.
It has to be over worried about everything around it.
And start being seen as.
The partner in life and not.
All those elements, they actually come with being connected to you at work.
But that’s not what you said to him before.
So, I just was asking you to save again.
What you had told him, which was not about you. because when you start the way you just did, I don’t want to be That’s not a wish.
Usually I want something she start with.
I don’t want something.
You’re going to have an argument.
Yes, you are good at anything that you do and it’s something that I really admire your determined and you get it done and you do it very well. but, There is one thing that you that I believe that it’s difficulty.
Take a moment.
It’s okay. it’s even causes me to get stuck because there is so much stuff that we haven’t been talking about.
When people are stuck in a relationship, they are caught in these repetitive Loops or they can be in a state of chronic Pickering or like here.
They find themselves trapped in these roles that I like straitjackets.
You are the creative, you are the pragmatic and it doesn’t give them the tools necessary to communicate and problem-solve and they need both at this point.
And for that, they need to loosen the straitjacket so that they can become more flexible and more nimble.
And I believe that is the cause of what is happening now to us.
We almost forgot that we can be ourselves and not the business partners here in the house.
When we have to talk about business and we have to talk about stuff that has to be delivered.
It goes into our personal field and he takes over.
And that took over me.
I just couldn’t let go of too many warriors as a pastry chef for as a person that has a company and it has to deliver.
So maybe that came out as a friend gbt because I had to go after the stuff that had to be delivered and I was worried about you.
I was worried that You had too much.
And sometimes priorities were taken and maybe not the ones that had in my mind to be taken first.
And then I would just say, hey, so where is this?
And where is that?
That’s what I understand.
We went in different directions.
Well, you’re good.
You’re very good morning.
I thought that you were.
What does that mean?
You didn’t think that you would be saying all of this so soon?
I know that you’ve been holding all of this in.
He’s been holding so much in.
And when he just floods out of him, he turns to me on the screen and says, you’re good.
As if I am the one who made him.
Say, all of this.
But he was holding it all in.
I didn’t do anything.
He was so ready.
He just needed a safe container so that he could speak his truth.
You’ve been talking to him in your head, both of you all the time to each other.
Oh, the time.
You see to him.
I worry that you’re taking on too much.
I don’t know if he feels cared for or criticized.
I think I know the reason why he didn’t not say this to me before, because I think he was afraid of me because I was really young.
And so my nerves.
And everything that he said, to me what was critic or yeah, it’s hard to realize that, you know, we can communicate on a normal way and say stuff to each other, which would be quite normal to say.
He highlights how they’ve come to an impasse about their communication.
The slightest neutral comment is experienced as criticism and one of the Dynamics, that is so pervasive in conflicted relationships.
Is this confusion between Care and Control?
To the point that even a simple statement, like I’m concerned about you, you’re doing too much.
It’s not clear if it said because you care about me and you worry and it’s an empathic statement or if it’s actually an attack and a critical statement.
You know, there’s a lot of love for me for him.
And I have a lot of respect for him as a business owner, and That’s my partner.
But there’s some situations that I find really difficult to deal with whenever becomes too.
Problem solving in the company or make a separation in the relationship and the company is really smart.
He knows which direction he wants to go to.
But he’s also a man who was in my opinion, dealing with problems in a way.
That is not really my My way to deal with problems.
He’s always wants to solve it immediately.
I need to have time, I need an hour or two or even a day.
Say okay, how are we going to do this?
How we’re going to organize this?
And I sometimes have the feeling that he doesn’t give you the time.
So I feel pushed in the corner which makes me frustrated.
And whenever there it goes up over and over and over again like that.
Just sometimes I get so angry.
That whenever we have a discussion, I become like, not myself.
This is such a common situation could be at home, could be at work.
They have different styles for responding to critical situations.
Basically one person says, go on the attack and the other person says, wait, wait, wait, let’s think it through.
What is feasible to do?
And then one will tell the other you’re way too impulsive and the other one says you’re way too slow and way too passive.
And this dance between acting and thinking is so pervasive in relationships.
And the two of them are experiencing this.
At this point on a daily basis and multiple times a day.
You implode or you explode, first I in code and then I explode he explodes but I don’t see the employed and so I just ignore this portion is something you only notice yourself, right?
You hold it in you, hold it in.
And then, yes, and then it comes out.
And you see his tendency to react immediately as coming from what happens to him.
Well, I know he hates changes.
What makes change so fraught for him?
What’s does he feel?
And what’s the story around that feeling for him?
Because if you’re going to have a conversation, we’re going to try to have, you have a different conversation than the one you’ve been having life.
You can lean in leading to the mic and linen.
There is a sense of feeling of fear. and I’m afraid that this will take over my Tranquility, which it’s also related to the fact that I’ve been depressed and I’ve had situations in the past of that could easily get to me and I wouldn’t be able to deal with it.
But the first thing is this, okay.
Something is threatening something, is we might make me go back to a state of Not being well or I state of anxiety around it.
I will immediately look for solution.
And this is why a lot of the times I’m walked talking over people.
I am, I am not listening.
I am fixated on what I have in mind, because it’s a survival thing throughout my whole life ahead situation.
A lot of situations that I had to just be a Survivor.
I’m going to slow you down.
Is that okay?
Yes, please do.
I got very excited.
It’s a lot.
So, when a situation occurs, like what?
like, She a macaroon machine that doesn’t work the way that it should be a macaron.
That is cost a fortune.
It’s meant to deliver and suddenly it’s not.
Okay, so There is.
And your reaction is fear.
Yes, and you experience it as a threat?
Yes, and the feeling is I’m not going to be able to deal with this.
Yeah, and you’re looking for an immediate solution, but it’s not so clear.
If you’re looking for a solution to your sense of overwhelm, or if you’re looking to a solution to the macaron machine.
In fact, it is absolutely clear to me that your solution and your entire psychological engagement at that moment is about how not to feel overwhelmed, how not to feel the threat of being helpless and it is not about the machine.
How am I going to survive this?
Is not a question that one has when a machine breaks down.
It’s a question that comes from way back when?
So, can I meet the Survivor in you?
And what does he she they say to you?
You mean the Survivor inside?
Something is taken from me. and in this case, it is the ability to produce more choose to apply more to do to control more production to have it in my hands, as it should be any two to make a way of living.
Give me the story to the thing.
When you say, I’ve had to survive many times, what did you mean?
When we talking about a broken machine.
With words, like, I’ve had to survive many times.
It is clear that we’re not going to be talking about a machine, but we going to have to go and find the history of that experience where life has felt dire and a sense of survival has become the mechanism for coping.
I was the first son out of four, so I have two brothers and one, sister, and I was born after three abortions, abortions that Happened.
Because of, Because of Fate physical debility.
And I was the expected guy.
I had a lot of love for sure from everyone, in the family.
And then after two years, came clean, Brothers.
Then everything felt like taken from me.
Oh, for the fact that there’s another detail of my mom had to lie down in bed for 7 months.
One of my brother’s one of the twins also had complications.
So they also leave needed a lot of care.
I almost feel they prevails.
In my life, these situations whenever something comes to take over.
It brings me back, maybe to that, to that passed and then came my sister.
My sister also had some birth complications.
There was a beginning of a cerebral palsy, which did not affect crazy amounts, but then there was the princess and Also, took the spotlight.
One of the things that he alludes to here is one of his core beliefs, the idea that good things can be taken away from you.
They won’t necessarily last and so when you have them, you have got to fight for it.
You have to hold on, and he comes with this attitude of nobody’s gonna fuck with me.
He fights with the provided.
Of the machine like he fought at home for his survival.
I grew up with a very difficult, very hard for me to listen and a no as an answer.
And whenever a fret comes, this is the thing I have to deal with it.
Almost like if I don’t I will let this one more thing take over my life and, and you cannot say no, or did I need to wait, or did I need to But I don’t have the rights to do something about teacher to overthink of, I don’t know. it’s a hard one, a But I’m not aware of how I cannot let this.
Also, I’m going to use the word very heavy, but destroy my relationship, and maybe my partnership at work.
Because it’s very hard, not to be this guy.
You know, none of that.
No, what did you learn?
I know him.
Now, we’re five and a half years and I love him love, but it’s Of course, I had the idea that had something to do with his history.
His growing up his family.
But no, I didn’t know this and I did not know this.
I’m guessing gives me a good feeling that he’s opening up towards me.
And that’s why I just Stick with him so far.
But I also want him to know that he’s not alone.
Talk to him.
I wish we you that you understand that you don’t need to do a self every problem yourself.
Cuz I’m there for you.
But I would suggest to you is that when a situation occurs and he falls prey to this sense of.
Once again, my whole world is falling apart, and there’s another thing that I can’t control and and it doesn’t matter if it’s a small thing or a big machine.
The sense of I don’t have control over my world that can change under my feet at any moment and I have to deal with all of this alone lives inside of him, regardless of the size of the problem.
When a situation occurs, just put your hand on him and then you just tell him you’re not alone.
Don’t talk about the machine first start by just first of all grounding him and just tell him, you know, the loan I’ll deal with this or I’m here to help or we’ll figure this out.
I have to admit that in the past when we had these moments.
I will do the opposite.
I would run away from it.
And I think that was a scaring him away.
Yeah, then then another thing is taken from me.
Or from my peace of mind.
I think what I find more complicated is, is the fact that his to-do list.
Throughout these five years. grew and grew and grew and now, His to-do list is bigger than mine.
And anything that is added on just feels like suffocating.
And whenever I actually come with a request or even trying to point point something that has to be may be brought as a priority in his to-do list.
It feels like I am diminishing him.
I feel uncomfortable when I have to ask then they stare is this impasse about What do I need to ask from you?
What can I ask from you?
And what is going to be the reaction?
And usually the reaction comes into like oh what the fuck?
I know it.
I’m going to deliver is going to come soon or why are you asking me this again?
It became harder and harder now, to speak to you about.
Anything related to the corner?
Because I almost feel now that all this stuff that I can be brought up even related to issues or not, our friend turning to our relationship.
If we can actually find a relationship. and this is what I come with and sometimes I am so focused that I like probably sound like feel that I sound like inquisitive.
Because I want to get that done sorted in out of my way, so I can actually be home and leave my relationship without the Work Connection anymore because I am tired.
Five years are exhausting.
I have done this throughout and now we have shared, we have put our companies into shares and we have a third business partner, so I am desperate to start letting go and start disconnecting from all of this.
This is stop us from being The Lovable couple that we used to be at this point in the relationship.
When he is agitated, even when he’s trying to say something nice.
I know that the message received on the other side response to the agitation.
Unless to the longing.
And so I want to take a moment and first repeat and frame and clarify and interpret that which has just been said.
And I heard from him, my fear.
Is that any Problem, small, or big can sometimes completely unravel me.
Making me feel like, one more time.
I’m losing grip over my whole situation and I start to feel panicked that I’m all alone having to deal with a world that falls apart.
And then I’m listening to you, saying, with great honesty.
I sometimes move away because I And if I want to help I want to be useful, but since he’s fighting me, I just say fuck it.
You want to do it, do it yourself, which, of course, throws him further into the abyss?
And his fear is about being all alone, but my fear as I’ve come to think of it.
Is I Astaire I’ve come to think of it is about made to feel incompetent.
Not good enough.
So then I leave you want to do it, you do it yourself.
And so I’m all alone, and I’m not good enough.
Is what comes home?
Those are the parts of you that end up getting into fights with each other.
Is there something of that?
Yes, there’s a lot of that. there’s a lot of insecurity not being heard.
Frustration, because of that.
Yeah, that makes me nervous.
That makes me feel like I’m not enough for him.
And what’s the story for you that accompanies that feeling?
I think I’ve been going out with a lovely family and everything was really well.
But whenever there was a problem, things haven’t been talked about.
And after a while the whole problem does not exist anymore.
So talking about emotions or situations is not something that I’ve been used to in the past.
I grew up, you know, with feeling attracted to boys.
That’s not a big issue for me.
But still I needed to, you know, having this little secret because I was quite late when I was coming out like, 26 or something.
I always fight for myself and I was used to being independent.
I think it’s also a reason and I was, I have a partner who I have.
The feeling does not listen to me or doesn’t want to have my help or But, you know, that that’s not accurate, right?
You know, he’s actually desperate for your help.
That’s what I know now.
Yeah, but the head that he’s desperate to receive is not only fixing the machine, or not.
Only the item that he wants you to change on your to-do list.
It becomes representative of I’m not alone and I don’t have to figure everything out by myself and my world is not falling apart.
That’s what you really helping him with, on a personal level.
Both things, of course, exist.
I’ve been able to figure things out by myself, my whole life and I have a good sense of my competence.
Why do you make me feel so inadequate?
You say to him or that, that part of you says to him.
And in fact, he chose well.
Because you are very competent.
That’s the first sentence.
He said, tell me something you started out as lovers or you started out as business partners.
What came first?
Lovers, well, we became business partners because I came from London.
I was meant to go back after 1 year, but after I met him I fell in love and I decided to stay.
And my decision to stay.
Got me into the idea of opening my own business and he helped me with the, with the opening and not too long later.
He joined in.
And the day that I went out and I said, I found the production kitchen where I can work.
I brought all the happiness that in the world with me that they home to say, I made it, but I can share my life with you.
Do you remember that day?
I remember that they will never forget that day.
I remember to yes.
What’s one thing that you remember from that day, the big smile on his face?
Being proud of that, he arranged.
Yeah, I fell in love.
I fell in love with his adventurous side.
No, but I really had a lot of respect for him, leaving London and jumping into this adventure and staying in Holland.
But you also, I remember that you also felt special because I was actually staying here for you.
Yeah, and we have a dream that I could get somewhere, but I knew that as a pastry chef, I could work.
I couldn’t do anything as long as I was.
Determined and the love was actually the first.
The first intention.
And this is one thing that I remember.
Well, you felt like you were the reason and I couldn’t see any do that and I wanted you to see that.
You were the reason that made me stay.
And everything coming after that was just an add-on and it became a little world for a while.
We’re anything new and exciting happening would make us just have fun and pink changed.
It’s not just that I’m curious to find out how they started and it’s not even that I just want to go and wax nostalgic.
There’s a reason for this question.
Like there’s a reason for every move in this session in this one, this moment.
It’s about poking a hole in the Stillness of the narrative.
Is mired in bitterness and mean problems and disenchantment?
Do you remember the day you found a bakery when there was hope and possibility and you were forward-looking.
It is not just that they remembered the facts.
It’s that they are also connecting with feelings.
It’s the reconnecting of the broken thread of effect of emotion.
That’s becomes part of the healing language.
I never had thought that I would have our own company selling more goons.
What were you planning to do before?
That is working in different kind of companies and organizations Financial work?
And Then I met this beautiful, man.
You know, I like to see people who are creative and have talent to make something, because I don’t have it myself.
You know, I’m just not really great with Kirsten, is that?
That’s okay, you know, but I like to see other people, you know, becoming a part of a business who makes people happy.
You know, we’re not selling products which you use for cleaning or no be selling happiness.
I had to get used to having a boyfriend, a partner who want to start a business, but some point, I came I got into it and I liked it and Now it’s out doing but we have to make it a dream again.
Well, you can’t make everybody else happy while you become miserable to get.
And it takes Someone Like You.
To be able to Simply say what you said before, I’m here for you will deal with this.
And a machine is a machine and our dream is bigger.
People will always want macaroons.
Because they will always want comfort and happiness.
Because a little cookie can go a long way.
Because the cookie is there when you are happy and the cookie is there, when you are miserable and the cookie is there, when you’re lonely and the cookie is there, when you celebrating connection.
Yeah, the cookies there for you to share.
And when you share that bite, you share the love.
When you break that cooking half you break the Perfection of a cookie, which is that beautiful.
To give it to someone special.
You let that one have a bite of your happiness.
The come home with the cookie.
Do you still enjoy eating them?
We do enjoy it.
Although I really do it only in very special occasions because for me it’s still a treat.
So when we, but when we bring it home, we know it’s special because it’s the celebration.
It’s a celebration.
Could you do that once a week?
Yeah, bring him a special one that you make.
Just for him, remembered.
It was all about how special he felt.
Yeah. it’s funny, because Everything that I make the first person that I think of this him.
Yeah, but he has no way of knowing that.
Yeah, if you don’t tell him that show him that share the bite with him on that and he has no way of knowing that neither of you have any way at this point of knowing, how important you are to each other.
Because what you actually play out with each other points to the opposite.
And then you can talk about the happiness that you provide to others, but it doesn’t seep into the two of you and that is a pity.
That doesn’t mean you have to be a celebration on a daily basis, but it means that you have to not just dump frustrations on each other.
If you can tell him every once in a while every day, when I create something new, I think of you first, then you remember, the relationship that brought this whole business into being, Yeah, I always wanted him to try it first to be the first one to experience.
Something that I, that I put my energy and loving you.
But now we went into being that small full of Trials and full of discoveries into a bigger little bit more.
I’m not going to say mass production yet, but where we just made a range.
That stage something that we created as an identity and is not as Dynamic anymore, because now with the pandemic, we just stayed frozen.
It was more about oh my God, how do we get that happiness into the clients?
Despite the fact that we’re not happy ourselves, but there was always the first word about how do we get that out of the door?
And how do we distribute or how do we survive?
What do we do?
And so super important?
Yeah, then you add what would make you feel good today?
You both shaking your head.
Yeah, I think we agree, right?
Yeah, it’s a it’s an eye-opening.
Yeah, we have to get back to the beginning where we felt love with each other but also ambitious and the happiness, which started a company.
And I think deep inside of me.
I know it’s still there.
And I know we can find it.
I think it’s also too to learn more about each other.
And to respect each other more to understand the differences, the respect the differences and get to the point dad.
Yeah, life is in the relationship.
It all sounds really good.
You old sounds dreamy.
And And possible.
And I know what it deep inside.
I know what it takes to actually fulfill relationship.
And I think this is my main thing now.
And it’s good to say that we can be happy that we can beat this and we can beat that.
And there is a lot of love and all of that to stuff.
But we had to go through a rough path and I saw something in him that I really dislike.
I started seeing things on our relationship.
That is the representation of all the fear, or everything that I fear in a person.
And I saw it coming towards me and I’m not saying that I’m the good guy here.
I’m just saying that.
Okay, even more you were right to Defending Your Life.
However you want, but please is almost like don’t become the thing that I hate.
Most of the things that I fear most or the thing that I can’t deal with. and that means explosion, that means And strong reaction, a lashing reaction.
And then I go into the pile of I’m going to say anxiety, but sadness.
Like what have I done?
I still need this.
Am I asking too much?
How can I ask you ask him to do this for me and still to love me after because I am just constantly nagging about it.
And suddenly becomes like, okay.
What what else do you expect from me?
I cannot do it this quick enough. but then it comes on an explosive way and That is when I was ready to leave.
I’m still fearing that I’m still ready to leave.
There is love and there is understanding and there is still that fear that I can be the activation of what maybe he dislike most also.
But now we were already ready to leave and now because of a pandemic suddenly, a massive row must a massive argument.
Just force us to stay together and face things in a different way because there is nowhere to go.
And I’m glad that this is happening right now because we have you.
To maybe ignite and this is happening.
I feel a little ignition already that Kind of wake us up for what we can, actually, maybe love again.
But now how can we make sure that this same scenario is not going to happen over and over again because it has happened, then he has escalated.
How do you make up?
How do we make up?
Yeah, we don’t we just wait.
Just be quiet for a few days and then at some point it’s getting back to the same routine or when we talk about it.
It’s just a matter of settling into.
We love each other.
Let’s just let it go.
That’s his way to approach it and then suddenly he comes all over but we gained and then I start questioning.
What the fuck am I doing?
Why do I need to leave this man?
He was the first reason that I actually decided to stop my whole fucked-up life and straighten up and be the best of myself.
And why do I have to be leaving?
Why does it have to become a friend?
Okay, so, You have got.
To reverse together, the tendency to only point at the negative and the broken and the frustrating, and to leave everything that you do do for each other.
So, this demands self-monitoring?
Everyday, I’m going to make sure to notice one nice thing that my partner did said or showed something that was good for me for us.
And baby, this is a training to small little thing.
Have I told my partner something?
It’s not something nice.
It’s just something that I noticed that they did that, they knew it and it could be that they brought you coffee in the morning.
And then it’s one thing to say, thanks for bringing the coffee, but it’s an even better thing to say.
Thanks for being so thoughtful.
The third thing is that as you sit and have meetings about every detail of what you need to do around production around marketing around media, etc.
You can see how many aspects of your business relationship.
You are paying close attention to And meanwhile, you’re letting yourself die on the vine.
So translate what a six or seven areas of your relationship as business partners, and as life partners that you need to attend to.
If you understand how important it is to share the bite of Happiness, then you make sure that on a regular basis every week.
Be it at home or away from home.
You do something that becomes we share a bite of happiness.
You do it either with a cookie or with something else, doesn’t matter.
But the point is that you create, you bring that very ritual into your own relationship.
Yes, it’s so nice.
The way you said it.
Say again, in your own words.
Yeah, if you put the law of.
Which we have four for macaron in our relationship.
We will always want to eat more.
We want to see each other more be with each other more seek each other out, more.
Yes, when I hung up with them, I wished I had asked him to go and get a couple of macaroons and share the bike together because they talk about the experience that they want their clients to have, but I wanted them to have a moment.
Where they could taste their own recipe.
Esther perel is a therapist best-selling author speaker and host of the podcasts.
Where should we begin?
And how’s work to apply with a colleague or partner to do a session for the podcast, or to follow along with each episode show notes, go to how’s work dot Esther perel.com.
How’s work is produced by magnificent noise for gimlet and Esther perel Productions.
Our Staff includes Eric Newsome.
Evil watch over Hewitt.
A gotama and Kristen Mueller.
Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
And the executive producers of housework are Esther perel and Jesse Baker.
We would also like to thank Lydia Pole, Green Colin Campbell, Courteney Hamilton, Nick oxen horn, Sarah Kramer, Jax all, and the entire Esther perel Global media team.