The following is a conversation with Rajat Manga.
He’s an engineer and director of Google,
leading the TensorFlow team.
TensorFlow is an open source library
at the center of much of the work going on in the world
in deep learning, both the cutting edge research
and the large scale application of learning based approaches.
But it’s quickly becoming much more than a software library.
It’s now an ecosystem of tools for the deployment of machine
learning in the cloud, on the phone, in the browser,
on both generic and specialized hardware.
TPU, GPU, and so on.
Plus, there’s a big emphasis on growing a passionate community
Rajat, Jeff Dean, and a large team of engineers at Google
Brain are working to define the future of machine
learning with TensorFlow 2.0, which is now in alpha.
I think the decision to open source TensorFlow
is a definitive moment in the tech industry.
It showed that open innovation can be successful
and inspire many companies to open source their code,
to publish, and in general engage
in the open exchange of ideas.
This conversation is part of the Artificial Intelligence
If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, iTunes,
or simply connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman,
spelled F R I D.
And now, here’s my conversation with Rajat Manga.
You were involved with Google Brain since its start in 2011
with Jeff Dean.
It started with this belief, the proprietary machine learning
library, and turned into TensorFlow in 2014,
the open source library.
So what were the early days of Google Brain like?
What were the goals, the missions?
How do you even proceed forward once there’s
so much possibilities before you?
It was interesting back then when I started,
or when you were even just talking about it,
the idea of deep learning was interesting and intriguing
in some ways.
It hadn’t yet taken off, but it held some promise.
It had shown some very promising and early results.
I think the idea where Andrew and Jeff had started
was, what if we can take this work people are doing
in research and scale it to what Google has
in terms of the compute power, and also
put that kind of data together?
What does it mean?
And so far, the results had been, if you scale the compute,
scale the data, it does better.
And would that work?
And so that was the first year or two, can we prove that out?
And with this belief, when we started the first year,
we got some early wins, which is always great.
What were the wins like?
What was the wins where you were,
there’s some problems to this, this is going to be good?
I think there are two early wins where one was speech,
that we collaborated very closely with the speech research
team, who was also getting interested in this.
And the other one was on images, where the cat paper,
as we call it, that was covered by a lot of folks.
And the birth of Google Brain was around neural networks.
So it was deep learning from the very beginning.
That was the whole mission.
So what would, in terms of scale,
what was the sort of dream of what this could become?
Were there echoes of this open source TensorFlow community
that might be brought in?
Was there a sense of TPUs?
Was there a sense of machine learning is now going to be
at the core of the entire company,
is going to grow into that direction?
Yeah, I think, so that was interesting.
And if I think back to 2012 or 2011,
and first was can we scale it in the year or so,
we had started scaling it to hundreds and thousands
In fact, we had some runs even going to 10,000 machines.
And all of those shows great promise.
In terms of machine learning at Google,
the good thing was Google’s been doing machine learning
for a long time.
Deep learning was new, but as we scaled this up,
we showed that, yes, that was possible.
And it was going to impact lots of things.
Like we started seeing real products wanting to use this.
Again, speech was the first, there were image things
that photos came out of and then many other products as well.
So that was exciting.
As we went into that a couple of years,
externally also academia started to,
there was lots of push on, okay,
deep learning is interesting,
we should be doing more and so on.
And so by 2014, we were looking at, okay,
this is a big thing, it’s going to grow.
And not just internally, externally as well.
Yes, maybe Google’s ahead of where everybody is,
but there’s a lot to do.
So a lot of this started to make sense and come together.
So the decision to open source,
I was just chatting with Chris Glatner about this.
The decision to go open source with TensorFlow,
I would say sort of for me personally,
seems to be one of the big seminal moments
in all of software engineering ever.
I think that’s when a large company like Google
decides to take a large project that many lawyers
might argue has a lot of IP,
just decide to go open source with it,
and in so doing lead the entire world
and saying, you know what, open innovation
is a pretty powerful thing, and it’s okay to do.
That was, I mean, that’s an incredible moment in time.
So do you remember those discussions happening?
Whether open source should be happening?
What was that like?
I would say, I think, so the initial idea came from Jeff,
who was a big proponent of this.
I think it came off of two big things.
One was research wise, we were a research group.
We were putting all our research out there.
If you wanted to, we were building on others research
and we wanted to push the state of the art forward.
And part of that was to share the research.
That’s how I think deep learning and machine learning
has really grown so fast.
So the next step was, okay, now,
would software help with that?
And it seemed like they were existing
a few libraries out there, Tiano being one,
Torch being another, and a few others,
but they were all done by academia
and so the level was significantly different.
The other one was from a software perspective,
Google had done lots of software
or that we used internally, you know,
and we published papers.
Often there was an open source project
that came out of that that somebody else
picked up that paper and implemented
and they were very successful.
Back then it was like, okay, there’s Hadoop,
which has come off of tech that we’ve built.
We know the tech we’ve built is way better
for a number of different reasons.
We’ve invested a lot of effort in that.
And turns out we have Google Cloud
and we are now not really providing our tech,
but we are saying, okay, we have Bigtable,
which is the original thing.
We are going to now provide H base APIs
on top of that, which isn’t as good,
but that’s what everybody’s used to.
So there’s like, can we make something
that is better and really just provide,
helps the community in lots of ways,
but also helps push a good standard forward.
So how does Cloud fit into that?
There’s a TensorFlow open source library
and how does the fact that you can
use so many of the resources that Google provides
and the Cloud fit into that strategy?
So TensorFlow itself is open
and you can use it anywhere, right?
And we want to make sure that continues to be the case.
On Google Cloud, we do make sure
that there’s lots of integrations with everything else
and we want to make sure
that it works really, really well there.
You’re leading the TensorFlow effort.
Can you tell me the history
and the timeline of TensorFlow project
in terms of major design decisions,
so like the open source decision,
but really what to include and not?
There’s this incredible ecosystem
that I’d like to talk about.
There’s all these parts,
but what if just some sample moments
that defined what TensorFlow eventually became
through its, I don’t know if you’re allowed to say history
when it’s just, but in deep learning,
everything moves so fast
and just a few years is already history.
Yes, yes, so looking back, we were building TensorFlow.
I guess we open sourced it in 2015, November 2015.
We started on it in summer of 2014, I guess.
And somewhere like three to six, late 2014,
by then we had decided that, okay,
there’s a high likelihood we’ll open source it.
So we started thinking about that
and making sure we’re heading down that path.
At that point, by that point,
we had seen a few, lots of different use cases at Google.
So there were things like, okay,
yes, you wanna run it at large scale in the data center.
Yes, we need to support different kind of hardware.
We had GPUs at that point.
We had our first GPU at that point
or was about to come out roughly around that time.
So the design sort of included those.
We had started to push on mobile.
So we were running models on mobile.
At that point, people were customizing code.
So we wanted to make sure TensorFlow
could support that as well.
So that sort of became part of that overall design.
When you say mobile,
you mean like a pretty complicated algorithms
running on the phone?
So when you have a model that you deploy on the phone
and run it there, right?
So already at that time,
there was ideas of running machine learning on the phone.
We already had a couple of products
that were doing that by then.
And in those cases,
we had basically customized handcrafted code
or some internal libraries that we’re using.
So I was actually at Google during this time
in a parallel, I guess, universe,
but we were using Theano and Caffe.
Was there some degree to which you were bouncing,
like trying to see what Caffe was offering people,
trying to see what Theano was offering
that you want to make sure you’re delivering
on whatever that is?
Perhaps the Python part of thing,
maybe did that influence any design decisions?
So when we built this belief
and some of that was in parallel
with some of these libraries coming up,
I mean, Theano itself is older,
but we were building this belief
focused on our internal thing
because our systems were very different.
By the time we got to this,
we looked at a number of libraries that were out there.
Theano, there were folks in the group
who had experience with Torch, with Lua.
There were folks here who had seen Caffe.
I mean, actually, Yang Jing was here as well.
There’s what other libraries?
I think we looked at a number of things.
Might even have looked at JNR back then.
I’m trying to remember if it was there.
In fact, yeah, we did discuss ideas around,
okay, should we have a graph or not?
So putting all these together was definitely,
they were key decisions that we wanted.
We had seen limitations in our prior disbelief things.
A few of them were just in terms of research
was moving so fast, we wanted the flexibility.
The hardware was changing fast.
We expected to change that
so that those probably were two things.
And yeah, I think the flexibility
in terms of being able to express
all kinds of crazy things was definitely a big one then.
So what, the graph decisions though,
with moving towards TensorFlow 2.0,
there’s more, by default, there’ll be eager execution.
So sort of hiding the graph a little bit
because it’s less intuitive
in terms of the way people develop and so on.
What was that discussion like in terms of using graphs?
It seemed, it’s kind of the Theano way.
Did it seem the obvious choice?
So I think where it came from was our disbelief
had a graph like thing as well.
A much more simple, it wasn’t a general graph,
it was more like a straight line thing.
More like what you might think of cafe,
I guess in that sense.
But the graph was,
and we always cared about the production stuff.
Like even with disbelief,
we were deploying a whole bunch of stuff in production.
So graph did come from that when we thought of,
okay, should we do that in Python?
And we experimented with some ideas
where it looked a lot simpler to use,
but not having a graph meant,
okay, how do you deploy now?
So that was probably what tilted the balance for us
and eventually we ended up with a graph.
And I guess the question there is, did you,
I mean, so production seems to be
the really good thing to focus on,
but did you even anticipate the other side of it
where there could be, what is it?
What are the numbers?
It’s been crazy, 41 million downloads.
I mean, was that even like a possibility in your mind
that it would be as popular as it became?
So I think we did see a need for this
a lot from the research perspective
and like early days of deep learning in some ways.
41 million, no, I don’t think I imagined this number.
Then it seemed like there’s a potential future
where lots more people would be doing this
and how do we enable that?
I would say this kind of growth,
I probably started seeing somewhat after the open sourcing
where it was like, okay,
deep learning is actually growing way faster
for a lot of different reasons.
And we are in just the right place to push on that
and leverage that and deliver on lots of things
that people want.
So what changed once you open sourced?
Like how this incredible amount of attention
from a global population of developers,
how did the project start changing?
I don’t even actually remember during those times.
I know looking now, there’s really good documentation,
there’s an ecosystem of tools,
there’s a community, there’s a blog,
there’s a YouTube channel now, right?
It’s very community driven.
Back then, I guess 0.1 version,
is that the version?
I think we call it 0.6 or five,
something like that, I forget.
What changed leading into 1.0?
I think we’ve gone through a few things there.
When we started out, when we first came out,
people loved the documentation we have
because it was just a huge step up from everything else
because all of those were academic projects,
people doing, who don’t think about documentation.
I think what that changed was,
instead of deep learning being a research thing,
some people who were just developers
could now suddenly take this out
and do some interesting things with it, right?
Who had no clue what machine learning was before then.
And that I think really changed
how things started to scale up in some ways
and pushed on it.
Over the next few months as we looked at
how do we stabilize things,
as we look at not just researchers,
now we want stability, people want to deploy things.
That’s how we started planning for 1.0
and there are certain needs for that perspective.
And so again, documentation comes up,
designs, more kinds of things to put that together.
And so that was exciting to get that to a stage
where more and more enterprises wanted to buy in
and really get behind that.
And I think post 1.0 and over the next few releases,
that enterprise adoption also started to take off.
I would say between the initial release and 1.0,
it was, okay, researchers of course,
then a lot of hobbies and early interest,
people excited about this who started to get on board
and then over the 1.x thing, lots of enterprises.
I imagine anything that’s below 1.0
gives pressure to be,
the enterprise probably wants something that’s stable.
And do you have a sense now that TensorFlow is stable?
Like it feels like deep learning in general
is extremely dynamic field, so much is changing.
And TensorFlow has been growing incredibly.
Do you have a sense of stability at the helm of it?
I mean, I know you’re in the midst of it, but.
Yeah, I think in the midst of it,
it’s often easy to forget what an enterprise wants
and what some of the people on that side want.
There are still people running models
that are three years old, four years old.
So Inception is still used by tons of people.
Even ResNet 50 is what, couple of years old now or more,
but there are tons of people who use that and they’re fine.
They don’t need the last couple of bits of performance
or quality, they want some stability
in things that just work.
And so there is value in providing that
with that kind of stability and making it really simpler
because that allows a lot more people to access it.
And then there’s the research crowd which wants,
okay, they wanna do these crazy things
exactly like you’re saying, right?
Not just deep learning in the straight up models
that used to be there, they want RNNs
and even RNNs are maybe old, they are transformers now.
And now it needs to combine with RL and GANs and so on.
So there’s definitely that area that like the boundary
that’s shifting and pushing the state of the art.
But I think there’s more and more of the past
that’s much more stable and even stuff
that was two, three years old is very, very usable
by lots of people.
So that part makes it a lot easier.
So I imagine, maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong,
one of the biggest use cases is essentially
taking something like ResNet 50
and doing some kind of transfer learning
on a very particular problem that you have.
It’s basically probably what majority of the world does.
And you wanna make that as easy as possible.
So I would say for the hobbyist perspective,
that’s the most common case, right?
In fact, the apps and phones and stuff that you’ll see,
the early ones, that’s the most common case.
I would say there are a couple of reasons for that.
One is that everybody talks about that.
It looks great on slides.
That’s a presentation, yeah, exactly.
What enterprises want is that is part of it,
but that’s not the big thing.
Enterprises really have data
that they wanna make predictions on.
This is often what they used to do
with the people who were doing ML
was just regression models,
linear regression, logistic regression, linear models,
or maybe gradient booster trees and so on.
Some of them still benefit from deep learning,
but they want that’s the bread and butter,
or like the structured data and so on.
So depending on the audience you look at,
they’re a little bit different.
And they just have, I mean, the best of enterprise
probably just has a very large data set,
or deep learning can probably shine.
That’s correct, that’s right.
And then I think the other pieces that they wanted,
again, with 2.0, the developer summit we put together
is the whole TensorFlow Extended piece,
which is the entire pipeline.
They care about stability across doing their entire thing.
They want simplicity across the entire thing.
I don’t need to just train a model.
I need to do that every day again, over and over again.
I wonder to which degree you have a role in,
I don’t know, so I teach a course on deep learning.
I have people like lawyers come up to me and say,
when is machine learning gonna enter legal,
the legal realm?
The same thing in all kinds of disciplines,
immigration, insurance, often when I see
what it boils down to is these companies
are often a little bit old school
in the way they organize the data.
So the data is just not ready yet, it’s not digitized.
Do you also find yourself being in the role
of an evangelist for like, let’s get,
organize your data, folks, and then you’ll get
the big benefit of TensorFlow.
Do you get those, have those conversations?
Yeah, yeah, you know, I get all kinds of questions there
from, okay, what do I need to make this work, right?
Do we really need deep learning?
I mean, there are all these things,
I already use this linear model, why would this help?
I don’t have enough data, let’s say,
or I wanna use machine learning,
but I have no clue where to start.
So it varies, that to all the way to the experts
to why support very specific things, it’s interesting.
Is there a good answer?
It boils down to oftentimes digitizing data.
So whatever you want automated,
whatever data you want to make prediction based on,
you have to make sure that it’s in an organized form.
Like within the TensorFlow ecosystem,
there’s now, you’re providing more and more data sets
and more and more pre trained models.
Are you finding yourself also the organizer of data sets?
Yes, I think the TensorFlow data sets
that we just released, that’s definitely come up
where people want these data sets,
can we organize them and can we make that easier?
So that’s definitely one important thing.
The other related thing I would say is I often tell people,
you know what, don’t think of the most fanciest thing
that the newest model that you see,
make something very basic work and then you can improve it.
There’s just lots of things you can do with it.
Yeah, start with the basics, true.
One of the big things that makes TensorFlow
even more accessible was the appearance
whenever that happened of Keras,
the Keras standard sort of outside of TensorFlow.
I think it was Keras on top of Tiano at first only
and then Keras became on top of TensorFlow.
Do you know when Keras chose to also add TensorFlow
as a backend, who was the,
was it just the community that drove that initially?
Do you know if there was discussions, conversations?
Yeah, so Francois started the Keras project
before he was at Google and the first thing was Tiano.
I don’t remember if that was
after TensorFlow was created or way before.
And then at some point,
when TensorFlow started becoming popular,
there were enough similarities
that he decided to create this interface
and put TensorFlow as a backend.
I believe that might still have been
before he joined Google.
So we weren’t really talking about that.
He decided on his own and thought that was interesting
and relevant to the community.
In fact, I didn’t find out about him being at Google
until a few months after he was here.
He was working on some research ideas
and doing Keras on his nights and weekends project.
He wasn’t like part of the TensorFlow.
He didn’t join initially.
He joined research and he was doing some amazing research.
He has some papers on that and research,
so he’s a great researcher as well.
And at some point we realized,
oh, he’s doing this good stuff.
People seem to like the API and he’s right here.
So we talked to him and he said,
okay, why don’t I come over to your team
and work with you for a quarter
and let’s make that integration happen.
And we talked to his manager and he said,
sure, quarter’s fine.
And that quarter’s been something like two years now.
And so he’s fully on this.
So Keras got integrated into TensorFlow in a deep way.
And now with 2.0, TensorFlow 2.0,
sort of Keras is kind of the recommended way
for a beginner to interact with TensorFlow.
Which makes that initial sort of transfer learning
or the basic use cases, even for an enterprise,
super simple, right?
That’s correct, that’s right.
So what was that decision like?
That seems like it’s kind of a bold decision as well.
We did spend a lot of time thinking about that one.
We had a bunch of APIs, some built by us.
There was a parallel layers API that we were building.
And when we decided to do Keras in parallel,
so there were like, okay, two things that we are looking at.
And the first thing we was trying to do
is just have them look similar,
like be as integrated as possible,
share all of that stuff.
There were also like three other APIs
that others had built over time
because we didn’t have a standard one.
But one of the messages that we kept hearing
from the community, okay, which one do we use?
And they kept seeing like, okay,
here’s a model in this one and here’s a model in this one,
which should I pick?
So that’s sort of like, okay,
we had to address that straight on with 2.0.
The whole idea was we need to simplify.
We had to pick one.
Based on where we were, we were like,
okay, let’s see what are the people like?
And Keras was clearly one that lots of people loved.
There were lots of great things about it.
So we settled on that.
Organically, that’s kind of the best way to do it.
It was great.
It was surprising, nevertheless,
to sort of bring in an outside.
I mean, there was a feeling like Keras
might be almost like a competitor
in a certain kind of, to TensorFlow.
And in a sense, it became an empowering element
Yeah, it’s interesting how you can put two things together,
which can align.
In this case, I think Francois, the team,
and a bunch of us have chatted,
and I think we all want to see the same kind of things.
We all care about making it easier
for the huge set of developers out there,
and that makes a difference.
So Python has Guido van Rossum,
who until recently held the position
of benevolent dictator for life.
All right, so there’s a huge successful open source project
like TensorFlow need one person who makes a final decision.
So you’ve did a pretty successful TensorFlow Dev Summit
just now, last couple of days.
There’s clearly a lot of different new features
being incorporated, an amazing ecosystem, so on.
Who’s, how are those design decisions made?
Is there a BDFL in TensorFlow,
or is it more distributed and organic?
I think it’s somewhat different, I would say.
I’ve always been involved in the key design directions,
but there are lots of things that are distributed
where there are a number of people, Martin Wick being one,
who has really driven a lot of our open source stuff,
a lot of the APIs,
and there are a number of other people who’ve been,
you know, pushed and been responsible
for different parts of it.
We do have regular design reviews.
Over the last year, we’ve had a lot of
we’ve really spent a lot of time opening up to the community
and adding transparency.
We’re setting more processes in place,
so RFCs, special interest groups,
to really grow that community and scale that.
I think the kind of scale that ecosystem is in,
I don’t think we could scale with having me
as the lone point of decision maker.
I got it. So, yeah, the growth of that ecosystem,
maybe you can talk about it a little bit.
First of all, it started with Andrej Karpathy
when he first did ComNetJS.
The fact that you can train and you’ll network
So now TensorFlow.js is really making that
a serious, like a legit thing,
a way to operate, whether it’s in the backend
or the front end.
Then there’s the TensorFlow Extended, like you mentioned.
There’s TensorFlow Lite for mobile.
And all of it, as far as I can tell,
it’s really converging towards being able to
save models in the same kind of way.
You can move around, you can train on the desktop
and then move it to mobile and so on.
So there’s that cohesiveness.
So can you maybe give me, whatever I missed,
a bigger overview of the mission of the ecosystem
that’s trying to be built and where is it moving forward?
Yeah. So in short, the way I like to think of this is
our goals to enable machine learning.
And in a couple of ways, you know, one is
we have lots of exciting things going on in ML today.
We started with deep learning,
but we now support a bunch of other algorithms too.
So one is to, on the research side,
keep pushing on the state of the art.
Can we, you know, how do we enable researchers
to build the next amazing thing?
So BERT came out recently, you know,
it’s great that people are able to do new kinds of research.
And there are lots of amazing research
that happens across the world.
So that’s one direction.
The other is how do you take that across
all the people outside who want to take that research
and do some great things with it
and integrate it to build real products,
to have a real impact on people.
And so if that’s the other axes in some ways,
you know, at a high level, one way I think about it is
there are a crazy number of compute devices
across the world.
And we often used to think of ML and training
and all of this as, okay, something you do
either in the workstation or the data center or cloud.
But we see things running on the phones.
We see things running on really tiny chips.
I mean, we had some demos at the developer summit.
And so the way I think about this ecosystem is
how do we help get machine learning on every device
that has a compute capability?
And that continues to grow and so in some ways
this ecosystem is looked at, you know,
various aspects of that and grown over time
to cover more of those.
And we continue to push the boundaries.
In some areas we’ve built more tooling
and things around that to help you.
I mean, the first tool we started was TensorBoard.
You wanted to learn just the training piece,
the effects or TensorFlow extended
to really do your entire ML pipelines.
If you’re, you know, care about all that production stuff,
but then going to the edge,
going to different kinds of things.
And it’s not just us now.
We are a place where there are lots of libraries
being built on top.
So there are some for research,
maybe things like TensorFlow agents
or TensorFlow probability that started as research things
or for researchers for focusing
on certain kinds of algorithms,
but they’re also being deployed
or used by, you know, production folks.
And some have come from within Google,
just teams across Google
who wanted to build these things.
Others have come from just the community
because there are different pieces
that different parts of the community care about.
And I see our goal as enabling even that, right?
It’s not, we cannot and won’t build every single thing.
That just doesn’t make sense.
But if we can enable others to build the things
that they care about, and there’s a broader community
that cares about that, and we can help encourage that,
and that’s great.
That really helps the entire ecosystem, not just those.
One of the big things about 2.0 that we’re pushing on is,
okay, we have these so many different pieces, right?
How do we help make all of them work well together?
So there are a few key pieces there that we’re pushing on,
one being the core format in there
and how we share the models themselves
through save model and TensorFlow hub and so on.
And a few of the pieces that we really put this together.
I was very skeptical that that’s,
you know, when TensorFlow.js came out,
it didn’t seem, or deep learning JS as it was earlier.
Yeah, that was the first.
It seems like technically very difficult project.
As a standalone, it’s not as difficult,
but as a thing that integrates into the ecosystem,
it seems very difficult.
So, I mean, there’s a lot of aspects of this
you’re making look easy, but,
and the technical side,
how many challenges have to be overcome here?
And still have to be overcome.
That’s the question here too.
There are lots of steps to it, right?
And we’ve iterated over the last few years,
so there’s a lot we’ve learned.
I, yeah, and often when things come together well,
things look easy and that’s exactly the point.
It should be easy for the end user,
but there are lots of things that go behind that.
If I think about still challenges ahead,
you know, we have a lot more devices coming on board,
for example, from the hardware perspective.
How do we make it really easy for these vendors
to integrate with something like TensorFlow, right?
So there’s a lot of compiler stuff
that others are working on.
There are things we can do in terms of our APIs
and so on that we can do.
As we, you know,
TensorFlow started as a very monolithic system
and to some extent it still is.
There are less, lots of tools around it,
but the core is still pretty large and monolithic.
One of the key challenges for us to scale that out
is how do we break that apart with clearer interfaces?
It’s, you know, in some ways it’s software engineering 101,
but for a system that’s now four years old, I guess,
or more, and that’s still rapidly evolving
and that we’re not slowing down with,
it’s hard to change and modify and really break apart.
It’s sort of like, as people say, right,
it’s like changing the engine with a car running
or trying to fix that.
That’s exactly what we’re trying to do.
So there’s a challenge here
because the downside of so many people
being excited about TensorFlow
and coming to rely on it in many of their applications
is that you’re kind of responsible,
like it’s the technical debt.
You’re responsible for previous versions
to some degree still working.
So when you’re trying to innovate,
I mean, it’s probably easier
to just start from scratch every few months.
So do you feel the pain of that?
2.0 does break some back compatibility,
but not too much.
It seems like the conversion is pretty straightforward.
Do you think that’s still important
given how quickly deep learning is changing?
Can you just, the things that you’ve learned,
can you just start over or is there pressure to not?
It’s a tricky balance.
So if it was just a researcher writing a paper
who a year later will not look at that code again,
sure, it doesn’t matter.
There are a lot of production systems
that rely on TensorFlow,
both at Google and across the world.
And people worry about this.
I mean, these systems run for a long time.
So it is important to keep that compatibility and so on.
And yes, it does come with a huge cost.
There’s, we have to think about a lot of things
as we do new things and make new changes.
I think it’s a trade off, right?
You can, you might slow certain kinds of things down,
but the overall value you’re bringing
because of that is much bigger
because it’s not just about breaking the person yesterday.
It’s also about telling the person tomorrow
that, you know what, this is how we do things.
We’re not gonna break you when you come on board
because there are lots of new people
who are also gonna come on board.
And, you know, one way I like to think about this,
and I always push the team to think about it as well,
when you wanna do new things,
you wanna start with a clean slate.
Design with a clean slate in mind,
and then we’ll figure out
how to make sure all the other things work.
And yes, we do make compromises occasionally,
but unless you design with the clean slate
and not worry about that,
you’ll never get to a good place.
Oh, that’s brilliant, so even if you are responsible
when you’re in the idea stage,
when you’re thinking of new,
just put all that behind you.
Okay, that’s really, really well put.
So I have to ask this
because a lot of students, developers ask me
how I feel about PyTorch versus TensorFlow.
So I’ve recently completely switched
my research group to TensorFlow.
I wish everybody would just use the same thing,
and TensorFlow is as close to that, I believe, as we have.
But do you enjoy competition?
So TensorFlow is leading in many ways,
on many dimensions in terms of ecosystem,
in terms of number of users,
momentum, power, production levels, so on,
but a lot of researchers are now also using PyTorch.
Do you enjoy that kind of competition
or do you just ignore it
and focus on making TensorFlow the best that it can be?
So just like research or anything people are doing,
it’s great to get different kinds of ideas.
And when we started with TensorFlow,
like I was saying earlier,
one, it was very important
for us to also have production in mind.
We didn’t want just research, right?
And that’s why we chose certain things.
Now PyTorch came along and said,
you know what, I only care about research.
This is what I’m trying to do.
What’s the best thing I can do for this?
And it started iterating and said,
okay, I don’t need to worry about graphs.
Let me just run things.
And I don’t care if it’s not as fast as it can be,
but let me just make this part easy.
And there are things you can learn from that, right?
They, again, had the benefit of seeing what had come before,
but also exploring certain different kinds of spaces.
And they had some good things there,
building on say things like JNR and so on before that.
So competition is definitely interesting.
It made us, you know,
this is an area that we had thought about,
like I said, way early on.
Over time we had revisited this a couple of times,
should we add this again?
At some point we said, you know what,
it seems like this can be done well,
so let’s try it again.
And that’s how we started pushing on eager execution.
How do we combine those two together?
Which has finally come very well together in 2.0,
but it took us a while to get all the things together
and so on.
So let me ask, put another way,
I think eager execution is a really powerful thing
that was added.
Do you think it wouldn’t have been,
you know, Muhammad Ali versus Frasier, right?
Do you think it wouldn’t have been added as quickly
if PyTorch wasn’t there?
It might have taken longer.
Yeah, it was, I mean,
we had tried some variants of that before,
so I’m sure it would have happened,
but it might have taken longer.
I’m grateful that TensorFlow is finally
in the way they did.
It’s doing some incredible work last couple years.
What other things that we didn’t talk about
are you looking forward in 2.0?
That comes to mind.
So we talked about some of the ecosystem stuff,
making it easily accessible to Keras,
Is there other things that we missed?
Yeah, so I would say one is just where 2.0 is,
and you know, with all the things that we’ve talked about,
I think as we think beyond that,
there are lots of other things that it enables us to do
and that we’re excited about.
So what it’s setting us up for,
okay, here are these really clean APIs.
We’ve cleaned up the surface for what the users want.
What it also allows us to do a whole bunch of stuff
behind the scenes once we are ready with 2.0.
So for example, in TensorFlow with graphs
and all the things you could do,
you could always get a lot of good performance
if you spent the time to tune it, right?
And we’ve clearly shown that, lots of people do that.
With 2.0, with these APIs, where we are,
we can give you a lot of performance
just with whatever you do.
You know, because we see these, it’s much cleaner.
We know most people are gonna do things this way.
We can really optimize for that
and get a lot of those things out of the box.
And it really allows us, you know,
both for single machine and distributed and so on,
to really explore other spaces behind the scenes
after 2.0 in the future versions as well.
So right now the team’s really excited about that,
that over time I think we’ll see that.
The other piece that I was talking about
in terms of just restructuring the monolithic thing
into more pieces and making it more modular,
I think that’s gonna be really important
for a lot of the other people in the ecosystem,
other organizations and so on that wanted to build things.
Can you elaborate a little bit what you mean
by making TensorFlow ecosystem more modular?
So the way it’s organized today is there’s one,
there are lots of repositories
in the TensorFlow organization at GitHub.
The core one where we have TensorFlow,
it has the execution engine,
it has the key backends for CPUs and GPUs,
it has the work to do distributed stuff.
And all of these just work together
in a single library or binary.
There’s no way to split them apart easily.
I mean, there are some interfaces,
but they’re not very clean.
In a perfect world, you would have clean interfaces where,
okay, I wanna run it on my fancy cluster
with some custom networking,
just implement this and do that.
I mean, we kind of support that,
but it’s hard for people today.
I think as we are starting to see more interesting things
in some of these spaces,
having that clean separation will really start to help.
And again, going to the large size of the ecosystem
and the different groups involved there,
enabling people to evolve
and push on things more independently
just allows it to scale better.
And by people, you mean individual developers and?
So the hope is that everybody sort of major,
I don’t know, Pepsi or something uses,
like major corporations go to TensorFlow to this kind of.
Yeah, if you look at enterprises like Pepsi or these,
I mean, a lot of them are already using TensorFlow.
They are not the ones that do the development
or changes in the core.
Some of them do, but a lot of them don’t.
I mean, they touch small pieces.
There are lots of these,
some of them being, let’s say, hardware vendors
who are building their custom hardware
and they want their own pieces.
Or some of them being bigger companies, say, IBM.
I mean, they’re involved in some of our
special interest groups,
and they see a lot of users
who want certain things and they want to optimize for that.
So folks like that often.
Autonomous vehicle companies, perhaps.
So, yeah, like I mentioned,
TensorFlow has been downloaded 41 million times,
50,000 commits, almost 10,000 pull requests,
and 1,800 contributors.
So I’m not sure if you can explain it,
but what does it take to build a community like that?
In retrospect, what do you think,
what is the critical thing that allowed
for this growth to happen,
and how does that growth continue?
Yeah, yeah, that’s an interesting question.
I wish I had all the answers there, I guess,
so you could replicate it.
I think there are a number of things
that need to come together, right?
One, just like any new thing,
it is about, there’s a sweet spot of timing,
what’s needed, does it grow with,
what’s needed, so in this case, for example,
TensorFlow’s not just grown because it was a good tool,
it’s also grown with the growth of deep learning itself.
So those factors come into play.
Other than that, though,
I think just hearing, listening to the community,
what they do, what they need,
being open to, like in terms of external contributions,
we’ve spent a lot of time in making sure
we can accept those contributions well,
we can help the contributors in adding those,
putting the right process in place,
getting the right kind of community,
welcoming them and so on.
Like over the last year, we’ve really pushed on transparency,
that’s important for an open source project.
People wanna know where things are going,
and we’re like, okay, here’s a process
where you can do that, here are our RFCs and so on.
So thinking through, there are lots of community aspects
that come into that you can really work on.
As a small project, it’s maybe easy to do
because there’s like two developers and you can do those.
As you grow, putting more of these processes in place,
thinking about the documentation,
thinking about what two developers care about,
what kind of tools would they want to use,
all of these come into play, I think.
So one of the big things I think
that feeds the TensorFlow fire
is people building something on TensorFlow,
and implement a particular architecture
that does something cool and useful,
and they put that on GitHub.
And so it just feeds this growth.
Do you have a sense that with 2.0 and 1.0
that there may be a little bit of a partitioning
like there is with Python 2 and 3,
that there’ll be a code base
and in the older versions of TensorFlow,
they will not be as compatible easily?
Or are you pretty confident that this kind of conversion
is pretty natural and easy to do?
So we’re definitely working hard
to make that very easy to do.
There’s lots of tooling that we talked about
at the developer summit this week,
and we’ll continue to invest in that tooling.
It’s, you know, when you think
of these significant version changes,
that’s always a risk,
and we are really pushing hard
to make that transition very, very smooth.
So I think, so at some level,
people wanna move and they see the value in the new thing.
They don’t wanna move just because it’s a new thing,
and some people do,
but most people want a really good thing.
And I think over the next few months,
as people start to see the value,
we’ll definitely see that shift happening.
So I’m pretty excited and confident
that we will see people moving.
As you said earlier, this field is also moving rapidly,
so that’ll help because we can do more things
and all the new things will clearly happen in 2.x,
so people will have lots of good reasons to move.
So what do you think TensorFlow 3.0 looks like?
Is there, are things happening so crazily
that even at the end of this year
seems impossible to plan for?
Or is it possible to plan for the next five years?
I think it’s tricky.
There are some things that we can expect
in terms of, okay, change, yes, change is gonna happen.
Are there some things gonna stick around
and some things not gonna stick around?
I would say the basics of deep learning,
the, you know, say convolution models
or the basic kind of things,
they’ll probably be around in some form still in five years.
Will RL and GAN stay?
Very likely, based on where they are.
Will we have new things?
Probably, but those are hard to predict.
And some directionally, some things that we can see is,
you know, in things that we’re starting to do, right,
with some of our projects right now
is just 2.0 combining eager execution and graphs
where we’re starting to make it more like
just your natural programming language.
You’re not trying to program something else.
Similarly, with Swift for TensorFlow,
we’re taking that approach.
Can you do something ground up, right?
So some of those ideas seem like, okay,
that’s the right direction.
In five years, we expect to see more in that area.
Other things we don’t know is,
will hardware accelerators be the same?
Will we be able to train with four bits
instead of 32 bits?
And I think the TPU side of things is exploring that.
I mean, TPU is already on version three.
It seems that the evolution of TPU and TensorFlow
are sort of, they’re coevolving almost in terms of
both are learning from each other and from the community
and from the applications
where the biggest benefit is achieved.
You’ve been trying to sort of, with Eager, with Keras,
to make TensorFlow as accessible
and easy to use as possible.
What do you think, for beginners,
is the biggest thing they struggle with?
Have you encountered that?
Or is basically what Keras is solving is that Eager,
like we talked about?
Yeah, for some of them, like you said, right,
the beginners want to just be able to take
some image model,
they don’t care if it’s Inception or ResNet
or something else,
and do some training or transfer learning
on their kind of model.
Being able to make that easy is important.
So in some ways,
if you do that by providing them simple models
with say, in hub or so on,
they don’t care about what’s inside that box,
but they want to be able to use it.
So we’re pushing on, I think, different levels.
If you look at just a component that you get,
which has the layers already smooshed in,
the beginners probably just want that.
Then the next step is, okay,
look at building layers with Keras.
If you go out to research,
then they are probably writing custom layers themselves
or doing their own loops.
So there’s a whole spectrum there.
And then providing the pre trained models
seems to really decrease the time from you trying to start.
You could basically in a Colab notebook
achieve what you need.
So I’m basically answering my own question
because I think what TensorFlow delivered on recently
is trivial for beginners.
So I was just wondering if there was other pain points
you’re trying to ease,
but I’m not sure there would.
No, those are probably the big ones.
I see high schoolers doing a whole bunch of things now,
which is pretty amazing.
It’s both amazing and terrifying.
In a sense that when they grow up,
it’s some incredible ideas will be coming from them.
So there’s certainly a technical aspect to your work,
but you also have a management aspect to your role
with TensorFlow leading the project,
a large number of developers and people.
So what do you look for in a good team?
What do you think?
Google has been at the forefront of exploring
what it takes to build a good team
and TensorFlow is one of the most cutting edge technologies
in the world.
So in this context, what do you think makes for a good team?
It’s definitely something I think a favorite about.
I think in terms of the team being able
to deliver something well,
one of the things that’s important is a cohesion
across the team.
So being able to execute together in doing things
that’s not an end, like at this scale,
an individual engineer can only do so much.
There’s a lot more that they can do together,
even though we have some amazing superstars across Google
and in the team, but there’s, you know,
often the way I see it as the product
of what the team generates is way larger
than the whole or the individual put together.
And so how do we have all of them work together,
the culture of the team itself,
hiring good people is important.
But part of that is it’s not just that,
okay, we hire a bunch of smart people
and throw them together and let them do things.
It’s also people have to care about what they’re building,
people have to be motivated for the right kind of things.
That’s often an important factor.
And, you know, finally, how do you put that together
with a somewhat unified vision of where we wanna go?
So are we all looking in the same direction
or each of us going all over?
And sometimes it’s a mix.
Google’s a very bottom up organization in some sense,
also research even more so, and that’s how we started.
But as we’ve become this larger product and ecosystem,
I think it’s also important to combine that well
with a mix of, okay, here’s the direction we wanna go in.
There is exploration we’ll do around that,
but let’s keep staying in that direction,
not just all over the place.
And is there a way you monitor the health of the team?
Sort of like, is there a way you know you did a good job?
The team is good?
Like, I mean, you’re sort of, you’re saying nice things,
but it’s sometimes difficult to determine how aligned.
Because it’s not binary.
It’s not like there’s tensions and complexities and so on.
And the other element of the mission of superstars,
there’s so much, even at Google,
such a large percentage of work
is done by individual superstars too.
So there’s a, and sometimes those superstars
can be against the dynamic of a team and those tensions.
I mean, I’m sure in TensorFlow it might be
a little bit easier because the mission of the project
is so sort of beautiful.
You’re at the cutting edge, so it’s exciting.
But have you had struggle with that?
Has there been challenges?
There are always people challenges
in different kinds of ways.
That said, I think we’ve been what’s good
about getting people who care and are, you know,
have the same kind of culture,
and that’s Google in general to a large extent.
But also, like you said, given that the project
has had so many exciting things to do,
there’s been room for lots of people
to do different kinds of things and grow,
which does make the problem a bit easier, I guess.
And it allows people, depending on what they’re doing,
if there’s room around them, then that’s fine.
But yes, we do care about whether a superstar or not,
that they need to work well with the team across Google.
That’s interesting to hear.
So it’s like superstar or not,
the productivity broadly is about the team.
I mean, they might add a lot of value,
but if they’re hurting the team, then that’s a problem.
So in hiring engineers, it’s so interesting, right,
the hiring process.
What do you look for?
How do you determine a good developer
or a good member of a team
from just a few minutes or hours together?
Again, no magic answers, I’m sure.
Yeah, I mean, Google has a hiring process
that we’ve refined over the last 20 years, I guess,
and that you’ve probably heard and seen a lot about.
So we do work with the same hiring process
and that’s really helped.
For me in particular, I would say,
in addition to the core technical skills,
what does matter is their motivation
in what they wanna do.
Because if that doesn’t align well
with where we wanna go,
that’s not gonna lead to long term success
for either them or the team.
And I think that becomes more important
the more senior the person is,
but it’s important at every level.
Like even the junior most engineer,
if they’re not motivated to do well
at what they’re trying to do,
however smart they are,
it’s gonna be hard for them to succeed.
Does the Google hiring process touch on that passion?
So like trying to determine,
because I think as far as I understand,
maybe you can speak to it,
that the Google hiring process sort of helps
in the initial like determines the skill set there,
is your puzzle solving ability,
problem solving ability good?
But like, I’m not sure,
but it seems that the determining
whether the person is like fire inside them,
that burns to do anything really,
it doesn’t really matter.
It’s just some cool stuff,
I’m gonna do it.
Is that something that ultimately ends up
when they have a conversation with you
or once it gets closer to the team?
So one of the things we do have as part of the process
is just a culture fit,
like part of the interview process itself,
in addition to just the technical skills
and each engineer or whoever the interviewer is,
is supposed to rate the person on the culture
and the culture fit with Google and so on.
So that is definitely part of the process.
Now, there are various kinds of projects
and different kinds of things.
So there might be variants
and of the kind of culture you want there and so on.
And yes, that does vary.
So for example,
TensorFlow has always been a fast moving project
and we want people who are comfortable with that.
But at the same time now, for example,
we are at a place where we are also very full fledged product
and we wanna make sure things that work
really, really work, right?
You can’t cut corners all the time.
So balancing that out and finding the people
who are the right fit for those is important.
And I think those kinds of things do vary a bit
across projects and teams and product areas across Google.
And so you’ll see some differences there
in the final checklist.
But a lot of the core culture,
it comes along with just the engineering excellence
and so on.
What is the hardest part of your job?
I’ll take your pick, I guess.
It’s fun, I would say, right?
I mean, lots of things at different times.
I think that does vary.
So let me clarify that difficult things are fun
when you solve them, right?
So it’s fun in that sense.
I think the key to a successful thing across the board
and in this case, it’s a large ecosystem now,
but even a small product,
is striking that fine balance
across different aspects of it.
Sometimes it’s how fast do you go
versus how perfect it is.
Sometimes it’s how do you involve this huge community?
Who do you involve or do you decide,
okay, now is not a good time to involve them
because it’s not the right fit.
Sometimes it’s saying no to certain kinds of things.
Those are often the hard decisions.
Some of them you make quickly
because you don’t have the time.
Some of them you get time to think about them,
but they’re always hard.
So both choices are pretty good, those decisions.
What about deadlines?
Is this, do you find TensorFlow,
to be driven by deadlines
to a degree that a product might?
Or is there still a balance to where it’s less deadline?
You had the Dev Summit today
that came together incredibly.
Looked like there’s a lot of moving pieces and so on.
So did that deadline make people rise to the occasion
releasing TensorFlow 2.0 alpha?
I’m sure that was done last minute as well.
I mean, up to the last point.
Again, it’s one of those things
that you need to strike the good balance.
There’s some value that deadlines bring
that does bring a sense of urgency
to get the right things together.
Instead of getting the perfect thing out,
you need something that’s good and works well.
And the team definitely did a great job
in putting that together.
So I was very amazed and excited
by everything how that came together.
That said, across the year,
we try not to put out official deadlines.
We focus on key things that are important,
figure out how much of it’s important.
And we are developing in the open,
both internally and externally,
everything’s available to everybody.
So you can pick and look at where things are.
We do releases at a regular cadence.
So fine, if something doesn’t necessarily end up
this month, it’ll end up in the next release
in a month or two.
And that’s okay, but we want to keep moving
as fast as we can in these different areas.
Because we can iterate and improve on things,
sometimes it’s okay to put things out
that aren’t fully ready.
We’ll make sure it’s clear that okay,
this is experimental, but it’s out there
if you want to try and give feedback.
That’s very, very useful.
I think that quick cycle and quick iteration is important.
That’s what we often focus on rather than
here’s a deadline where you get everything else.
Is 2.0, is there pressure to make that stable?
Or like, for example, WordPress 5.0 just came out
and there was no pressure to,
it was a lot of build updates delivered way too late,
but, and they said, okay, well,
but we’re gonna release a lot of updates
really quickly to improve it.
Do you see TensorFlow 2.0 in that same kind of way
or is there this pressure to once it hits 2.0,
once you get to the release candidate
and then you get to the final,
that’s gonna be the stable thing?
So it’s gonna be stable in,
just like when NodeX was where every API that’s there
is gonna remain in work.
It doesn’t mean we can’t change things under the covers.
It doesn’t mean we can’t add things.
So there’s still a lot more for us to do
and we’ll continue to have more releases.
So in that sense, there’s still,
I don’t think we’ll be done in like two months
when we release this.
I don’t know if you can say, but is there,
there’s not external deadlines for TensorFlow 2.0,
but is there internal deadlines,
the artificial or otherwise,
that you’re trying to set for yourself
or is it whenever it’s ready?
So we want it to be a great product, right?
And that’s a big important piece for us.
TensorFlow’s already out there.
We have 41 million downloads for 1.0 X.
So it’s not like we have to have this.
So it’s not like, a lot of the features
that we’ve really polishing
and putting them together are there.
We don’t have to rush that just because.
So in that sense, we wanna get it right
and really focus on that.
That said, we have said that we are looking
to get this out in the next few months,
in the next quarter.
And as far as possible,
we’ll definitely try to make that happen.
Yeah, my favorite line was, spring is a relative concept.
I love it.
Spoken like a true developer.
So something I’m really interested in
and your previous line of work is,
before TensorFlow, you led a team at Google on search ads.
I think this is a very interesting topic
on every level, on a technical level,
because at their best, ads connect people
to the things they want and need.
So, and at their worst, they’re just these things
that annoy the heck out of you
to the point of ruining the entire user experience
of whatever you’re actually doing.
So they have a bad rep, I guess.
And on the other end, so that this connecting users
to the thing they need and want
is a beautiful opportunity for machine learning to shine.
Like huge amounts of data that’s personalized
and you kind of map to the thing
they actually want won’t get annoyed.
So what have you learned from this,
Google that’s leading the world in this aspect,
what have you learned from that experience
and what do you think is the future of ads?
Take you back to that.
Yeah, yes, it’s been a while,
but I totally agree with what you said.
I think the search ads, the way it was always looked at
and I believe it still is,
is it’s an extension of what search is trying to do.
And the goal is to make the information
and make the world’s information accessible.
That’s it’s not just information,
but maybe products or other things that people care about.
And so it’s really important for them to align
with what the users need.
And in search ads, there’s a minimum quality level
before that ad would be shown.
If you don’t have an ad that hits that quality,
but it will not be shown even if we have it
and okay, maybe we lose some money there, that’s fine.
That is really, really important.
And I think that that is something I really liked
about being there.
Advertising is a key part.
I mean, as a model, it’s been around for ages, right?
It’s not a new model, it’s been adapted to the web
and became a core part of search
and many other search engines across the world.
And I do hope, like you said,
there are aspects of ads that are annoying
and I go to a website and if it just keeps popping
an ad in my face not to let me read,
that’s gonna be annoying clearly.
So I hope we can strike that balance
between showing a good ad where it’s valuable to the user
and provides the monetization to the service.
And this might be search, this might be a website,
all of these, they do need the monetization
for them to provide that service.
But if it’s done in a good balance between
showing just some random stuff that’s distracting
versus showing something that’s actually valuable.
So do you see it moving forward as to continue
being a model that funds businesses like Google,
that’s a significant revenue stream?
Because that’s one of the most exciting things
but also limiting things in the internet
is nobody wants to pay for anything.
And advertisements, again, coupled at their best,
are actually really useful and not annoying.
Do you see that continuing and growing and improving
or is there, do you see sort of more Netflix type models
where you have to start to pay for content?
I think it’s a mix.
I think it’s gonna take a long while for everything
to be paid on the internet, if at all, probably not.
I mean, I think there’s always gonna be things
that are sort of monetized with things like ads.
But over the last few years, I would say
we’ve definitely seen that transition towards
more paid services across the web
and people are willing to pay for them
because they do see the value.
I mean, Netflix is a great example.
I mean, we have YouTube doing things.
People pay for the apps they buy.
More people I find are willing to pay for newspaper content
for the good news websites across the web.
That wasn’t the case a few years,
even a few years ago, I would say.
And I just see that change in myself as well
and just lots of people around me.
So definitely hopeful that we’ll transition
to that mix model where maybe you get
to try something out for free, maybe with ads,
but then there’s a more clear revenue model
that sort of helps go beyond that.
So speaking of revenue, how is it that a person
can use the TPU in a Google call app for free?
So what’s the, I guess the question is,
what’s the future of TensorFlow in terms of empowering,
say, a class of 300 students?
And I’m asked by MIT, what is going to be the future
of them being able to do their homework in TensorFlow?
Like, where are they going to train these networks, right?
What’s that future look like with TPUs,
with cloud services, and so on?
I think a number of things there.
I mean, any TensorFlow open source,
you can run it wherever, you can run it on your desktop
and your desktops always keep getting more powerful,
so maybe you can do more.
My phone is like, I don’t know how many times
more powerful than my first desktop.
You’ll probably train it on your phone though,
yeah, that’s true.
Right, so in that sense, the power you have
in your hands is a lot more.
Clouds are actually very interesting from, say,
students or courses perspective,
because they make it very easy to get started.
I mean, Colab, the great thing about it is,
go to a website and it just works.
No installation needed, nothing to,
you’re just there and things are working.
That’s really the power of cloud as well.
And so I do expect that to grow.
Again, Colab is a free service.
It’s great to get started, to play with things,
to explore things.
That said, with free, you can only get so much.
You’d be, yeah.
So just like we were talking about,
free versus paid, yeah, there are services
you can pay for and get a lot more.
Great, so if I’m a complete beginner
interested in machine learning and TensorFlow,
what should I do?
Probably start with going to our website
and playing there.
So just go to TensorFlow.org and start clicking on things.
Yep, check out tutorials and guides.
There’s stuff you can just click there
and go to a Colab and do things.
No installation needed, you can get started right there.
Okay, awesome, Rajit, thank you so much for talking today.
Thank you, Lex, it was great.