Lex Fridman Podcast - #82 - Simon Sinek: Leadership, Hard Work, Optimism and the Infinite Game

The following is a conversation with Simon Sinek,

author of several books, including Start With Why,

Leaders Eat Last, and his latest, The Infinite Game.

He’s one of the best communicators

of what it takes to be a good leader,

to inspire, and to build businesses

that solve big, difficult challenges.

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And now, here’s my conversation with Simon Sinek.

In the Infinite Game, your most recent book,

you describe the finite game and the infinite game,

so from my perspective of artificial intelligence

and game theory in general, I’m a huge fan of finite games

from the broad philosophical sense,

it’s something that in the robotics,

artificial intelligence space, we know how to deal with,

and then you describe the infinite game,

which has no exact static rules,

has no well defined static objective,

the players are known, unknown, they change,

there’s the dynamic element,

so this is something that applies to business, politics,

life itself, so can you try to articulate

the objective function here of the infinite game,

or in the cliche, broad philosophical sense,

what is the meaning of life?

Go for the, start with a softball.

Yep, easy question first.

So James Kars was the philosopher

who originally articulated this concept

of finite and infinite games,

and when I learned about it,

it really challenged my view of how the world works, right?

Because I think we all think about winning

and being the best and being number one,

but if you think about it,

only in a finite game can that exist,

a game that has fixed rules, agreed upon objectives,

and known players, like football or baseball,

there’s always a beginning, middle, and end,

and if there’s a winner, there has to be a loser.

Infinite games, as Kars describes them,

as you said, have known and unknown players,

which means anyone can join,

it has changeable rules,

which means you can play however you want,

and the objective is to perpetuate the game,

to stay in the game as long as possible.

In other words, there’s no such thing

as being number one or winning

in a game that has no finish line.

And what I learned is that when we try to win

in a game that has no finish line,

we try to be number, we try to be the best

in a game that has no agreed upon objectives

or agreed upon metrics or timeframes,

there’s a few consistent and predictable outcomes,

the decline of trust, the decline of cooperation,

the decline of innovation.

And I find this fascinating because so many of the ways

that we run most organizations is with a finite mindset.

So trying to reduce the beautiful complex thing

that is life or whatever, politics or business,

into something very narrow,

and in that process, the reductionist process,

you lose something fundamental

that makes the whole thing work in the long term.

So returning, not gonna let you off the hook easy,

what is the meaning of life?

So what is the objective function

that is worthwhile to pursue?

Well, if you think about our tombstones, right?

They have the date we were born and the date we died,

but really it’s what we do with the gap in between.

There’s a poem called The Dash.

You know, it’s the dash that matters.

It’s what we do between the time we’re born

and the time we die that gives our life meaning.

And if we live our lives with a finite mindset,

which means to accumulate more power or money

than anybody else, to outdo everyone else,

to be number one, to be the best,

we don’t take any of us with us.

We don’t take any of it with us.

We just die.

The people who get remembered the way we wanna be remembered

is what kind of people we were, right?

Devoted mother, loving father,

what kind of person we were to other people.

Jack Welch just died recently,

and the Washington Post,

when it wrote the headline for his obit,

it wrote, he pleased Wall Street and distressed employees.

And that’s his legacy.

A finite player who is obsessed with winning,

who leaves behind a legacy of short term gains for a few

and distress for many.

That’s his legacy.

And every single one of us gets the choice

of the kind of legacy we wanna have.

Do we wanna be remembered for our contributions

or our detractions?

To live with a finite mindset,

to live a career with a finite mindset,

to be number one, be the best, be the most famous,

you live a life like Jack Welch, you know?

To live a life of service, to see those around us rise,

to contribute to our communities, to our organizations,

to leave them in better shape than we found them,

that’s the kind of legacy most of us would like to have.

So day to day, when you think about

what is the fundamental goals, dreams,

motivations of an infinite game,

of seeing your life, your career as an infinite game,

what does that look like?

I mean, I guess I’m sort of trying to stick

on this personal ego, personal drive,

the thing that the fire, the reason we wanna wake up

in the morning and the reason we can’t go to bed

because we’re so excited, what is that?

So for me, it’s about having a just cause.

It’s about a vision that’s bigger than me,

that my work gets to contribute

to something larger than myself, you know?

That’s what drives me every day.

I wake up every morning with a vision of a world

that does not yet exist, a world in which the vast majority

of people wake up every single morning inspired,

feel safe at work and return home fulfilled

at the end of the day.

It is not the world we live in.

And so that we still have work to do

is the thing that drives me.

You know, I know what my underlying values are.

You know, I wake up to inspire people

to do the things that inspire them.

And these are the things that, these are the things that I,

these are my go tos, my touch points

that inspire me to keep working.

You know, I think of a career like an iceberg.

You know, if you have a vision for something,

you’re the only one who can see the iceberg

underneath the ocean.

But if you start working at it, a little bit shows up.

And now a few other people can see what you imagine,

be like, oh, right, yeah, no,

I wanna help build that as well.

And if you have a lot of success,

then you have a lot of iceberg

and people can see this huge iceberg

and they say, you’ve accomplished so much.

But what I see is all the work still yet to be done.

You know, I still see the huge iceberg underneath the ocean.

And so the growth, you talk about momentum.

So the incremental revealing of the iceberg

is what drives you.

Well, it necessarily is incremental.

What drives me is that, is the realization,

is realizing the iceberg, bringing more of the iceberg

from the unknown to the known,

bringing more of the vision from the imagination to reality.

And you have this fundamental vision of optimism.

You call yourself an optimist.

I mean, in this world, I have a sort of,

I see myself a little bit as the main character

from The Idiot by Dostoevsky,

who is also kind of seen by society as a fool

because he was optimistic.

So one, can you maybe articulate

where that sense of optimism comes from?

And maybe also try to articulate your vision of the future

where people are inspired, where optimism drives us.

It’s easy to forget that when you look at social media

and so on, where the word toxicity and negativity

can often get more likes,

that optimism has a sort of a beauty to it.

And I do hope it’s out there.

So can you try to articulate that vision?

Yeah, so I mean, for me, optimism and being an optimist

is just seeing the silver lining in every cloud.

Even in tragedy, it brings people together.

And the question is, can we see that?

Can you see the beauty that is in everything?

And I don’t think optimism is foolishness.

I don’t think optimism is blindness,

though it probably involves some naivete,

the belief that things will get better,

the belief that we tend towards the good,

even in times of struggle or bad.

You can’t sustain war, but you can sustain peace.

I think things that are stable are more sustainable,

things that are optimistic are more sustainable

than things that are chaotic.

So you see people as fundamentally good.

I mean, some people may disagree

that you can’t sustain peace, you can’t sustain war.

I mean, I think war is costly.

It involves life and money,

and peace does not involve those things.

It requires work.

I’m not saying it doesn’t require work,

but it doesn’t drain resources,

I think the same way that war does.

The people that would say that we will always have war,

and I just talked to the historian of Stalin,

would say that conflict and the desire for power

and conflict is central to human nature.

I concur.

But something in your words also,

perhaps it’s the naive aspect that I also share,

is that you have an optimism

that people are fundamentally good.

I’m an idealist, and I think idealism is good.

I’m not a fool to believe that the ideals

that I imagine can come true.

Of course, there’ll never be world peace,

but shouldn’t we die trying?

I think that’s the whole point.

That’s the whole point of vision.

Vision should be idealistic,

and it should be, for all practical purposes, impossible.

But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try,

and it’s the milestones that we reach

that take us closer to that ideal

that make us feel that our life and our work have meaning,

and we’re contributing to something bigger than ourselves.

You know, just because it’s impossible

doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try.

As I said, we’re still moving the ball down the field.

We’re still making progress.

Things are still getting better,

even if we never get to that ideal state.

So I think idealism is a good thing.

You know, in the word infinite game,

one of the beautiful and tragic aspects of life,

human life at least, at least from the biological

perspective, is that it ends.

So sadly, it’s.

To some people, yeah.

Fine, it’s tragic to some people, or is it ends, it ends?

I think some people believe that it ends on the day you die,

and some people think it continues on.

There’s, and there’s a lot of different ways

to think what continues on even looks like.

But let me drag it back to the personal.


Which is, how do you think about your own mortality?

Are you afraid of death?

How do you think about your own death?

I definitely haven’t accomplished everything

I want to contribute to.

I would like more time on this earth

to keep working towards that vision.

Do you think about the fact that it ends for you?

Are you cognizant of it?

Of course I’m cognizant of it.

I mean, aren’t we all?

I don’t dwell on it.

I’m aware of it.

I know that my life is finite,

and I know that I have a certain amount of time left

on this planet, and I’d like to make that time be valuable.

You know, some people would think that ideas

kind of allow you to have a certain kind of immortality.


Maybe to linger on this kind of question.

So first to push back on the,

you said that everyone’s cognizant of their mortality.

There’s a guy named Ernest Becker who would disagree,

that you basically say that most of human cognition

is created by us trying to create an illusion

and try to hide the fact from ourselves,

the fact that we’re gonna die,

to try to think that it’s all gonna go on forever.

But the fact that we know that it doesn’t.

Yes, but this mix of denial.

I mean, I think the book’s called Denial of Death.

It’s this constant denial that we’re running away from.

In fact, some would argue that the inspiration,

the incredible ideas you’ve put out there,

your TED Talk has been seen by millions

and millions of people, right?

It’s just you trying to desperately fight the fact

that you are biologically mortal.

Your creative genius comes from the fact

that you’re trying to create ideas

that live on long past you.

Well, that’s very nice of you.

I mean, I would like my ideas to live on beyond me

because I think that is a good test

that those ideas have value in the lives of others.

I think that’s a good test.

That others would continue to talk about

or share the ideas long after I’m gone,

I think is perhaps the greatest compliment

one can get for one’s own work.

But I don’t think it’s my awareness of my mortality

that drives me to do it.

It’s my desire to contribute that drives me to do it.

It’s the optimist vision.

It’s the pleasure and the fulfillment you get

from inspiring others.

It’s as pure as that.

Let me ask, listen, I’m rushing.

I’m trying to get you to get you into these dark areas.

Is the ego tied up into it somehow?

So your name is extremely well known.

If your name wasn’t attached to it,

do you think you would act differently?

I mean, for years, I hated that my name was attached to it.

I had a rule for years that I wouldn’t have my face

on the front page of the website.

I had a fight with the publisher

because I didn’t want my name big on the book.

I wanted it tiny on the book.

Because I kept telling them it’s not about me,

it’s about the ideas.

They wanted to put my name on the top of my book, I refused.

None of my books have my names on the top

because I won’t let them.

They would like very much to put my name

on the top of the book,

but the idea has to be bigger than me.

I’m not bigger than the idea.

That’s beautifully put.

Do you think ego?

But I also am aware that I’ve become recognized

as the messenger.

And even though I still think the message is bigger than me,

I recognize that I have a responsibility as the messenger.

And whether I like it or not is irrelevant.

I accept the responsibility, I’m happy to do it.

I’m not sure how to phrase this,

but there’s a large part of the culture right now

that emphasizes all the things that nobody disagrees with,

which is health, sleep, diet, relaxation,

meditation, vacation, are really important.

And there’s no, it’s like,

you can’t really argue against that.

In fact, people.

Less sleep.


Just, I’m joking.

Yes, well, that’s the thing.

I often speak to the fact that passion

and love for what you’re doing and the two words hard work,

especially in the engineering fields,

are more important than,

are more important to prioritize than sleep.

Even though sleep is really important,

your mind should be obsessed with the hard work,

with the passion, and so on.

And then I get some pushback, of course, from people.

What do you make sense of that?

Is that just me, the crazy Russian engineer,

really pushing hard work?


I think that that’s a short term strategy.

I think if you sacrifice your health for the work,

at some point, it catches up with you.

And at some point, it’s like going, going, going,

and you get sick.

Your body will shut down for you

if you refuse to take care of yourself.

You get sick.

It’s what happens.

Sometimes, more severe illness

than something that just slows you down.

So I think taking, getting sleep,

I mean, there have been studies on this that,

executives, for example, who get a full night’s sleep

and stop at a reasonable hour,

actually accomplish more, are more productive

than people who work and burn the midnight oil

because their brains are working better

because they’re well rested.

So, you know, working hard, yes,

but why not work smart?

I think that giving our minds and our bodies rest

makes us more efficient.

I think just driving, driving, driving, driving

is a short term, it’s a short term strategy.

So, but to push back on that a little bit,

the annoying thing is you’re like 100% right

in terms of science, right?

But the thing is, because you’re 100% right,

that weak part of your mind uses that fact

to convince you, like what, so, you know,

I get all kinds of, my mind comes up

with all kinds of excuses to try to convince me

that I shouldn’t be doing what I’m doing.

To rationalize. To rationalize.

And so what I have a sense,

I think what you said about executives and leaders

is absolutely right, but there’s the early days.

The early days of madness and passion.

For sure.

Then I feel like emphasizing sleep,

thinking about sleep is giving yourself a way out

from the fact that those early days,

especially, can be suffering.

As long, it’s not sustainable.

You know, it’s not sustainable.

Sure, if you’re investing all that energy in something

at the beginning to get it up and running,

then at some point you’re gonna have to slow down.

Or your body will slow you down for you.

Like, you can choose or your body can choose.

I mean.

So, okay, so you don’t think, from my perspective,

it feels like people have gotten a little bit soft.

But you’re saying, no.

I think that there seems evidence

that working harder and later have taken a back seat.

I’ve taken a back seat.

I think we have to be careful with broad generalizations.

But I think if you go into the workplace,

there are people who would complain

that more people now than before,

you know, look at their watches and say,

oops, five o clock, goodbye.


Now, is that a problem with the people?

You’re saying it’s the people giving themselves excuses

and people who don’t work hard.

Or is it the organizations aren’t giving them something

to believe in, something to be passionate about?

We can’t manufacture passion.

You can’t just tell someone, be passionate.

You know, that’s not how it works.

Passion’s an output, not an input.

Like if I believe in something

and I wanna contribute all that energy to do it,

we call that passion.

You know, working hard for something we love is passion.

Working hard for something we don’t care about

is called stress.

But we’re working hard either way.

So I think the organizations bear some accountability

and our leaders bear some accountability,

which is if they’re not offering a sense of purpose,

if they’re not offering us a sense of cause,

if they’re not telling us that our work is worth more

than simply the money it makes,

then yeah, I’m gonna come at five o clock

because I don’t really care about making you money.

Remember, we live in a world right now

where a lot of people, rather a few people,

are getting rich on the hard work of others.

And so I think when people look up and say,

well, why would I do that?

I’ll just, if you’re not gonna look after me

and then you’re gonna lay me off at the end of the year

because you missed your arbitrary projections,

you know, you’re gonna lay me off

because you missed your arbitrary projections,

then why would I offer my hard work and loyalty to you?

So I think, I don’t think we can immediately blame people

for going soft.

I think we can blame leaders for their inability

or failure to offer their people something bigger

than making a product or making money.

Yeah, so that’s brilliant.

And start with why, leaders eat less, your books.

You basically talk about what it takes to be a good leader.

And so some of the blame should go on the leader,

but how much of it is on finding your passion?

How much is it on the individual?

And allowing yourself to pursue that passion,

pushing yourself to your limits,

to really take concrete steps

along your path towards that passion.

Yeah, there’s mutual responsibility.

There’s mutual accountability.

I mean, we’re responsible as individuals

to find the organizations and find the leaders

that inspire us.

And organizations are responsible for maintaining

that flame and giving people who believe

what they believed, you know, a chance to contribute.

Sort of to linger on it,

have you by chance seen the movie Whiplash?


Again, maybe I’m romanticizing suffering.

Again. It’s the Russian in you.

It’s the Russian. Yeah.

The Russians love suffering.

But for people who haven’t seen,

the movie Whiplash has a drum instructor

that pushes the drum musician to his limits

to bring out the best in him.

And there’s a toxic nature to it.

There’s suffering in it.

Like you’ve worked with a lot of great leaders,

a lot of great individuals.

So is that toxic relationship as toxic

as it appears in the movie?

Or is that fundamental?

I’ve seen that relationship,

especially in the past with Olympic athletes,

especially in athletics, extreme performers

seem to do wonders.

It does wonders for me.

There’s some of my best relationships,

now I’m not representative of everyone certainly,

but some of my best relationships for mentee and mentor

have been toxic from an external perspective.

What do you make of that movie?

What do you make of that kind of relationship?

That’s not my favorite movie.

Okay, so you don’t think that’s a healthy,

you don’t think that kind of relationship

is a great example of a great leader?

No, I think it’s a short term strategy.

I mean, short term.

I mean, look, being hard on someone

is not the same as toxicity.

If you go to the Marine Corps,

a drill instructor will be very hard on their Marines.

And then, but still, even on the last day of bootcamp,

they’ll take their hat off and they’ll become a human.

But of all the drill instructors,

you know, the three or four main drill instructors

assigned to a group of recruits,

the one that they all want the respect of

is the one that’s the hardest on them.

That’s true.

And you hear, you know,

there’s plenty of stories of people

who want to earn the respect of a hard parent

or a hard teacher.

But fundamental, that parent, that teacher,

that drill instructor has to believe in that person,

has to see potential in them.

It’s not a formula,

which is if I’m hard on people, they’ll do well,

which is there has to still be love.

It has to be done with absolute love.

And it has to be done responsibly.

I mean, some people can take

a little more pressure than others,

but it’s not, I think it’s irresponsible

to think of it as a formula

that if I’m just toxic at people, they will do well.

It depends on their personalities.

First of all, it works for some, but not all.

And second of all, it can’t be done willy nilly.

It has to still be done with care and love.

And sometimes you can get equal or better results

without all of the toxicity.

So one of the, I guess toxicity on my part

was a really bad word to use,

but if we talk about what makes a good leader

and just look at an example in particular,

looking at Elon Musk,

he’s known to push people to their limits

in a way that I think really challenges people

in a way they’ve never been challenged before

to do the impossible.

But it can really break people.

And jobs was hard and Amazon is hard.

But the thing that’s important is none of them lie about it.

People ask me about Amazon all the time.

Like Jeff Bezos never lied about it.

Even the ones who like Amazon don’t last

more than a couple of years before they burn out.

But when we’re honest about the culture,

then it gives people the opportunity

who like to work in that kind of culture

to choose to work in that kind of culture,

as opposed to pretending and saying,

oh no, this is all, it’s all lovey lovey here.

And then you show up and it’s the furthest thing from it.

So, I mean, I think the reputations

of putting a lot of pressure on people to,

jobs was not an easy man to work for.

He pushed people, but everyone who worked there

was given the space to create and do things

that they would not have been able to do anywhere else

and work at a level that they didn’t work anywhere else.

And jobs didn’t have all the answers.

I mean, he pushed his people to come up with answers.

He wasn’t just looking for people to execute his ideas.

And people did, people accomplished more

than they thought they were capable of, which is wonderful.

How do you, you’re talking about the infinite game

and not thinking about too short term.

And yet you see some of the most brilliant people

in the world being pushed by Elam us

to accomplish some of the most incredible things.

When we’re talking about autopilot,

when we’re talking about some of the hardware engineering,

and they do some of the best work of their life

and then leave.

How do you balance that in terms of what it takes

to be a good leader,

what it takes to accomplish great things in your life?

So I think there’s a difference between someone

who can get a lot out of people in the short term

and building an organization

that can sustain beyond any individual.

There’s a difference.

When you say beyond any individual,

you mean beyond like if the leader dies.


Like could Tesla continue to do what it’s doing

without Elon Musk?

And you’re perhaps implying,

which is a very interesting question that it cannot.

I don’t know.

You know, the argument you’re making

of this person who pushes everyone

arguably is not a repeatable model, right?

You know, is Apple the same without Steve Jobs

or is it slowly moving in a different direction?

Or has he established something

that could be resurrected with the right leader?

That was his dream, I think,

is to build an organization that lives on beyond them.

At least I remember reading that somewhere.

I think that’s what a lot of leaders desire,

which is to create something that was bigger than them.

You know, most businesses, most entrepreneurial ventures

could not pass the school bus test,

which is if the founder was hit by a school bus,

would everyone continue the business without them

or would they all just go find jobs?

And the vast majority of companies would fail that test,

you know, especially in the entrepreneurial world

that if you take the inspired visionary leader away,

the whole thing collapses.

So is that a business

or is that just a force of personality?

And a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, face that reality,

which is they have to be in every meeting,

make every decision, you know, come up with every idea,

because if they don’t, who will?

And the question is, is, well,

what have you done to build your bench?

Is it, it’s not, sometimes it’s ego,

the belief that only I can.

Sometimes it’s just things got,

did so well for so long that just forgot.

And sometimes it’s a failure

to build the training programs or hire the right people

that could replace you,

who are maybe smarter and better.

And browbeating people is only one strategy.

I don’t think it’s necessarily the only strategy,

nor is it always the best strategy.

I think people get to choose the cultures

they wanna work in.

This is why I think companies should be honest

about the kind of culture that they’ve created.

You know, I heard a story about Apple

where somebody came in from a big company,

you know, he had accomplished a lot

and his ego was very large

and he was going on about how he did this and he did that

and he did this and he did that.

And somebody from Apple said,

we don’t care what you’ve done.

The question is, what are you gonna do?

And that’s, you know, for somebody who wants to be pushed,

that’s the place you go because you choose to be pushed.

Now, we all wanna be pushed to some degree,

you know, anybody who wants to, you know,

accomplish anything in this world

wants to be pushed to some degree,

whether it’s through self pressure or external pressure

or, you know, public pressure, whatever it is.

But I think this whole idea of one size fits all

is a false narrative of how leadership works,

but what all leadership requires is creating an environment

in which people can work at their natural best.

But you have a sense that it’s possible

to create a business where it lives on beyond you.

So if we look at now,

if we just look at this current moment,

I just recently talked to Jack Dorsey, CEO of Twitter,

and he’s under a lot of pressure now.

I don’t know if you’re aware of the news

that he’s being pushed out as a potential CEO of Twitter

because he’s the CEO already

of an incredibly successful company

plus he wants to go to Africa to live a few months in Africa

to connect with the world that’s outside of the Silicon Valley

and sort of, there’s this idea,

well, can Twitter live without Jack?

We’ll find out.

But you have a general, as a student of great leadership,

you have a general sense that it’s possible.

Yeah, of course it’s possible.

I mean, what Bill Gates built with Microsoft

may not have survived Steve Ballmer

if the company weren’t so rich,

but Sachin Ardala is putting it back on track again.

It’s become a visionary company again.

It’s attracting great talent again.

It went through a period

where they couldn’t get the best talent

and the best talent was leaving.

Now people wanna work for Microsoft again.

Well, that’s not because of pressure.

Ballmer put more pressure on people

mainly to hit numbers than anything else.

That didn’t work.

Yes. Right?

And so the question is,

what kind of pressure are we putting on people?

We’re putting on pressure people to hit numbers

or hit arbitrary deadlines,

or we’re putting on pressure on people

because we believe that they can do better work.

And the work that we’re trying to do

is to advance a vision that’s bigger than all of us.

And if you’re gonna put pressure on people,

it better be for the right reason.

Like if you’re gonna put pressure on me,

it better be for a worthwhile reason.

If it’s just to hit a goal,

if it’s just to hit some arbitrary date

or some arbitrary number or make a stock price

hit some target, you can keep it, I’m outta here.

But if you wanna put pressure on me

because we are brothers and sisters in arms

working to advance a cause bigger than ourselves,

that we believe whatever we’re gonna build

will significantly contribute

to the greater good of society,

then go ahead, I’ll take the pressure.

And if you look at the Apples

and if you look at the Elon Musk’s,

the Jobs and the Elon Musk,

they fundamentally believed that what they were doing

would improve society.

And it was for the good of humankind.

And so the pressure, in other words,

what they were doing was more important,

more valuable than any individual on the team.

And so the pressure they put on people

served a greater good.

And so we looked to the left

and we looked to the right to each other and said,

we’re in this together.

We accept this, we want this.

But if it’s just pressure to hit a number

or make the widget move a little faster,

that’s soul sucking.

That’s not passion, that’s stress.

And I think a lot of leaders confuse

that making people work hard

is not what makes them passionate.

Giving to them something to believe in

and work on is what drives passion.

And when you have that, then turning up the pressure

only brings people together,

drives them further.

If done the right way.

Speaking of pressure,

I’m gonna give you 90 seconds to answer the last question,

which is if I told you that tomorrow

was your last day to live,

we talked about mortality,

sunrise to sunset, can you tell me,

can you take me through the day?

What do you think that day would involve?

You can’t spend it with your family,

I told you as well.

I would probably want to fill all of my senses

with things that excite my senses.

I’d want to look at beautiful art.

I’d want to listen to beautiful music.

I’d want to taste incredible food.

I’d want to smell amazing tastes.

I’d want to touch something that’s beautiful to touch.

I’d want all of my senses to just be consumed

with things that I find beautiful.

And you talked about this idea of

we don’t do it often these days,

of just listening to music, turning off all the devices

and actually taking in and listening to music.

So as an addendum,

if we were to talk about music,

what song would you be blasting

on this last day you’re alive?

Is it Led Zeppelin?

What are we talking about?

That I love.

No, no.

There’s probably gonna be a Beatles song in there.

There’ll definitely be some Beethoven in there.

The classics.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, thank you so much for talking today.

Thank you for making time for it.

Under pressure, we made it happen.

It was great.

Thanks for listening to this conversation

with Simon Sinek.

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And now let me leave you with some words from Simon Sinek.

There are only two ways to influence human behavior.

You can manipulate it or you can inspire it.

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

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