Lex Fridman Podcast - #366 - Shannon Curry: Johnny Depp & Amber Heard Trial, Marriage, Dating & Love

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The following is a conversation with Shannon Curry, a clinical and forensic psychologist who conducts research, therapy, and psychological evaluations pertaining to trauma, violence, and relationships.

She received worldwide attention in April of last year by giving a lengthy televised testimony on her psychological evaluation of Amber Heard during the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard trial.

I found her testimony to be an eloquent description of complex psychological concepts and evaluation procedures.

So, I reached out for a chat.

In person, she was brilliant, funny, thoughtful, and truly kind.

I really, really enjoyed this conversation.

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I learned a lot from her testimony, from our on-and-off-the-mic conversations, from her interviews.

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And now, dear friends, here’s Shannon Curry.

Charles Bukowski said that love is a fog

that burns away with the first daylight of reality.

I love that quote.

Do you think romantic love fades away in this way?

Bukowski.

Does it have to fade?

The truth is that you have all of these chemicals pumping through your body.

You’re essentially high on heroin in the beginning of a romance.

And you’re going to have these rose-colored glasses on.

Everything your partner does is magical.

But really, it’s the novelty.

It’s just like going on a vacation.

You’re fully present.

You’re just attuned to the magic of another human being, moment to moment.

And then on top of that, you’re just flooded with dopamine.

So you’re high on drugs.

And we can’t go on like that.

You will die if you are using these kinds of chemicals all the time, all day long.

So eventually, our bodies are sort of made to dial it down.

We’ve made it.

I mean, we’re evolutionary beings.

We are doing the same thing we did 200,000 years ago

to find a mate, procreate, spend enough time with each other

that we have sex a whole bunch of times and make babies.

Now, we’ve changed the rules of the game.

We’re living almost until we’re 100 years old in some cases.

We’re making these marriage commitments that last half a century.

And we’re expecting it to be all because of love.

And we’re signing these contracts based on how we feel when we’re high on these drugs.

So the reality is we know based on the reason—

And I’m also talking about certain Western civilizations here

because as you know, there are arranged marriages.

And a lot of times, those marriages, if we’re looking at longevity,

are actually way more satisfied than people who are marrying for love,

which logically makes sense.

If you’re making a decision based on a feeling

that is basically based on endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin,

I wouldn’t sign a contract just because of a feeling necessarily for 50 years.

Whereas an arranged marriage, if you have your elders kind of deciding for you

that this partner has a bunch of traits that you’re going to appreciate more and more over time,

I think there’s some wisdom there.

So you don’t think that feeling could be a foundation for a 50-year relationship?

Well, I don’t think that specific feeling you’re having based on drugs

is going to be the same feeling you have 20, 30, 40 years down the line.

If you’re going to wake up and turn to your partner when you’re 70 and think,

oh my god, I’m so glad you’re hot, you are so hot,

then sure, marry for hotness.

But if you’ve been through life a little bit,

and I think most people who are on a second marriage know,

shit happens in life.

It is hard.

You’re going to have maybe a kid with special needs

or your dad gets dementia or you get diagnosed with cancer.

Who are you going to want to come home to?

Who is going to hold you when you are sobbing on the floor

and tell you we’re going to get through it together?

Who’s going to know the names of your kid’s special ed teacher

and the process for getting a 504 plan?

Or is it going to be you on your own?

I think those things matter.

But doesn’t that hotness,

don’t those drugs kind of solidify into a deeper appreciation of the other person,

into something you call beauty?

Yes.

They can.

But isn’t that the same thing?

When you notice the beauty of another human being,

aren’t you high on drugs still?

You’re making it sound like there’s a brief rock star period

of going on heroin and then it’s over.

But can’t you be on heroin your whole life?

I have some good news.

Microdosing?

I have some good news.

That was something,

I think one of the reasons I got into studying relationships

was because I wanted that.

I’m a scientist,

but I also love art,

and I love writing,

and I love literature.

I wanted to know that true love could be real.

But as a scientist,

I am cynical.

I just need some data.

So I practice a type of therapy called the Gottman Method.

And I love that because it tends to be,

well, it is one of the most evidence-based therapies we have

based on John and Julie Gottman,

who have been researching relationships for now about 50 years.

And this therapy happens to be for couples.

They found that you absolutely can make longevity work in a relationship.

You can build.

You are not just settling for companionship,

but you can have passion and intimacy and growing love and appreciation.

But there is a blueprint,

a set of skills that we were never given.

We’re not taught it in school.

We changed the rules of the game,

and we haven’t learned the rules yet.

And the Gottman Method for couples therapy kind of gives you a few guidelines,

the rules for longevity in a relationship.

Yeah, they did a beautiful job at taking these findings they had

through decades of research,

quantifying it,

and then codifying it into a therapy method.

It’s really skills-based.

I tell couples when they’re starting out with me

that they’re essentially going to be starting a class.

So what’s the five-to-one golden rule?

What I read is there’s a kind of balance you can achieve

of how many interactions you have in a relationship

that are positive versus negative.

And I think that’s what the five-to-one means.

But basically, there should be kind of an empirical.

If you just look back over a month,

how many of the interactions were positive?

Or the day.

Or the day.

Right?

So the idea of this ratio,

well, it’s not an idea.

It was a finding.

It is a research finding that the Gottmans got

after looking at thousands of couples

and codifying these interactions that they were observing.

Couples that tend to be satisfied in their relationships,

that are happier, they have better health, et cetera,

they are having approximately five positive interactions

to each negative.

And I want to be clear about what I’m defining

as positive and negative here.

So this doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re—

these don’t need to be big, sweeping, romantic gestures,

buying flowers, having sex.

These are things like paying attention

to what we call your partner’s bids.

We make these bids for affection, for connection,

all the time in our relationships,

not just with our partners, but with our friends,

our coworkers.

And we may not even know what our style of bid is,

but if you see them on a sheet,

you can pretty quickly identify them.

Bids could be wanting to show your partner

or tell your partner something and have them be proud of you.

It could be wanting to go buy groceries with your partner,

doing things together.

Hey, you want to come with me?

It could be telling a joke and hoping that your wife

looks up from her email on the computer and acknowledges it.

If she laughs, then you’ve got a positive.

But if I don’t even look up, that’s a negative, right?

So it’s not necessarily that I’m calling my husband an asshole.

It’s just, am I connecting with him?

Am I meeting those bids for connection?

And vice versa.

But do those also give you a guide of how you should behave?

Well, I think what’s really important

is actually asking your partner

or paying attention to what your partner’s bids are,

because what matters to Ty, my husband,

may not matter to you.

For instance, I mean, Ty’s bar is so low with me.

I thank God for him.

In terms of what defines a positive interaction?

Right.

He just wants me to ask him if he wants a water

when I get up to get myself one.

Just be a basic, decent, considerate person

is all he asks of me.

Whereas mine might be sort of like,

stay up later with me, watch a show,

go to bed at the same time as me,

or know about the people in my life,

that sort of a thing.

I should highlight this, and I hope hopefully it’s okay,

that you were running a little bit late,

and you sent me this text,

which people do really rarely,

and there’s a subtle act of kindness within that text.

The text you sent was that I just decreased

the amount of stress in your life or something like this

by saying it’s cool.

But that means that you’re signaling

that you were stressed because you care enough

to be there on time.

And that made me feel really special.

I was like, oh.

You’re a brilliant guy.

People don’t often, don’t always do that,

because that puts you also, that makes you vulnerable.

Vulnerable.

I actually thought that after I sent it,

but I feel that most of the day.

Any interaction, like, oh God.

I just expose myself.

But absolutely, I was excited to be here,

and I didn’t want you to think that I didn’t care.

I think being a therapist has shown me

that it really, it’s so lucky to be in that position,

because you meet people that you would have thought

are cooler than you or smarter than you

or just somehow impervious to life,

and you realize that we are all in it together.

We all want to be cared about and liked.

We all want to be liked as a baseline.

Some people will say they don’t care,

but everybody does.

It’s human.

And I have gotten much better being a therapist,

much more comfortable showing caring,

showing love and genuineness and vulnerability

than I think I ever would have been otherwise.

And that kind of vulnerability is what’s required

to do a positive interaction in a relationship?

I think so.

And people have different levels of comfort, right?

But as long as it’s working for both partners,

and typically you have to communicate

to figure out what your partner,

what makes your partner feel cared about.

However, you might be working, for instance,

with an older couple,

and I have a couple that’s perfectly happy,

and they sort of have a system.

It works for them.

If there’s some sort of a rupture,

if they get in some sort of a disagreement,

they don’t talk it out.

She might go to the store, run an errand,

do a little shopping.

He’ll work in the wood shop,

and then they’ll come back.

And there is a repair attempt, though,

but maybe she’ll say,

hey, do you want to have dinner?

I made your favorite dinner.

Or he’ll say, hey, I recorded your favorite show.

You want to watch it tonight?

So they don’t need to process it,

but there is an understanding between them

that we’re still in this together.

We care about each other.

We care about each other,

and there’s a repair attempt.

Most people need to be able to process it verbally

and talk about what happened,

but not all.

So for most people,

if there’s a conflict,

you should talk about it and resolve it

and repair it

versus just put it behind you?

I don’t want to say should.

I guess it depends on the couple.

Everybody processes emotions differently.

Everybody handles emotional expression differently.

I mean, I have couples

where I have one person in the partnership

who has autism and the other doesn’t,

and so they’re obviously going to have different ways

of communicating or processing what happened.

We all have different perspectives.

It really depends on

what makes a person feel like it’s been repaired.

What makes a person feel understood?

Does that need to be verbal?

Or in the case of that older couple I have

where they know they understand one another

because there’s a gentleness toward one another after.

What are some common ways relationships fail

that you’ve observed in all the therapy you’ve done?

Well, the Gaumans identified

what they call the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Okay, what are the Four Horsemen?

I mean, I could just keep it simple

and go off their research.

So those are four different behaviors

that they identify in couples

or that you can identify in couples

that are really highly predictive of a divorce,

some more than others,

but I’ll start with the lower ones.

So one thing that we…

By the way, actually, we all do these things.

These would be in that five-to-one ratio.

You’d want to stay away from some of these.

These are the ones.

So as they pile up,

now that ratio is going to get imbalanced,

and then you are headed for a split, okay?

So the first is criticism.

So criticism is when we have a complaint.

Complaints are normal,

but instead of owning our own problems,

our own feelings,

we assume that our perspective

is the only valid, accurate perspective,

and so we take it upon ourselves

to tell our partner what is wrong with them, okay?

So there’s essentially no real belief

that they might have a valid perspective, too.

So this could look like,

you never help me out with the house,

or even you’re so lazy,

like, can’t I just get you for five seconds

to help with the kids or something like that?

And then what happens is horseman number two,

defensiveness.

So not everybody is defensive

just because they were criticized.

Some people just are more prone to defensiveness than others.

None of us really like admitting our faults,

so it’s pretty natural.

But defensiveness is essentially making excuses or worse,

turning it around on your partner,

not accepting any responsibility

and definitely not validating what they’re feeling.

Now, if you get criticized enough

or if you get really flooded,

flooding is what happens when our heart rate goes up

kind of around 100 beats per minute.

Our frontal lobe shuts down.

That’s our thoughtful brain, our logical brain,

and our reptilian kind of hindbrain

takes over our thinking,

and we just go into fight or flight in a way.

We just want to annihilate our partner

instead of say anything

that would be helpful to the relationship.

So if you’re getting flooded,

you could do a couple things.

You could get super critical.

You could get contemptuous,

which I’ll talk about in a second.

It’s the last horseman.

Or you do the third horseman, which is stonewalling.

And in their research,

the Gottmans found that men

are actually more likely to stonewall.

I also am someone who stonewalls.

But it’s where you just sort of

disconnect from the conversation.

You shut down.

You turn away.

You can physically even turn away,

kind of arms crossed,

but you’re shut off.

And stonewalling happens

usually because you get flooded.

You feel like you can’t win.

You don’t know what to do to make the situation better.

It feels pretty hopeless,

and talking feels unproductive.

So you can see how in a typical heterosexual relationship,

the gender dynamic,

we know that women tend to use criticism more often

because they’re the ones that typically raise issues verbally.

And then if men are feeling more criticized,

that they tend to stonewall.

And it becomes this vicious cycle of then more criticism,

but the criticism is really just a plea to be loved

and get your partner to show you they care.

And then the man tends to feel like he can’t do anything right.

This isn’t even productive.

If I say anything, I’m just going to make it worse.

And they don’t have any real…

You haven’t given them a specific need, a solution,

something they can do to shine for you.

So they turn away.

And where does the contempt come in?

All right.

So contempt is criticism on steroids.

This is what John Gottman calls sulfuric acid for love.

Nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt.

Contempt is when you are looking at your partner

from a superior position.

So you are eye-rolling.

You are name-calling.

There’s a mockery, mocking, even physical mockery,

imitating them, imitating their voice.

Contempt is meant to just take the legs out from your partner,

make them feel pathetic, ridiculous.

And it can be abusive.

But most people have engaged in contempt

at some point in their relationship.

Lower level would be sort of the eye-rolling.

But that is the biggest predictor of a split.

If you allow yourself to think, yeah,

that mockery or contempt just a little bit,

it’s like this weird slippery slope.

It sure is.

And the opposite is true,

where I just look at a person and think,

wow, isn’t that the most wonderful creature

I’ve ever seen in my life?

I just think that.

And you notice the little details about who they are.

So I just observe them the way you observe

a weird peacock at a zoo or something like that.

Intention is powerful, isn’t it?

Yeah.

And it changes.

And you start to notice beautiful things

and then let the things that annoy you.

Yes.

Like just-

You’re exactly right.

You’re touching on some really important things.

So in relationships,

we actually know that wearing rose-colored glasses

is important.

It’s healthy.

We need it.

And it’s a choice you’re making, right?

So there is a saying that getting married

is just choosing one person’s faults over another.

And the reality is that we may become infatuated

with somebody else as human beings.

Love is an emotion.

Attraction is an emotion.

And as you go through life,

even if you’re in a committed relationship,

you might see beauty in another.

And that person who is novel might seem attractive to you.

But if you can remember that they, too,

have a set of problems that you would be marrying,

it really helps you to see the beauty in your partner again

and recognize all of their incredible strengths

and all the ways we meld with a person

and become our own family,

almost become-

I mean, our lives intertwine and we grow those oak trees.

By the way,

there’s a line I read somewhere

that when you’re wearing rose-colored glasses,

all the red flags look just like flags.

I love that.

It’s a good line.

I love that.

So you think that humans are fundamentally-

All of us are fundamentally flawed or have flaws.

They’re unique flaws.

Basically, relationships is just a way

to figure out how the two can fit together.

Right, and we’re different.

So no matter what,

we’re going to have differences.

We are raised differently than our partner.

We have different stories,

different experiences that shaped our value systems,

especially when it comes to the big ones

like parenting, love, money,

these principles that are based in our history.

We’re going to have differences.

So is this a set of differences

you can accept from somebody and work with?

Do the benefits and do their strengths,

do they make it worth it?

Or are they deal-breaker differences?

Tricky question.

But in the couples you’ve worked with,

is there like the feminine and the masculine,

is there different dynamics that come into play

like dominant, submissive?

Is it like a dance

where it just changes from minute to minute?

Is there dynamics that you observe

that both limit and enable successful relationships?

Yes, so there are,

if we’re talking about masculine, feminine,

then how also we could get into,

are we talking about actual gender, identified gender,

or are we just talking about these traits?

Because like I said,

ice stone wall, which is typically in couples,

something that is more associated with straight men,

but that’s my style of coping when I get overwhelmed.

That is not tied to any sort of success

or non-success of a relationship,

but what we do know is that gay couples,

so lesbians and gay men,

tend to be gentler with one another

when they are having conflict discussions.

So that’s actually been identified in the research

and it’s something I’ve witnessed,

and it’s just fascinating.

So with my straight couples,

I’ll be going through one of these,

if we’re processing a conflict that occurred,

I’ll be going through the sheet,

and it’s very, very structured

because you don’t want couples doing more damage

when they’re there with you.

You want them practicing skills

that protect them from criticism,

that protect them from contempt.

And when I’m working with a straight couple,

I am like a referee

or sometimes I’ll relate it to being like a ski coach

and keeping people on a bunny hill,

and you let them make like two turns

and then you stop them,

and you meet up again

because you don’t want them to veer off.

With straight couples,

you are doing very short turns

before you need to kind of intervene and rescaffold.

I had a lesbian couple recently

and they were so lovely with each other,

they skipped like seven steps

to the advanced final portion

where they were already coming up with solutions

and suggesting things

that they might be able to do differently next time

to make it better for their partner.

They were asking each other questions

about how their partner felt with no agenda,

no attempt to sort of be like,

well, do you think you’re feeling that way because,

which straight couples do all the time.

You just see this humility and openness.

It’s lovely.

Yeah, it’s lovely,

but I wonder if maybe watching too many Hollywood films,

if some of the drama,

some of the tension

is required for a passionate lifelong romance.

No, it’s not.

And that’s great news.

So we actually know

that the closer you feel to your partner,

so if, I mean, you’ve talked a lot about beauty

and you can ignite that beauty,

that interest, right?

So when you’re falling in love,

it’s usually that a person is sort of a mystery to you

and you’re uncovering these layers

that you find really appealing.

There are continual layers

that you can uncover with your partner over time.

I don’t think we realize that.

I think we get complacent

and we think we’ve had every conversation imaginable.

What else are they going to do to surprise me?

But we don’t know the questions to be asking.

One of my favorite questions,

I like turning these conversations kind of into a quiz

because I get bored easily.

So rather than just asking an open-ended question,

there’s a way you can do this with your partner

where it’s sort of like the dating game.

Like, what is my as-of-yet fondest

but unrealized life dream?

And see if your partner knows.

You might not even know.

They might know you better than you know yourself.

That in and of itself is a beautiful reminder

of the relationship and how special it is.

But then also when they say it

or when you realize or have to think critically,

like, what is my husband’s as-of-yet

unrealized but fondest life dream?

And then you can talk about it.

You just, I don’t know,

you just kind of transcend into this new area

and you feel tight again.

You feel like, you feel close.

Well, you really talk to each other.

Like, I’ve recorded

and without intending to publish,

a podcast like this with microphones,

with friends, with people close to me

because it’s literally that.

You get to ask questions

like as if it’s an interview.

Right.

And we don’t do that with each other.

That’s exactly it.

The way you’re talking with me.

Yeah.

Sit down with your partner.

Have that conversation.

Like years later.

Right.

Show interest.

Actually be curious.

See what they surprise you with.

And actually what you learn

is you don’t know the answers to most of these questions.

100%.

Exactly.

Like, what’s your favorite movie from the 80s?

You might not know the answer to that.

It’s like those first date questions or whatever.

Or what’s your favorite movie this year and why?

And why, yeah.

It’s fascinating.

It is.

It’s hard to do that

because I think that you’ll probably be offended at first

how little the other person knows.

So I think you have to work through that.

You know,

I actually find that there’s this rekindling

because partners are shocked

that their partner does know so much about them.

Especially if they’ve been feeling dissatisfied

or disconnected.

It’s a reminder of all the good that’s still there.

I know we’ve said some of those things,

but what’s on the opposite side?

What’s the key to a successful relationship?

What are the things you see time and time again

that you designate that they’re on a good path?

Yeah.

There’s a real attunement, honestly.

It’s sort of an us against the world feeling.

Neither partner is going to talk shit on the other.

There’s a loyalty.

They handle each other in the relationship with care.

You can tell that they’ve worked some things.

To me,

it usually indicates that these are some people

who have figured they’ve had to work some things out.

They know that this is delicate.

They know that you’re on thin ice.

You take a wrong step

and you can be back in a tough place in your relationship.

Or you treat it with care and it can be amazing.

So they’re careful with one another.

They give each other compliments.

They are considerate.

So you’ll see he’ll bring the car around for her

because it’s raining

or she’ll bring him home some takeout.

She’ll order for him too at the restaurant.

They keep each other in each other’s minds.

But that us against the world thing,

that definitely is there.

100%.

You’ve seen that, right?

Yeah, you’ve seen it.

And you’ve seen it like…

I like it when couples have been together for a long time

and when one is talking,

the other one looks at them.

If you don’t do that,

that’s not a bad sign,

but it’s a good sign when you do that.

Yes.

And I think it’s actually a really good exercise to do

because I enjoy when I see in others.

It’s a way to show

that you don’t take them for granted

and that you still find them

this mysterious, wonderful creature to observe.

I think too often,

we have that with our parents,

we have that with people close to us.

You think, yeah, I’ve heard what they’re about to say.

I know, I know.

You can complete their sentences.

Take them for granted.

And then if you just look at them and say,

wow, this is the most brilliant person

I’ve ever seen in my life.

I can’t just appreciate every word that comes out of them

and look at them in that way.

You actually begin to believe it

and you actually begin to see the beauty

of what they’re saying.

You are exactly right.

It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And it’s caring.

Yeah.

It’s very caring.

So that’s, I mean,

that’s I think the beauty of what the Gottman research

showed us, taught us, provided us,

is that we can do these things that become cyclic

and just keep growing this relationship,

making it stronger, more powerful, more loving.

You would never want to cut it down.

Well, you were talking about the sheet

for conflict processing.

What are we talking about?

So like a couple will come and say,

like there was this conflict and you put it on the table.

And then what does it mean to process it?

Well, so in that Gottman method of therapy,

there are all these different,

I mean, hundreds of different interventions.

And based on what the issue is in that session,

you can decide the most appropriate intervention.

And so this is a specific intervention for

if it is a conflict that occurred

and there are different types of conflicts.

So this would be more like an incident.

It’s not a perpetual recurring problem,

which has actually a different intervention

where you kind of look at the underlying belief systems,

values, and the goal is not to solve that problem.

The goal in that situation is to actually just get

a better understanding of each other and your positions.

And just you stop seeing your partner as the adversary

and you start seeing them as a person who makes sense.

But if there’s been a specific event,

a specific fight, that’s just sort of situational,

but it’s left bad blood.

Things were said, or you didn’t feel understood.

This intervention I was talking about is one that you would

go through a series of steps where first you identify

the emotions that you were feeling.

Then you describe, play by play,

your movie, your perspective.

If your partner were looking through your eyes,

this is what they heard, saw, thought.

Then they saw this, then they heard this.

So you’re not saying, yeah, then you came in

and were yelling and acting crazy.

You’re saying, so then I saw you come in.

I heard you say, and I thought to myself,

well, great, now everything’s ruined, right?

So you’re showing them your movie.

Then they have to summarize the movie for you

and then vice versa.

Then there’s this step where each person

validates some part that they can understand.

Like based on what you saw, heard,

I can actually understand how you felt

one of those feelings that you said.

Then my favorite part is you rewind sort of the movie

from that day back through into childhood

and you land on a time, a memory,

when you felt a similar set of feelings.

This is like the most beautiful part ever

because let’s say the feeling was I felt misunderstood.

I felt misjudged, uncared about, unloved,

like you didn’t even like me.

I’ll say, when did you feel that way?

Land on a time and they’re like, my whole childhood.

My mom was always accusing me of doing things

I wasn’t doing and it would set me up

and my dad would come home.

He’d hear about it.

He would just believe her.

Then you have a partner climbing up on the couch

to give their partner a hug

while they’re sharing the story.

It’s beautiful and it changes the way

you interact in future disagreements.

So you have those moments.

Yeah, you can’t unlearn.

Now you know this about your partner.

You know what they’re sensitive to.

Yeah, again, you kind of see the beauty in the flaws then.

Right.

It all makes sense.

Yeah, it all kind of makes sense.

Yeah, so you maybe were in this dumpster dive

in your head of how your partner sucks

and all the things that are wrong with them

and it’s so hopeless.

Then you get this light shining through

and you realize, oh my God, of course

they would be sensitive to that.

Suddenly, it’s not about all the ways

your partner is wrong and proving that they’re wrong.

It’s just, how can I in the future

make sure they do not feel this again?

I would never want this person I love

to misunderstand me and feel so unloved.

What do you, the early days of that,

what do you think about the whole dating,

modern dating process?

How do you find a partner that you can

stay with for the rest of your life?

We are absolutely doing it wrong,

but there is a way you can do it.

I am such a fan of the psychologist Tai Tashiro.

I adore him.

He is brilliant.

He is lovely.

He is also very humble.

Just a wonderful salt-of-the-earth guy.

I’m going to tell you a very true story here.

I was in a bad relationship

and I was at a psychology conference

with my partner at the time.

We were both at this conference

and we were sitting in a lecture hall

there for Tai Tashiro to do his talk that day

on his phenomenal research

on relationship satisfaction and dating.

I was sitting next to him and we’d been,

it was just always unpleasant on trips.

There were always fights.

We’re sitting there and Tai Tashiro

starts talking about his research

and how he found that most people

are signing this agreement,

getting married,

and doing it based on the love endorphins.

Really only about 35% of anybody

who’s married is actually happy.

He said, so then,

It’s a pretty low number.

Exactly.

Here’s what I love about Tai Tashiro

is he didn’t stop there.

He wanted to know what those people

who were happy

had in common.

Then same thing with the people

who were unhappy.

He found a couple fascinating patterns.

The couples who were happy

tended to rate their partners

higher in three different traits.

I love talking about this

because if you are somebody

who can follow instructions,

you can find this very easily.

Those three traits tend to be

conscientiousness,

and I love the word conscientiousness

because it’s not just kindness.

Kindness is a good way to think of it,

but you can be kind

and kind of be a pushover

and that’s not attractive.

Conscientiousness is smart,

attentive.

It’s somebody who reads

into a text message and thinks,

wow, she was making herself

very vulnerable there.

That’s conscientiousness.

I like how you’re just

doing a compliment.

I appreciate it.

It’s true.

It’s a certain intelligence,

awareness, and attunement

and then on top of that,

conscientiousness is motivated.

You can’t be on your ass all day

and be conscientious

because then you can’t

meet the needs that you anticipate

about the person.

Conscientious is that guy

who drives the car around

in the rainstorm

so his wife’s hair doesn’t get met.

It’s my husband who

checks my alarm for me every morning

because he knows I’m terrible

at time management

and he makes sure that I

set it a reasonable amount of time

before my first meeting

and not the 20 minutes

I think I need.

Then he’ll come wake me up

with a cup of coffee.

That is ultimate conscientiousness.

It is true.

I will tell you,

as somebody who’s with

a conscientious partner,

your love increases over time

as you continue to feel grateful

and admiring of that person.

The second one,

you want somebody who is

low in a big five personality trait

called neuroticism.

You want somebody

emotionally stable in a way.

Now this doesn’t mean

you can’t have somebody

who doesn’t get the blues

or struggle with

mental health issues.

Trust me, Ty is with somebody

who, you know,

I’m all over the place.

But you want somebody

who kind of owns their shit

and isn’t going to just

be emotionally unstable

all over.

You want somebody who

is generally happy

and has some life satisfaction.

Having a partner

who has serious

not mental health issues

but unmitigated

emotional distress

and instability

is really hard

on the partner.

And it’s really hard

on other family members

including children

if you have children.

So it’s just a predictor

of happiness.

There’s a certain threshold

of chaos

that if you exceed it

is going to be destructive

to a long term relationship.

That is a perfect description

about chaos.

Not the mystery chaos

you love as your

little poet brain.

I’m talking more like just

somebody who

there’s just no peace.

There’s no peace.

There’s a problem

with everything.

Everything becomes

more difficult.

Going to a party

is a chore.

You don’t know

if they’re going to have

a meltdown at the party

or how many complaints

about your friends

or

everything

is a problem.

So you want somebody

who has just some

resiliency

I think is a good term for it.

Some flexibility.

Some spice is okay

but not too much.

Right.

Flexibility, resiliency,

easy going.

The third

is

really interesting

I think.

So he found that

having a partner

with sort of moderate

adventurousness

not high adventurousness

actually leads to

greater satisfaction.

And the reason for that is

high adventurousness

equals novelty seeking.

Shiny new things.

And

so if you’re in a

monogamous relationship

if that is what’s

important to you

it’s going to be

very hard

for a partner

who is novelty seeking

to be faithful.

So that will cause

a lot of pain.

But also

novelty seeking people

tend to

always have new projects,

new interesting things

and so their attention

is drawn away

from the relationship.

And so

you can just feel pretty

neglected or unimportant.

By a little bit.

But you want a little

bit of adventurousness.

So you want your person

to be

sort of self-motivated

individuated

have their own interests

not completely dependent

on you.

But also I mean

low adventurousness

is not a bad thing.

Ultimately what you’re getting

with low to moderate

adventurousness

is that rock

that feeling of stability

that home.

And I made some references

earlier like

when you’re 70

and you turn to your partner

do you want him to be hot?

Or

you know

for instance my dad

has dementia right now.

And my husband

and me on the plane

we were all coming back

from a trip

and where we really saw

how severe it’s getting.

And

he just turned to me

he knew

how much pain I was in

even though I wasn’t

showing it.

And he said

I want you to know

that if it comes to a point

where we need to take care

of your dad

he needs to live with us

you don’t even need to ask.

It is

I am 100%

on board

and will help.

And

those are the things

that matter.

That home feeling.

And technically

that’s a trait

that’s usually

that sort of

my husband

caring so much

about family

and home

and taking care of things

that matter

those are things

that tend to be associated

with that low to moderate

adventurousness.

Somebody who really

cares about simple things

and family.

I wonder if those things

those three things

are something

you can work on.

You know

conscientiousness

you can probably

you can

proactively observe yourself

and

you know

do it more regularly.

Right.

Neuroticism

would be the hardest

one probably.

I think so.

Well

I mean

I was pretty neurotic

in my early 20s.

And when you wake up

to it

maybe you

if you’re self-aware

about it

maybe you’ll be able

to control it.

Yeah I think self-awareness

is key.

I think

that’s why I love

therapy so much.

I think life

is about growth

and our potential

for growth

and to

make our own lives

better

to make the lives

of others better

to serve others

and to help

others

and to

help

others

grow.

And the same

with

adventurousness

you can

I’m somebody

that’s pretty

pretty low

on adventure

but I keep

throwing myself

out there

just for the

extra adventure

so you can

grow in that way.

Yes and I am

high in

adventurousness

and I was not

really ready

to settle down.

I was married

earlier

and I was

trying to

connect myself

to high adventure

people so that

it brings me

out.

It’s like

they’re a horse

and I get to

ride them.

And that’s the

thing so high

adventure people

are attractive

they’re interesting

exciting but it

can be a world

of heartbreak

because you know

you’re only under

that spotlight

for a few minutes

and then they’re

on to the

next shiny thing.

Yeah but

heartbreak is

part of love

and part of a

relationship.

Okay so I’m

saying it’s

important but I

want to qualify

that everybody

has different

levels of sex

that are

satisfying to

them.

Sex can

definitely bond

you to your

partner.

Orgasms are

amazing they

de-stress us

they’re healthy

they I mean

you can have

an orgasm

and have a

lower level

of stress for

48 hours.

I think that’s

pretty incredible.

So having a

physical contact

with your

partner even a

20 second

hug with your

partner has

similar benefits

to an orgasm.

You’re going to

have a lower

stress level

you’re going to

feel immediately

close to your

partner you’re

going to get a

rush of oxytocin

which is going

to make you

feel happier

more grounded

throughout the

day.

So that’s a

20 second

hug you

extrapolate that

to sex and

so on.

Well there are

but it really

has more to do

it’s sort of like

remember I was

talking about

processing conflict

and what matters

is do people

feel like it’s

been resolved do

they feel like

there’s been a

repair not

necessarily how

they go about

doing it.

Same with

sex do does

each partner

feel sexually

satisfying?

So that could

be once a

month for

one couple

it could be

five times a

month.

I mean so

sex has a ton

of benefits but

it’s absence

isn’t necessarily

detrimental I

guess would be

the qualifier

depending on who

you are.

And I know

couples that use

sex as part of

the conflict

resolution process.

It’s hugely

effective for that

if it works

for both parties

all parties

not just both

all.

That’s true.

What do you

think about

infidelity?

What’s the

cause of

infidelity?

It’s

different for

everybody but

I mean even

earlier I was

saying with

adventurousness

like if

monogamy is

something you’re

doing.

I’ve seen

in my own

practice I’ve

seen the

entire range

of couples

who are

open about

having sexual

relationships with

other people

and fine with

it.

Couples who

want to be

fine with it

but find out

they have

multiple

romantic

relationships.

I’ve had

couples where

affairs are

tolerated and

not talked

about.

They’re not

enjoyed but

they are not

the type of

betrayal that

will destroy

the relationship.

Sort of a

understanding and

keep it out of

my face.

And then also

we won’t talk

about it.

So an affair

that happened

without getting

permission first

and as long

as the

partner is

not having

the affair

they typically

know.

They certainly

know that their

partner is

capable of

that.

They just

kind of know.

But they don’t

want it in

their face.

It would

become a

problem if

it was in

their face.

And

that’s

not

a good

thing.

It’s not

a good

thing.

As long

as certain

needs are

met and

everything else

is okay

at home

it’s just

one of those

things where

don’t ask

don’t tell.

That’s an

interesting point

because I had

a bunch of

arguments with

people.

I tend to

hang out

with,

especially in

the tech

sector,

people who

really value

like honesty

and radical

honesty.

Honesty can

be really

destructive.

Like

honesty is

also a

really complicated

thing to get

to the bottom

of because

what is

really honest?

Yes.

Like how do

I look in

this dress?

There’s a

million ways

to answer

that.

It can be

a cesspool

in my

mind.

If I’m

in a

bad place

or my

partner

is

really

unfounded

also.

It can

change on

a dime.

That’s

also not

actual honesty

to the

big picture

of how

you feel

about him.

I have

interacted

with a

few folks

who talk

about their

previous

sexual

partners,

for example,

on the

numbers of

sexual

partners

that

they

have.

I

think

it’s

important

to

be

honest

with

yourself

about

your

past.

You

don’t

really

talk about

it.

It’s

kind of

there in

this

amorphous

shape but

it’s

almost as

if you

were

starting

a new

relationship.

You

have to

figure

that out

about

each

other.

I’m

not

sure

that

honesty

is

always

important.

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talking

about

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prior

sexual

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it’s

important

to be

honest

with

yourself

about

your

past.

I

think

it’s

important

to be

honest

with

yourself

about

your

past.

I

think

it’s

important

to be

honest

with

yourself

about

your

past.

I

think

it’s

important

to be

honest

with

yourself

about

your

past.

I

think

it’s

important

to be

honest

with

yourself

about

your

past.

I

think

it’s

important

to be

honest

with

your

past.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we

in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your

own

risk.

I

think

that

should

all

we in

just

say

leave

at

your