The following is a conversation with Shannon Curry, a clinical and forensic psychologist who conducts research, therapy, and psychological evaluations pertaining to trauma, violence, and relationships.
She received worldwide attention in April of last year by giving a lengthy televised testimony on her psychological evaluation of Amber Heard during the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard trial.
I found her testimony to be an eloquent description of complex psychological concepts and evaluation procedures.
So, I reached out for a chat.
In person, she was brilliant, funny, thoughtful, and truly kind.
I really, really enjoyed this conversation.
Now, a quick few-second mention of each sponsor.
Check them out in the description. It’s the best way to support this podcast.
We got Factor for nutritious and delicious pre-made meals, Better Help for mental health, and House of Macadamias for delicious snacks.
Choose wisely, my friends.
Also, if you want to work with our team, we’re always hiring.
Go to lexfriedman.com slash hiring.
And now, on to the full ad reads.
As always, no ads in the middle.
I try to make these interesting, but if you must, skip them, friends.
Please still check out our sponsors.
I enjoy their stuff.
Maybe you will, too.
This show is brought to you by a new sponsor, a delicious sponsor called Factor.
It’s a ready-to-eat meal kit service that delivers nutritious and delicious meals straight to your door.
That phrase is a ridiculous phrase, but that is what it does.
So, I use it mostly for my kind of diet, but it supports all kinds of diets.
So, I’m mostly keto, and they have a bunch of amazing keto meals that center somewhere around like 500 calories.
First of all, they’re delicious in the variety they provide.
For the keto stuff, I keep the carbs low.
It’s really, really delicious, and the variety it provides makes it so that I don’t have to think about anything,
and I can enjoy, at an affordable price, deliciousness in my life that’s varied throughout the week, and I still keep to a low-carb count.
This is probably the most efficient, the most delicious, the most affordable way to have variety of foods on a keto diet,
and all kinds of other sort of quote-unquote smart diets that they have, protein plus whatever, vegan plus veggie, all that kind of stuff.
Get Factor and enjoy clean eating without the hassle.
Go to factormeals.com slash lex50, and use code lex50 to get 50% off your first box.
That’s factormeals.com slash lex50, and use code lex50.
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp, spelled H-E-L-P, help.
Obviously, this is a good episode for BetterHelp to sponsor because Shannon is a great psychologist.
I learned a lot from her testimony, from our on-and-off-the-mic conversations, from her interviews.
She’s so eloquent and clear in explaining some pretty complicated psychological concepts
because there’s a lot of gray area in how you identify the different disorders,
the different things that might be right and wrong with our minds,
and exploring that area, all the gray areas within that with clarity,
that the terms aid in understanding versus limit you by putting you into a particular kind of bucket,
and exploring all that kind of stuff, especially in the context of relationships.
She’s brilliant.
She, of course, does all kinds of therapy and reviews both for PTSD, for couples therapy, all that kind of stuff.
It just shows that lifelong, taking seriously your mental health with partners,
your mental health alone is really important through the act of talking it out with licensed professionals.
That’s what BetterHelp provides and makes super easy.
Check them out at betterhelp.com slash lex, and save on your first month.
That’s betterhelp.com slash lex.
This show is also brought to you by House of Macadamias,
a company that ships delicious, high-quality, and healthy macadamia nuts
and macadamia nut-based snacks directly to your door.
Small portions, healthy, delicious.
I don’t just eat them myself.
I also share it with guests, with friends when they come over.
I think it serves as a good icebreaker.
There’s something about human beings that just love connecting over some food.
That’s what I’ve been using it for.
But let’s be honest, actually, most of what I’ve been using it for is sitting on the couch,
feeling content, appreciating the seconds as they take by,
and putting some macadamia nuts in my mouth.
Yes, I said it, friends.
It’s the only nut rich in omega-7,
so there’s a bunch of reasons that it’s healthy for you.
There’s all other kinds of positive stuff I could say about it,
besides it being delicious, that it’s healthy.
But you should try it for yourself.
Go to houseofmacadamias.com slash flex to get 20% off your order for every order,
not just the first.
The listeners, that’s you, will also get a four-ounce bag of macadamias
when you order three or more boxes, as you should, of any macadamia product.
That’s houseofmacadamias.com slash flex.
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
And now, dear friends, here’s Shannon Curry.
Charles Bukowski said that love is a fog
that burns away with the first daylight of reality.
I love that quote.
Do you think romantic love fades away in this way?
Bukowski.
Does it have to fade?
The truth is that you have all of these chemicals pumping through your body.
You’re essentially high on heroin in the beginning of a romance.
And you’re going to have these rose-colored glasses on.
Everything your partner does is magical.
But really, it’s the novelty.
It’s just like going on a vacation.
You’re fully present.
You’re just attuned to the magic of another human being, moment to moment.
And then on top of that, you’re just flooded with dopamine.
So you’re high on drugs.
And we can’t go on like that.
You will die if you are using these kinds of chemicals all the time, all day long.
So eventually, our bodies are sort of made to dial it down.
We’ve made it.
I mean, we’re evolutionary beings.
We are doing the same thing we did 200,000 years ago
to find a mate, procreate, spend enough time with each other
that we have sex a whole bunch of times and make babies.
Now, we’ve changed the rules of the game.
We’re living almost until we’re 100 years old in some cases.
We’re making these marriage commitments that last half a century.
And we’re expecting it to be all because of love.
And we’re signing these contracts based on how we feel when we’re high on these drugs.
So the reality is we know based on the reason—
And I’m also talking about certain Western civilizations here
because as you know, there are arranged marriages.
And a lot of times, those marriages, if we’re looking at longevity,
are actually way more satisfied than people who are marrying for love,
which logically makes sense.
If you’re making a decision based on a feeling
that is basically based on endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin,
I wouldn’t sign a contract just because of a feeling necessarily for 50 years.
Whereas an arranged marriage, if you have your elders kind of deciding for you
that this partner has a bunch of traits that you’re going to appreciate more and more over time,
I think there’s some wisdom there.
So you don’t think that feeling could be a foundation for a 50-year relationship?
Well, I don’t think that specific feeling you’re having based on drugs
is going to be the same feeling you have 20, 30, 40 years down the line.
If you’re going to wake up and turn to your partner when you’re 70 and think,
oh my god, I’m so glad you’re hot, you are so hot,
then sure, marry for hotness.
But if you’ve been through life a little bit,
and I think most people who are on a second marriage know,
shit happens in life.
It is hard.
You’re going to have maybe a kid with special needs
or your dad gets dementia or you get diagnosed with cancer.
Who are you going to want to come home to?
Who is going to hold you when you are sobbing on the floor
and tell you we’re going to get through it together?
Who’s going to know the names of your kid’s special ed teacher
and the process for getting a 504 plan?
Or is it going to be you on your own?
I think those things matter.
But doesn’t that hotness,
don’t those drugs kind of solidify into a deeper appreciation of the other person,
into something you call beauty?
Yes.
They can.
But isn’t that the same thing?
When you notice the beauty of another human being,
aren’t you high on drugs still?
You’re making it sound like there’s a brief rock star period
of going on heroin and then it’s over.
But can’t you be on heroin your whole life?
I have some good news.
Microdosing?
I have some good news.
That was something,
I think one of the reasons I got into studying relationships
was because I wanted that.
I’m a scientist,
but I also love art,
and I love writing,
and I love literature.
I wanted to know that true love could be real.
But as a scientist,
I am cynical.
I just need some data.
So I practice a type of therapy called the Gottman Method.
And I love that because it tends to be,
well, it is one of the most evidence-based therapies we have
based on John and Julie Gottman,
who have been researching relationships for now about 50 years.
And this therapy happens to be for couples.
They found that you absolutely can make longevity work in a relationship.
You can build.
You are not just settling for companionship,
but you can have passion and intimacy and growing love and appreciation.
But there is a blueprint,
a set of skills that we were never given.
We’re not taught it in school.
We changed the rules of the game,
and we haven’t learned the rules yet.
And the Gottman Method for couples therapy kind of gives you a few guidelines,
the rules for longevity in a relationship.
Yeah, they did a beautiful job at taking these findings they had
through decades of research,
quantifying it,
and then codifying it into a therapy method.
It’s really skills-based.
I tell couples when they’re starting out with me
that they’re essentially going to be starting a class.
So what’s the five-to-one golden rule?
What I read is there’s a kind of balance you can achieve
of how many interactions you have in a relationship
that are positive versus negative.
And I think that’s what the five-to-one means.
But basically, there should be kind of an empirical.
If you just look back over a month,
how many of the interactions were positive?
Or the day.
Or the day.
Right?
So the idea of this ratio,
well, it’s not an idea.
It was a finding.
It is a research finding that the Gottmans got
after looking at thousands of couples
and codifying these interactions that they were observing.
Couples that tend to be satisfied in their relationships,
that are happier, they have better health, et cetera,
they are having approximately five positive interactions
to each negative.
And I want to be clear about what I’m defining
as positive and negative here.
So this doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re—
these don’t need to be big, sweeping, romantic gestures,
buying flowers, having sex.
These are things like paying attention
to what we call your partner’s bids.
We make these bids for affection, for connection,
all the time in our relationships,
not just with our partners, but with our friends,
our coworkers.
And we may not even know what our style of bid is,
but if you see them on a sheet,
you can pretty quickly identify them.
Bids could be wanting to show your partner
or tell your partner something and have them be proud of you.
It could be wanting to go buy groceries with your partner,
doing things together.
Hey, you want to come with me?
It could be telling a joke and hoping that your wife
looks up from her email on the computer and acknowledges it.
If she laughs, then you’ve got a positive.
But if I don’t even look up, that’s a negative, right?
So it’s not necessarily that I’m calling my husband an asshole.
It’s just, am I connecting with him?
Am I meeting those bids for connection?
And vice versa.
But do those also give you a guide of how you should behave?
Well, I think what’s really important
is actually asking your partner
or paying attention to what your partner’s bids are,
because what matters to Ty, my husband,
may not matter to you.
For instance, I mean, Ty’s bar is so low with me.
I thank God for him.
In terms of what defines a positive interaction?
Right.
He just wants me to ask him if he wants a water
when I get up to get myself one.
Just be a basic, decent, considerate person
is all he asks of me.
Whereas mine might be sort of like,
stay up later with me, watch a show,
go to bed at the same time as me,
or know about the people in my life,
that sort of a thing.
I should highlight this, and I hope hopefully it’s okay,
that you were running a little bit late,
and you sent me this text,
which people do really rarely,
and there’s a subtle act of kindness within that text.
The text you sent was that I just decreased
the amount of stress in your life or something like this
by saying it’s cool.
But that means that you’re signaling
that you were stressed because you care enough
to be there on time.
And that made me feel really special.
I was like, oh.
You’re a brilliant guy.
People don’t often, don’t always do that,
because that puts you also, that makes you vulnerable.
Vulnerable.
I actually thought that after I sent it,
but I feel that most of the day.
Any interaction, like, oh God.
I just expose myself.
But absolutely, I was excited to be here,
and I didn’t want you to think that I didn’t care.
I think being a therapist has shown me
that it really, it’s so lucky to be in that position,
because you meet people that you would have thought
are cooler than you or smarter than you
or just somehow impervious to life,
and you realize that we are all in it together.
We all want to be cared about and liked.
We all want to be liked as a baseline.
Some people will say they don’t care,
but everybody does.
It’s human.
And I have gotten much better being a therapist,
much more comfortable showing caring,
showing love and genuineness and vulnerability
than I think I ever would have been otherwise.
And that kind of vulnerability is what’s required
to do a positive interaction in a relationship?
I think so.
And people have different levels of comfort, right?
But as long as it’s working for both partners,
and typically you have to communicate
to figure out what your partner,
what makes your partner feel cared about.
However, you might be working, for instance,
with an older couple,
and I have a couple that’s perfectly happy,
and they sort of have a system.
It works for them.
If there’s some sort of a rupture,
if they get in some sort of a disagreement,
they don’t talk it out.
She might go to the store, run an errand,
do a little shopping.
He’ll work in the wood shop,
and then they’ll come back.
And there is a repair attempt, though,
but maybe she’ll say,
hey, do you want to have dinner?
I made your favorite dinner.
Or he’ll say, hey, I recorded your favorite show.
You want to watch it tonight?
So they don’t need to process it,
but there is an understanding between them
that we’re still in this together.
We care about each other.
We care about each other,
and there’s a repair attempt.
Most people need to be able to process it verbally
and talk about what happened,
but not all.
So for most people,
if there’s a conflict,
you should talk about it and resolve it
and repair it
versus just put it behind you?
I don’t want to say should.
I guess it depends on the couple.
Everybody processes emotions differently.
Everybody handles emotional expression differently.
I mean, I have couples
where I have one person in the partnership
who has autism and the other doesn’t,
and so they’re obviously going to have different ways
of communicating or processing what happened.
We all have different perspectives.
It really depends on
what makes a person feel like it’s been repaired.
What makes a person feel understood?
Does that need to be verbal?
Or in the case of that older couple I have
where they know they understand one another
because there’s a gentleness toward one another after.
What are some common ways relationships fail
that you’ve observed in all the therapy you’ve done?
Well, the Gaumans identified
what they call the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
Okay, what are the Four Horsemen?
I mean, I could just keep it simple
and go off their research.
So those are four different behaviors
that they identify in couples
or that you can identify in couples
that are really highly predictive of a divorce,
some more than others,
but I’ll start with the lower ones.
So one thing that we…
By the way, actually, we all do these things.
These would be in that five-to-one ratio.
You’d want to stay away from some of these.
These are the ones.
So as they pile up,
now that ratio is going to get imbalanced,
and then you are headed for a split, okay?
So the first is criticism.
So criticism is when we have a complaint.
Complaints are normal,
but instead of owning our own problems,
our own feelings,
we assume that our perspective
is the only valid, accurate perspective,
and so we take it upon ourselves
to tell our partner what is wrong with them, okay?
So there’s essentially no real belief
that they might have a valid perspective, too.
So this could look like,
you never help me out with the house,
or even you’re so lazy,
like, can’t I just get you for five seconds
to help with the kids or something like that?
And then what happens is horseman number two,
defensiveness.
So not everybody is defensive
just because they were criticized.
Some people just are more prone to defensiveness than others.
None of us really like admitting our faults,
so it’s pretty natural.
But defensiveness is essentially making excuses or worse,
turning it around on your partner,
not accepting any responsibility
and definitely not validating what they’re feeling.
Now, if you get criticized enough
or if you get really flooded,
flooding is what happens when our heart rate goes up
kind of around 100 beats per minute.
Our frontal lobe shuts down.
That’s our thoughtful brain, our logical brain,
and our reptilian kind of hindbrain
takes over our thinking,
and we just go into fight or flight in a way.
We just want to annihilate our partner
instead of say anything
that would be helpful to the relationship.
So if you’re getting flooded,
you could do a couple things.
You could get super critical.
You could get contemptuous,
which I’ll talk about in a second.
It’s the last horseman.
Or you do the third horseman, which is stonewalling.
And in their research,
the Gottmans found that men
are actually more likely to stonewall.
I also am someone who stonewalls.
But it’s where you just sort of
disconnect from the conversation.
You shut down.
You turn away.
You can physically even turn away,
kind of arms crossed,
but you’re shut off.
And stonewalling happens
usually because you get flooded.
You feel like you can’t win.
You don’t know what to do to make the situation better.
It feels pretty hopeless,
and talking feels unproductive.
So you can see how in a typical heterosexual relationship,
the gender dynamic,
we know that women tend to use criticism more often
because they’re the ones that typically raise issues verbally.
And then if men are feeling more criticized,
that they tend to stonewall.
And it becomes this vicious cycle of then more criticism,
but the criticism is really just a plea to be loved
and get your partner to show you they care.
And then the man tends to feel like he can’t do anything right.
This isn’t even productive.
If I say anything, I’m just going to make it worse.
And they don’t have any real…
You haven’t given them a specific need, a solution,
something they can do to shine for you.
So they turn away.
And where does the contempt come in?
All right.
So contempt is criticism on steroids.
This is what John Gottman calls sulfuric acid for love.
Nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt.
Contempt is when you are looking at your partner
from a superior position.
So you are eye-rolling.
You are name-calling.
There’s a mockery, mocking, even physical mockery,
imitating them, imitating their voice.
Contempt is meant to just take the legs out from your partner,
make them feel pathetic, ridiculous.
And it can be abusive.
But most people have engaged in contempt
at some point in their relationship.
Lower level would be sort of the eye-rolling.
But that is the biggest predictor of a split.
If you allow yourself to think, yeah,
that mockery or contempt just a little bit,
it’s like this weird slippery slope.
It sure is.
And the opposite is true,
where I just look at a person and think,
wow, isn’t that the most wonderful creature
I’ve ever seen in my life?
I just think that.
And you notice the little details about who they are.
So I just observe them the way you observe
a weird peacock at a zoo or something like that.
Intention is powerful, isn’t it?
Yeah.
And it changes.
And you start to notice beautiful things
and then let the things that annoy you.
Yes.
Like just-
You’re exactly right.
You’re touching on some really important things.
So in relationships,
we actually know that wearing rose-colored glasses
is important.
It’s healthy.
We need it.
And it’s a choice you’re making, right?
So there is a saying that getting married
is just choosing one person’s faults over another.
And the reality is that we may become infatuated
with somebody else as human beings.
Love is an emotion.
Attraction is an emotion.
And as you go through life,
even if you’re in a committed relationship,
you might see beauty in another.
And that person who is novel might seem attractive to you.
But if you can remember that they, too,
have a set of problems that you would be marrying,
it really helps you to see the beauty in your partner again
and recognize all of their incredible strengths
and all the ways we meld with a person
and become our own family,
almost become-
I mean, our lives intertwine and we grow those oak trees.
By the way,
there’s a line I read somewhere
that when you’re wearing rose-colored glasses,
all the red flags look just like flags.
I love that.
It’s a good line.
I love that.
So you think that humans are fundamentally-
All of us are fundamentally flawed or have flaws.
They’re unique flaws.
Basically, relationships is just a way
to figure out how the two can fit together.
Right, and we’re different.
So no matter what,
we’re going to have differences.
We are raised differently than our partner.
We have different stories,
different experiences that shaped our value systems,
especially when it comes to the big ones
like parenting, love, money,
these principles that are based in our history.
We’re going to have differences.
So is this a set of differences
you can accept from somebody and work with?
Do the benefits and do their strengths,
do they make it worth it?
Or are they deal-breaker differences?
Tricky question.
But in the couples you’ve worked with,
is there like the feminine and the masculine,
is there different dynamics that come into play
like dominant, submissive?
Is it like a dance
where it just changes from minute to minute?
Is there dynamics that you observe
that both limit and enable successful relationships?
Yes, so there are,
if we’re talking about masculine, feminine,
then how also we could get into,
are we talking about actual gender, identified gender,
or are we just talking about these traits?
Because like I said,
ice stone wall, which is typically in couples,
something that is more associated with straight men,
but that’s my style of coping when I get overwhelmed.
That is not tied to any sort of success
or non-success of a relationship,
but what we do know is that gay couples,
so lesbians and gay men,
tend to be gentler with one another
when they are having conflict discussions.
So that’s actually been identified in the research
and it’s something I’ve witnessed,
and it’s just fascinating.
So with my straight couples,
I’ll be going through one of these,
if we’re processing a conflict that occurred,
I’ll be going through the sheet,
and it’s very, very structured
because you don’t want couples doing more damage
when they’re there with you.
You want them practicing skills
that protect them from criticism,
that protect them from contempt.
And when I’m working with a straight couple,
I am like a referee
or sometimes I’ll relate it to being like a ski coach
and keeping people on a bunny hill,
and you let them make like two turns
and then you stop them,
and you meet up again
because you don’t want them to veer off.
With straight couples,
you are doing very short turns
before you need to kind of intervene and rescaffold.
I had a lesbian couple recently
and they were so lovely with each other,
they skipped like seven steps
to the advanced final portion
where they were already coming up with solutions
and suggesting things
that they might be able to do differently next time
to make it better for their partner.
They were asking each other questions
about how their partner felt with no agenda,
no attempt to sort of be like,
well, do you think you’re feeling that way because,
which straight couples do all the time.
You just see this humility and openness.
It’s lovely.
Yeah, it’s lovely,
but I wonder if maybe watching too many Hollywood films,
if some of the drama,
some of the tension
is required for a passionate lifelong romance.
No, it’s not.
And that’s great news.
So we actually know
that the closer you feel to your partner,
so if, I mean, you’ve talked a lot about beauty
and you can ignite that beauty,
that interest, right?
So when you’re falling in love,
it’s usually that a person is sort of a mystery to you
and you’re uncovering these layers
that you find really appealing.
There are continual layers
that you can uncover with your partner over time.
I don’t think we realize that.
I think we get complacent
and we think we’ve had every conversation imaginable.
What else are they going to do to surprise me?
But we don’t know the questions to be asking.
One of my favorite questions,
I like turning these conversations kind of into a quiz
because I get bored easily.
So rather than just asking an open-ended question,
there’s a way you can do this with your partner
where it’s sort of like the dating game.
Like, what is my as-of-yet fondest
but unrealized life dream?
And see if your partner knows.
You might not even know.
They might know you better than you know yourself.
That in and of itself is a beautiful reminder
of the relationship and how special it is.
But then also when they say it
or when you realize or have to think critically,
like, what is my husband’s as-of-yet
unrealized but fondest life dream?
And then you can talk about it.
You just, I don’t know,
you just kind of transcend into this new area
and you feel tight again.
You feel like, you feel close.
Well, you really talk to each other.
Like, I’ve recorded
and without intending to publish,
a podcast like this with microphones,
with friends, with people close to me
because it’s literally that.
You get to ask questions
like as if it’s an interview.
Right.
And we don’t do that with each other.
That’s exactly it.
The way you’re talking with me.
Yeah.
Sit down with your partner.
Have that conversation.
Like years later.
Right.
Show interest.
Actually be curious.
See what they surprise you with.
And actually what you learn
is you don’t know the answers to most of these questions.
100%.
Exactly.
Like, what’s your favorite movie from the 80s?
You might not know the answer to that.
It’s like those first date questions or whatever.
Or what’s your favorite movie this year and why?
And why, yeah.
It’s fascinating.
It is.
It’s hard to do that
because I think that you’ll probably be offended at first
how little the other person knows.
So I think you have to work through that.
You know,
I actually find that there’s this rekindling
because partners are shocked
that their partner does know so much about them.
Especially if they’ve been feeling dissatisfied
or disconnected.
It’s a reminder of all the good that’s still there.
I know we’ve said some of those things,
but what’s on the opposite side?
What’s the key to a successful relationship?
What are the things you see time and time again
that you designate that they’re on a good path?
Yeah.
There’s a real attunement, honestly.
It’s sort of an us against the world feeling.
Neither partner is going to talk shit on the other.
There’s a loyalty.
They handle each other in the relationship with care.
You can tell that they’ve worked some things.
To me,
it usually indicates that these are some people
who have figured they’ve had to work some things out.
They know that this is delicate.
They know that you’re on thin ice.
You take a wrong step
and you can be back in a tough place in your relationship.
Or you treat it with care and it can be amazing.
So they’re careful with one another.
They give each other compliments.
They are considerate.
So you’ll see he’ll bring the car around for her
because it’s raining
or she’ll bring him home some takeout.
She’ll order for him too at the restaurant.
They keep each other in each other’s minds.
But that us against the world thing,
that definitely is there.
100%.
You’ve seen that, right?
Yeah, you’ve seen it.
And you’ve seen it like…
I like it when couples have been together for a long time
and when one is talking,
the other one looks at them.
If you don’t do that,
that’s not a bad sign,
but it’s a good sign when you do that.
Yes.
And I think it’s actually a really good exercise to do
because I enjoy when I see in others.
It’s a way to show
that you don’t take them for granted
and that you still find them
this mysterious, wonderful creature to observe.
I think too often,
we have that with our parents,
we have that with people close to us.
You think, yeah, I’ve heard what they’re about to say.
I know, I know.
You can complete their sentences.
Take them for granted.
And then if you just look at them and say,
wow, this is the most brilliant person
I’ve ever seen in my life.
I can’t just appreciate every word that comes out of them
and look at them in that way.
You actually begin to believe it
and you actually begin to see the beauty
of what they’re saying.
You are exactly right.
It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And it’s caring.
Yeah.
It’s very caring.
So that’s, I mean,
that’s I think the beauty of what the Gottman research
showed us, taught us, provided us,
is that we can do these things that become cyclic
and just keep growing this relationship,
making it stronger, more powerful, more loving.
You would never want to cut it down.
Well, you were talking about the sheet
for conflict processing.
What are we talking about?
So like a couple will come and say,
like there was this conflict and you put it on the table.
And then what does it mean to process it?
Well, so in that Gottman method of therapy,
there are all these different,
I mean, hundreds of different interventions.
And based on what the issue is in that session,
you can decide the most appropriate intervention.
And so this is a specific intervention for
if it is a conflict that occurred
and there are different types of conflicts.
So this would be more like an incident.
It’s not a perpetual recurring problem,
which has actually a different intervention
where you kind of look at the underlying belief systems,
values, and the goal is not to solve that problem.
The goal in that situation is to actually just get
a better understanding of each other and your positions.
And just you stop seeing your partner as the adversary
and you start seeing them as a person who makes sense.
But if there’s been a specific event,
a specific fight, that’s just sort of situational,
but it’s left bad blood.
Things were said, or you didn’t feel understood.
This intervention I was talking about is one that you would
go through a series of steps where first you identify
the emotions that you were feeling.
Then you describe, play by play,
your movie, your perspective.
If your partner were looking through your eyes,
this is what they heard, saw, thought.
Then they saw this, then they heard this.
So you’re not saying, yeah, then you came in
and were yelling and acting crazy.
You’re saying, so then I saw you come in.
I heard you say, and I thought to myself,
well, great, now everything’s ruined, right?
So you’re showing them your movie.
Then they have to summarize the movie for you
and then vice versa.
Then there’s this step where each person
validates some part that they can understand.
Like based on what you saw, heard,
I can actually understand how you felt
one of those feelings that you said.
Then my favorite part is you rewind sort of the movie
from that day back through into childhood
and you land on a time, a memory,
when you felt a similar set of feelings.
This is like the most beautiful part ever
because let’s say the feeling was I felt misunderstood.
I felt misjudged, uncared about, unloved,
like you didn’t even like me.
I’ll say, when did you feel that way?
Land on a time and they’re like, my whole childhood.
My mom was always accusing me of doing things
I wasn’t doing and it would set me up
and my dad would come home.
He’d hear about it.
He would just believe her.
Then you have a partner climbing up on the couch
to give their partner a hug
while they’re sharing the story.
It’s beautiful and it changes the way
you interact in future disagreements.
So you have those moments.
Yeah, you can’t unlearn.
Now you know this about your partner.
You know what they’re sensitive to.
Yeah, again, you kind of see the beauty in the flaws then.
Right.
It all makes sense.
Yeah, it all kind of makes sense.
Yeah, so you maybe were in this dumpster dive
in your head of how your partner sucks
and all the things that are wrong with them
and it’s so hopeless.
Then you get this light shining through
and you realize, oh my God, of course
they would be sensitive to that.
Suddenly, it’s not about all the ways
your partner is wrong and proving that they’re wrong.
It’s just, how can I in the future
make sure they do not feel this again?
I would never want this person I love
to misunderstand me and feel so unloved.
What do you, the early days of that,
what do you think about the whole dating,
modern dating process?
How do you find a partner that you can
stay with for the rest of your life?
We are absolutely doing it wrong,
but there is a way you can do it.
I am such a fan of the psychologist Tai Tashiro.
I adore him.
He is brilliant.
He is lovely.
He is also very humble.
Just a wonderful salt-of-the-earth guy.
I’m going to tell you a very true story here.
I was in a bad relationship
and I was at a psychology conference
with my partner at the time.
We were both at this conference
and we were sitting in a lecture hall
there for Tai Tashiro to do his talk that day
on his phenomenal research
on relationship satisfaction and dating.
I was sitting next to him and we’d been,
it was just always unpleasant on trips.
There were always fights.
We’re sitting there and Tai Tashiro
starts talking about his research
and how he found that most people
are signing this agreement,
getting married,
and doing it based on the love endorphins.
Really only about 35% of anybody
who’s married is actually happy.
He said, so then,
It’s a pretty low number.
Exactly.
Here’s what I love about Tai Tashiro
is he didn’t stop there.
He wanted to know what those people
who were happy
had in common.
Then same thing with the people
who were unhappy.
He found a couple fascinating patterns.
The couples who were happy
tended to rate their partners
higher in three different traits.
I love talking about this
because if you are somebody
who can follow instructions,
you can find this very easily.
Those three traits tend to be
conscientiousness,
and I love the word conscientiousness
because it’s not just kindness.
Kindness is a good way to think of it,
but you can be kind
and kind of be a pushover
and that’s not attractive.
Conscientiousness is smart,
attentive.
It’s somebody who reads
into a text message and thinks,
wow, she was making herself
very vulnerable there.
That’s conscientiousness.
I like how you’re just
doing a compliment.
I appreciate it.
It’s true.
It’s a certain intelligence,
awareness, and attunement
and then on top of that,
conscientiousness is motivated.
You can’t be on your ass all day
and be conscientious
because then you can’t
meet the needs that you anticipate
about the person.
Conscientious is that guy
who drives the car around
in the rainstorm
so his wife’s hair doesn’t get met.
It’s my husband who
checks my alarm for me every morning
because he knows I’m terrible
at time management
and he makes sure that I
set it a reasonable amount of time
before my first meeting
and not the 20 minutes
I think I need.
Then he’ll come wake me up
with a cup of coffee.
That is ultimate conscientiousness.
It is true.
I will tell you,
as somebody who’s with
a conscientious partner,
your love increases over time
as you continue to feel grateful
and admiring of that person.
The second one,
you want somebody who is
low in a big five personality trait
called neuroticism.
You want somebody
emotionally stable in a way.
Now this doesn’t mean
you can’t have somebody
who doesn’t get the blues
or struggle with
mental health issues.
Trust me, Ty is with somebody
who, you know,
I’m all over the place.
But you want somebody
who kind of owns their shit
and isn’t going to just
be emotionally unstable
all over.
You want somebody who
is generally happy
and has some life satisfaction.
Having a partner
who has serious
not mental health issues
but unmitigated
emotional distress
and instability
is really hard
on the partner.
And it’s really hard
on other family members
including children
if you have children.
So it’s just a predictor
of happiness.
There’s a certain threshold
of chaos
that if you exceed it
is going to be destructive
to a long term relationship.
That is a perfect description
about chaos.
Not the mystery chaos
you love as your
little poet brain.
I’m talking more like just
somebody who
there’s just no peace.
There’s no peace.
There’s a problem
with everything.
Everything becomes
more difficult.
Going to a party
is a chore.
You don’t know
if they’re going to have
a meltdown at the party
or how many complaints
about your friends
or
everything
is a problem.
So you want somebody
who has just some
resiliency
I think is a good term for it.
Some flexibility.
Some spice is okay
but not too much.
Right.
Flexibility, resiliency,
easy going.
The third
is
really interesting
I think.
So he found that
having a partner
with sort of moderate
adventurousness
not high adventurousness
actually leads to
greater satisfaction.
And the reason for that is
high adventurousness
equals novelty seeking.
Shiny new things.
And
so if you’re in a
monogamous relationship
if that is what’s
important to you
it’s going to be
very hard
for a partner
who is novelty seeking
to be faithful.
So that will cause
a lot of pain.
But also
novelty seeking people
tend to
always have new projects,
new interesting things
and so their attention
is drawn away
from the relationship.
And so
you can just feel pretty
neglected or unimportant.
By a little bit.
But you want a little
bit of adventurousness.
So you want your person
to be
sort of self-motivated
individuated
have their own interests
not completely dependent
on you.
But also I mean
low adventurousness
is not a bad thing.
Ultimately what you’re getting
with low to moderate
adventurousness
is that rock
that feeling of stability
that home.
And I made some references
earlier like
when you’re 70
and you turn to your partner
do you want him to be hot?
Or
you know
for instance my dad
has dementia right now.
And my husband
and me on the plane
we were all coming back
from a trip
and where we really saw
how severe it’s getting.
And
he just turned to me
he knew
how much pain I was in
even though I wasn’t
showing it.
And he said
I want you to know
that if it comes to a point
where we need to take care
of your dad
he needs to live with us
you don’t even need to ask.
It is
I am 100%
on board
and will help.
And
those are the things
that matter.
That home feeling.
And technically
that’s a trait
that’s usually
that sort of
my husband
caring so much
about family
and home
and taking care of things
that matter
those are things
that tend to be associated
with that low to moderate
adventurousness.
Somebody who really
cares about simple things
and family.
I wonder if those things
those three things
are something
you can work on.
You know
conscientiousness
you can probably
you can
proactively observe yourself
and
you know
do it more regularly.
Right.
Neuroticism
would be the hardest
one probably.
I think so.
Well
I mean
I was pretty neurotic
in my early 20s.
And when you wake up
to it
maybe you
if you’re self-aware
about it
maybe you’ll be able
to control it.
Yeah I think self-awareness
is key.
I think
that’s why I love
therapy so much.
I think life
is about growth
and our potential
for growth
and to
make our own lives
better
to make the lives
of others better
to serve others
and to help
others
and to
help
others
grow.
And the same
with
adventurousness
you can
I’m somebody
that’s pretty
pretty low
on adventure
but I keep
throwing myself
out there
just for the
extra adventure
so you can
grow in that way.
Yes and I am
high in
adventurousness
and I was not
really ready
to settle down.
I was married
earlier
and I was
trying to
connect myself
to high adventure
people so that
it brings me
out.
It’s like
they’re a horse
and I get to
ride them.
And that’s the
thing so high
adventure people
are attractive
they’re interesting
exciting but it
can be a world
of heartbreak
because you know
you’re only under
that spotlight
for a few minutes
and then they’re
on to the
next shiny thing.
Yeah but
heartbreak is
part of love
and part of a
relationship.
Okay so I’m
saying it’s
important but I
want to qualify
that everybody
has different
levels of sex
that are
satisfying to
them.
Sex can
definitely bond
you to your
partner.
Orgasms are
amazing they
de-stress us
they’re healthy
they I mean
you can have
an orgasm
and have a
lower level
of stress for
48 hours.
I think that’s
pretty incredible.
So having a
physical contact
with your
partner even a
20 second
hug with your
partner has
similar benefits
to an orgasm.
You’re going to
have a lower
stress level
you’re going to
feel immediately
close to your
partner you’re
going to get a
rush of oxytocin
which is going
to make you
feel happier
more grounded
throughout the
day.
So that’s a
20 second
hug you
extrapolate that
to sex and
so on.
Well there are
but it really
has more to do
it’s sort of like
remember I was
talking about
processing conflict
and what matters
is do people
feel like it’s
been resolved do
they feel like
there’s been a
repair not
necessarily how
they go about
doing it.
Same with
sex do does
each partner
feel sexually
satisfying?
So that could
be once a
month for
one couple
it could be
five times a
month.
I mean so
sex has a ton
of benefits but
it’s absence
isn’t necessarily
detrimental I
guess would be
the qualifier
depending on who
you are.
And I know
couples that use
sex as part of
the conflict
resolution process.
It’s hugely
effective for that
if it works
for both parties
all parties
not just both
all.
That’s true.
What do you
think about
infidelity?
What’s the
cause of
infidelity?
It’s
different for
everybody but
I mean even
earlier I was
saying with
adventurousness
like if
monogamy is
something you’re
doing.
I’ve seen
in my own
practice I’ve
seen the
entire range
of couples
who are
open about
having sexual
relationships with
other people
and fine with
it.
Couples who
want to be
fine with it
but find out
they have
multiple
romantic
relationships.
I’ve had
couples where
affairs are
tolerated and
not talked
about.
They’re not
enjoyed but
they are not
the type of
betrayal that
will destroy
the relationship.
Sort of a
understanding and
keep it out of
my face.
And then also
we won’t talk
about it.
So an affair
that happened
without getting
permission first
and as long
as the
partner is
not having
the affair
they typically
know.
They certainly
know that their
partner is
capable of
that.
They just
kind of know.
But they don’t
want it in
their face.
It would
become a
problem if
it was in
their face.
And
that’s
not
a good
thing.
It’s not
a good
thing.
As long
as certain
needs are
met and
everything else
is okay
at home
it’s just
one of those
things where
don’t ask
don’t tell.
That’s an
interesting point
because I had
a bunch of
arguments with
people.
I tend to
hang out
with,
especially in
the tech
sector,
people who
really value
like honesty
and radical
honesty.
Honesty can
be really
destructive.
Like
honesty is
also a
really complicated
thing to get
to the bottom
of because
what is
really honest?
Yes.
Like how do
I look in
this dress?
There’s a
million ways
to answer
that.
It can be
a cesspool
in my
mind.
If I’m
in a
bad place
or my
partner
is
really
unfounded
also.
It can
change on
a dime.
That’s
also not
actual honesty
to the
big picture
of how
you feel
about him.
I have
interacted
with a
few folks
who talk
about their
previous
sexual
partners,
for example,
on the
numbers of
sexual
partners
that
they
have.
I
think
it’s
important
to
be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
You
don’t
really
talk about
it.
It’s
kind of
there in
this
amorphous
shape but
it’s
almost as
if you
were
starting
a new
relationship.
You
have to
figure
that out
about
each
other.
I’m
not
sure
that
honesty
is
always
important.
You’re
talking
about
disclosing
prior
sexual
history.
I
thought
you
were
talking
about
the
need
to
be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to
be honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to
be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to
be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to
be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to
be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
yourself
about
your
past.
I
think
it’s
important
to be
honest
with
your
past.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we
in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your
own
risk.
I
think
that
should
all
we in
just
say
leave
at
your