Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Joy Bryant


Welcome to the armchair expert.

I’m Dax Shepard today.

I am joined by my TV wife Joy Bryant, you know, her from Parenthood, Get Rich or Die trying’ Antwone Fisher.

She’s a writer.

She’s an actress.

She’s a clothing designer.

And one of my all-time favorite people to talk to.

I think we worked together for almost seven years on Parenthood.


And we never ever tired of shooting the shit.

And as you will hear our favorite topics are sex and race in no particular order.

I credit her with defeating me and numerous debates and I thank her for her.

Well, guiding me at a snail’s pace towards woking us.

She would hate that.


I just use that word Wellness.

But anyways, please enjoy my good friend Joy Bryant.

He’s an object.




I’m going to start.

Okay, Joy Bryant.


To the armchair Acts were podcast on.

I’ve gotta say, out of everyone that’s on and you can look at it, my dry erase board.

I have a bazillion names on there.

I’m cleaning.

My son’s searly, you’re the person I’m most excited to talk to ya.


I think I enjoy talking to you.

Almost more than anybody.

I know.

I see people on there.


Maybe she luck.

Oh my God.

Don’t look real deal motherfuckers.

What if it just seems like Superman Batman.

Not even their names wonderful, but we were on Parenthood.




For six years and we virtually did this every single day in our trailer, right?


Yeah, there was a lot of therapy.

That was my god.

Well you?

Yes, because you are your listeners.

Don’t are not don’t know this but Dax, I mean you’d make a great therapist and a great acting teacher.


Oh, wow.

I mean, I know people know you direct.

They don’t know how good you, you know, she’s always looking for The Back-up Plan because as we all know, eventually you’ll just that phone will not For about four years and you got to move into something else and I’ve been kind of working on transpo.

If you know, like, remember one time.


I drove my trailer to work and they found a little that.

I found the movie?


No, I’m Parenthood.

What I’m hearing is like leaving for the sand dunes after we shot one day.

So I drove the 20-foot trailer onto the lot and then they, they found this little spot for me and I backed it in and they were all really impressed.


And that to me, felt.

Yeah, bigger than any Academy Award for anything else.

I just wanted all those the true color due to be like, yep.

Yep, he’s one of us.

Yeah, I remember when I was, when I was shooting a movie and at the time I had this like fancy like Mercedes, G Wagon.


Oh, yeah, and I drove that to said, they’re like whatever.

But then the day when I drove my husband’s Dave’s big ass with the same truck.

So it was Silverado.

Whatever me 500, hd Silverado.

Four-door with the Duramax Diesel, bam, beautiful like all transfer like yo Lisa.


Oh my God, I would like pull up and they Park.

Truck like you had a Ferrari and then Kevin Hart was like because he had a git was like, yo, look amazing.

And I was like, they don’t give a fuck about your G-Wagon about this.

This diesel motherfucker, the 700 pounds of foot toward.


Oh, I got so much props and like yeah.


Well, we’ll get into your husband, your husband who’s an enigma in so many ways.

I’m attracted to every one of those ways, but I think you have an addition to I just love talking to you.


I think you have One of the more interesting stories that there are because you grew up in the Bronx and you were raised by your grandma.

Mmm, and I think it’s a really interesting long, curvy road to you and I being on Parenthood.


In a weird way, I feel like I relate in that.

I like lived in a welfare building for a few years.

I was brought home to a trailer.

It’s just a, it’s a, I love that either you are.

I could end up, you know, doing what we do.

Well, hence, the when you said about like, haven’t always having a back-up plan because I think when you grow up like that, yeah, you’re terrified.



Mine’s a big fucking deal.

Yeah, and even though things go.

Well, you’re always, you gotta make sure because you always had to have.

Yes me.

I’d see it was on our Collective mind as a family all the time.

Yeah, money money, money, money money, but you were raised by your grandma.



And also, if, for some of you that don’t know, Joy is an amazing writer.

She’s one of my favorite writers.

She’s written Coos really powerful kind of up, ATP.

What would we call them off?

Eddie pieces honest.

I was calm, essays essays, your personal essay, you’ve written to that were fucking brilliant.


And one of them you were Which I found to be so powerful because I hadn’t even thought you and I both wrestle with some issues.

Mine is with my dad.

I was you know, I have very had a very very hard time just liking him to be honest.


I was so disapproving of every decision he made in life and by my own estimation everything shitty.

Mom, myself came from him and anything good came from, my mom.

So I was really hard on him.

Yeah, and it’s really layered.


And then when this Me too.

This me to movement started, you had what I thought was just a really interesting take, which is as I remember you two had a hard time with your mom and you were pretty judgmental of her.

And then realizing that.

Oh my God, she was a victim of like that.


Set her entire life In Motion.



So did you come from the home from the hospital straight to Grandma’s?

Or when did you move in with Grandma?

I came home straight from the hospital to Grandma’s.


Yeah, and she wasn’t acting like wish you weren’t calling her mom.

Thing, no, no, Jeffrey Dahmer shit where you thought your mom was your sister, or any, of those really one of those famous serial killers.


They were raised thinking their mom was their sister.


I also heard Jack, Nicholson mime.

He’s a serial killer, but I heard that was the same.

No, he is a serial killer as well.

Yeah, hasn’t broke yet.

They’re waiting for him to pass.

He’s linked to like 26 murders.


Throughout the Hollywood Hills.

That’s my big news.

If I had to be murdered by someone, I would pray, it would be Jack Nicholson.

Um, really one that be an outstanding experience just before, you know, cuz I would you want to be killed by um, Already now.


Oh, I’m gonna out, I’m gonna out you, you want to, you would like to be fucked to death by Jimi, Hendrix, your dream death.

This Is It accurate to say, okay, anyone living or dead?


Would that be?

That would be that would do you find a bra or know somehow, it’s Arava Jimi Hendrix.


Yes, and we watched it to see if like we can tell ya, we wanted to know if he had Like a foot of log, right?

Is that what our goals?

Yeah, it was kind of janky because it was more so about like the women who were saying that it was him and the tape or like talking there was a lot of like it wasn’t the sex tape.


No, it was a big letdown.

It was a huge like that.

We thought we were going to see lovemaking that sounded like Crosstown traffic like we thought we were going to see a purple haze.

Just something real messy.

But then but not in the they left us with more questions than yeah.


That’s right.

Yeah, we actually walks that like Sweet like in between like thanks.

Yeah, takes whatever.

In fact if you and I don’t eventually get some sexual, harassment case brought against us.

By some of the people on Parenthood.

I’ll be shocked because we also would watch.

We joined I would watch non-stop this video series about power of the penis with this woman warned other women about the power of a man’s penis and how if he hits your walls.


You gotta hit the wall.

Yeah, if he at your walls, your, your your call, Cognitive function goes out the window anyone to watch.

Well, you didn’t mean shit.

No, we didn’t talk about but we talked about it and we are watching it certainly within earshot of a lot of this is true.

This is true.


So if we also scissors usually know women that work on the set moves dude, so, you know, yeah, but I think we had a sound guy.


We loved Ron big Ron.

Yeah, and he could, he could sue us for sure because we talk almost exclusively about kind of swimwear.

He wore on vacation and we We had guests in a been confirmed that he doesn’t wear leopard print Speedos, which is spectacular.


We love Iran.

I just always imagined bra.

Yes, Ron.

Well, I’m wearing a bra.

You had asked me that because you know, with the microphone there.

You gotta hide it, a little louder.

Yeah, you have to hide the mic if you need a place to clip it on.

Yeah, so he would ask me if I was wearing a bra.


Yeah, but it was funny because it was just funny.

Again, one of those scenarios wearing a bra.

You were no bro.



That’s right.

I brought today, but you can see where different actress that’s in it.

That’s a weird situation because there are no women like generally women in this business are having a microphone put on their bra by a man.


I’d say, at least 99% chance.

That mean, I mean, I mean, I think like, dudes, reckon time, especially, I think sound guys, they recognize that massive.

All right, it’s awkward.

I mean, and no one’s trying to cop a feel me, at least.

I mean, I hope not.

Yeah, it’s awkward thing.

But, you know, it is funny to be as if your Brock.


Has anybody else asked me?

Are you wearing a bra?

Fuck you?

Excuse me about what I’m doing my business.

There was like, yes, Ron.

I am Ron.

I am not in fact in six years.

Did you ever have to say to him?

I’m not.

I think five, possibly a couple times not today, Ron.


And he said.

And then were any other day?

Run Free bottle, free, balling today.

So and then he did, he just get perplex like Like oh, what are we gonna do now?

How right then use is going to go to the thyristor.

Well, we used to even say we say, no, don’t.



Yeah, we’ll get sued.

Oh my God, but you were raised in the Bronx and what did your grandma do?

Well, actually my grandmother prior to me being born.

She worked, she dropped out.


School like ninth grade to like work.

She was doing like Insurance working this year.

A lot of my family worked like Blue Cross and Blue Shield and work.

No, medical insurance.

Yeah, I like a car insurance.

No, but when I was born she in order to take care of me, she quit her job and she went on welfare to take care of me and she was somebody.


Who never.

I mean, we grew up in up.

We were poor, we grew up in a in the South Bronx and but she had worked hard her whole life and she had never so for her to accept government assistance.

Yeah, was a big deal is a big deal.

Yeah, right.

Um, so yeah, but you’re not even there is even less energy to supplement that she would do all the stuff on the side like help people, you know, their offices are one but certainly a lot of your neighbors were also getting government assistance.


Yeah, not necessarily known as the mix.

It was a mix but there were shame regardless.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, Like I remember like I hate to Joe.

Did you get food stamps?

I didn’t again my mom very prideful woman in there were moments where we certainly should have had them.



And we didn’t write or like my lunch fucking blue and I was looking at the other kids that were born and they had the free lunch, like bringing the pizza and the fries, and I had like a bologna sandwich and it sucked with no mayonnaise.

Yeah, all for my mom’s pride.

No, but whatever.

Yeah, by me.


I remember like being a shame that we We were on welfare.

Like, you know, being handed food stamps, to go to support government trees.

I was I just wanted about that.

My favorite cheese.


Is that government job to this day the best cheese for macaroni and cheese.


And a grilled cheese.

I would argue is government cheese.

Yeah, because almost all my friends had that government cheese and they had the really gross looking like 70 ounce.

Can that just had a picture of a pig on the side?

You remember that one?


Because it’s like a Fucking can of pork.

I don’t know what part of the pig was in it, but it was just it was an I assume because of you know, English as a second language ever.

They made it as simple as possible.

There’s a picture of a pig on.

It’s like a black outline.

It was, it was cheese.

Peanut butter.

Cheese and peanut butter was the biggest ones are make it work.


Mother protein and fake Dairy.

But so you started in public school there.

Actually I started in Catholic School.

Oh you did.


I went to Catholic school for like 6 years and then public school for two years and then I got a scholarship to private school.


Yes, you were a part of the field stun enrichment program.

That is correct.

And what the fuck is the fields dinner if the feels enrichment program?

Was a was took place at the fieldston school, which is like this private Day, School like, fancier School in Riverdale.


Just like the north Bronx and so on Saturdays, on Saturdays, and then, Every day in the summer.

So basically I went to school six days a week and Summer for my sept 7th and 8th grade.

Like we would go to the school and there’ll be other teachers from the district that we were in which was District 9 in in the Bronx.


Which is which I didn’t know until years later was like one of the worst performing districts in New York City.


I didn’t know that.

Of course, when I was there.

But anyway the teachers from the district come to the feast enrichment program and that’s when we were like get like intensive.


Like Like reading math science classes.

So basically the supplement the wasn’t bullshit as yeah education where we getting.

Yeah, and was it driven by you or your grandma know we like you you gotta know.

I mean it was I mean, I was always a pretty driven kid.


I mean she instilled in me that like the only way for me to get out of?

Yeah the environment of signing you up for all this shit.

Obviously, she’s signing me up, but I’m knowing about this first like you gotta do it.

Right, right.

Um, so school like private school.


Al’s with go to and I believe feels Tim was a part of a bigger umbrella of a better chance, which is another bit of National Organization.

So private schools will come to programs like fieldston.

There was there’s a bunch of different programs like this, right?

And basically scope out their talented minority.




Because for them, the in theory want to diversify their student body.


As we want to have a better day.

Also, I would imagine don’t Let someone in that’s going to ultimately test terribly.

And they’re programmed looks like not a success.


So they’re kind of cherry picking at them.



Because like when you when you sort of go to programs like the one that I went to that’s the sort of help kind of get you kind of, you know, what a weed out.

Some people’s can also kind of get you in the mindset of like competitive academics and sort of environments, right?



So you want some what you want to set everyone up for Success.

The school wants like, You know, viable candidates is going to make them look good.

Yeah, we want to get an education.


So today we are.

You being made fun of at this point because you’re doing all this schooling.


Is that uncool in your neighborhood and say like I think you were up a deer or anything.

Um, I wouldn’t say, I mean, I definitely got the old you sound like a white girl or you smart so you white or whatever but it wasn’t.


I never felt bullied.

Okay good, so I wasn’t.

It wasn’t like that man.

That’s a shit people say, but in you said, you were About this, I believe in your your essay about having kids.

I feel like this is where I read it or maybe just told me but that you didn’t feel like you were fitting in in the black community because you didn’t have a big-ass yo, that was this other.


That was another piece.

That was the refresh their memory know, your shit.

I can’t even get one of your favorite writer.

Yeah, my God, you really are.

Oh my God.

No, so that was on the roof like Hemingway.

There’s like there’s no, there’s no flourish.

There’s like it’s just called the truth.

With its great.

Thank you.


Yeah, but you you felt skinny.

Well, not because I didn’t.

Yeah, I didn’t feel like I fit in.

Like I didn’t I didn’t feel like, I look like whatever one else look like or at least wanted to look.

Yeah, right like this is 80s.



Yeah, cause I was born in 74.

So this is, you know, I want to.

We have C is happening.



Because what?

I want away to boarding school in 88.

Oh damn.

You were 13.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. yeah, so but I think it’s I think it’s again.


I think weirdly although they were very different you and I straddled the bunch of different things where as a kid.

You don’t feel like you’re a part of either of these groups and maybe you’re drawn to both groups and you’re kind of playing a little bit in both, but you met for me personally.


I feel a little bit fraudulent in both and it’s really complicated and then later in life, like so many things, it’s like this crazy gift that you have.

Yeah, you know, become it becomes this like the greatest thing.

Your Arsenal.

Yeah, I’m like, I wish I wish that.


Of course, like, looking back.

I wish that I had more confidence in just being even, I was different, right, I wish I had more confidence in that.

Um, and I also wish that, you know, for instance, like now when I see, I think it’s as such a great time to as a black person, or as a black woman and especially to be like free to express yourself.


However, you want like right?

Like, you know small way just as fact of seeing like black kid skateboarding.

Yeah, every time I see a black kid on a skateboard.

I’m like, yeah.


My people are your hillbilly husband who’s fucking black and he’s got a beard driving a diesel truck on his way to lick a Blick, right?


But yeah, like anytime I see that or like I was at this at this concert the other night and there was an artist who opened up for the And in Hughes black, Denise, really just out there and I was like, wow, I’m like, I just love seeing black people be free to express themselves, you know, not and I’m sure there’s still there’s definitely still stigmas or people who talk a lot of shit.


But like it’s much more easier to be a black nerd or Dubai or to be like, you know, there’s there’s more there’s more examples.

I should say there’s more pointy shoes now because a more examples of that.

So like if you’re going up now and you’re seeing all of these People who look like you doing things that you’re interested, you feel more supported versus went back in the day when you’re like when there’s no internet.


Nothing to Mike.

I’m the only one I want to go to space.

Yeah, you’re right.

I wish there was.

Yeah, they groups you find your tribe.

I think.

Also the way that the the television business has evolved which I’m regularly lamenting at times when it’s time to get paid or something, but what has happened which is cool.


Is now the TV game is a niche game.

So Netflix is Worked with 700,000 viewers back in the day.

If you weren’t getting twelve million viewers, they were not going to pay money.

So now there’s like hundreds of options, all these Niche subcultures or cultures or whatever they are.


And I think that’s really kind of cool.


I don’t really think about is that?

Yeah, you can kind of find the thing.

You’re into, you can find your tribe.

It was a lot harder to do that back in a day.

I mean, there were people who don’t know you started in the Bronx and now I know you went to Catholic school, but then you were part of this and then you went away to a boarding school in.


What is it?




In Simsbury, Connecticut, which is all fucking white.


Yeah, so it was about 350 students.

Nine percent minority and I said minorities.

That’s like a blanket that’s for that’s a girl.

That’s 1/18 Cherokee Indian, but I’m fine.


But yeah, so that’s black by the way, when someone tells you they’re American Indian, I just want to say I have a little ratio that goes through my head.

So if I mean to do this like I’m quarter quarter Cherokee, I then multiply that by point two five, I think people tend to You exaggerate how American Indian they are.


Well, you know what?

There’s a point now, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t.

Would you call that.

You told me in Bronx, they call that Redbone.

Now, that’s different.

That’s different.

That’s like a don’t know.

I wanna trap you into speaking for the black community.


But I feel like you can speak for the Bronx Community in 1980.

I can speak for Milford, Michigan.

Well, yeah.

Well, I want to go back to the, to the American into to the to the American anything like if someone were to say I’m a quarter.

I most likely.


Yeah, I’m I think like but you raise a point where because like you ever watch that show.


Like finding your roots Woodhouse.


I’m aware of it.

I’ve never watched.


Should totally watch it.

Yeah, every white person is like out a slave owner in their back, right?

That’s the one that Ben Affleck has like, can you just like scrub the?


And then almost derailed the show.

Yeah, and then you people do Larry David Larry David, but he seemed to lack, like, he, he had the reaction of your, like, I would add, which is they expose that one of his relatives owned some slaves and he starts laughing.


Finn uproariously.

He’s like, I knew you’d find it.

I knew like, knowing that he was gonna be what about Ty Burrell from Modern Family?

He found out that he’s actually a descendant of slaves.

Oh, really?


You’re black.

You should watch this shit.


I’m good.

All right, um, but anyway, Henry, Louis Gates because there’s a lot of black people who like over time, like, oh, I got India.

My family that was, you know, but and sometimes it’s you know, that’s what they’ve been told.

Y’all just make that up is what, you know, our anyways, family kind of Just the family Legend like oh no, need of this, whatever, whatever.


So that that used to be something with dressed up a bit.

No, no more.

Like, yeah, we’re the right.

So, I think through in that during that show and sort of his involvement in genealogy or whatever.

He discoveries like, you know, you know, like that’s probably most foremost black folks in America.


That’s actually not true.

It’s not accurate.

So but again, it’s because of what’s been passed down now, by the way, 23 and me, okay.

I have I’ve always been told that we have Cherokee.

Oh great.

I don’t know which so you got your own song, Cherokee People.


Well, I’m not sure.

I don’t know if my mom’s just saying, if you’re gonna find out your American Indian right sky’s the limit if there’s a song.

Well, I’m 1.1 percent according to 23andMe 1%, Yes, Cherokee.

I don’t know.

What’s there is a.

Let me in.


Okay, don’t believe it.

But anyways, I’m teasing and actually don’t do the ratio on a black person tells me that they’re American Indian, which by the way, almost never happens.

It’s more to me.

When a white do tells me.

He’s American because, you know me, I like I love 70s Outlaw country, right?


And all these guys, all of a sudden decide.

They were American Indian.


Yes, like, oh, well, I’ll tell you Waylon.


Well, well, Jennings.

And and oh my God, Hank, Hank jr.

They did a couple Duets together.


And in those Duets you find out, they have, they’ve given themselves American Indian names.

So one of them is named W Oishi.

And one of them’s name, Bocephus, and they have this kind of Arcadian, utopian idea of what American Indians like was, I don’t think so.


I don’t think ain’t yours really Cherokee, huh?

I just think it.

Is like a, they were all excited to embrace that and they had walked Hoshi and Bocephus.

Don’t, you know, we would walk tall shit.

I’ll be right here by my side.

No sense of irony call each other.


Make anyways, that’s why I have the ratio.

It’s really doesn’t doesn’t transfer onto black folks.

I didn’t take them at face value, but suffice to say, you went from a very black neighborhood.

I went from a predominately black Hispanic neighborhood and you didn’t necessarily feel like Are the, you know, Apex of whatever girls were trying to be there now, right?



Not that it was the opposite of Apex, the major your, the nadir.

And then what’s the op and was like the lower than that, maybe R naught minus 10%.


That wasn’t me.

And then you go to this fully white World, in Connecticut, by my estimation is like the whitest of the whitest of the white that white, right?


Because Hillbillies in will we can maybe get into this but you and I have invented this.

The solar Spectrum, right?


So there’s I think just when you’re pouring you’re down and out.

There’s some soul action, that happens, you know, on the good end of it.

So there can even be, there’s some, there’s some soul attributes to these weirdos living in Appalachia with their banjos and stuff.


You know, I’m saying.

Yeah, whereas Connecticut is, like, you know, where I asked Scott waspy at the Christmas trees, 11 feet tall.

It’s got white lights on it, right?

At least.

That’s my eye.

Bloody blue bloody old money.

Yeah, so you go there.

And are you scared to go there?


No, you’re excited.

I’m really excited because like Follow, my grandmother said, education is gonna be my ticket out of here.

So soon as I soon as I found out that I could go to school and not that I would or could but when I found out that I could go to school and fucking Hawaii.


I’m like what I’m out of here, right?

So like I was excited to go away by the same time.

It was a culture shock.


And honestly wasn’t so much even like Yeah, it was.

I mean obviously there weren’t very many people who were, you know, black Hispanic or whatever, but the the the hardest part aspect of the culture shock was not the racial part.


It was the socio-economic.

Yeah, right because I mean I knew I was born in the Bronx.

Yeah, but then I really like that was but that was also when the scale of growing up in a sort of, you know, working class lower.

Lower, you know lower low income.


Like low-income to like to middle-class.


To like middle-class area and then going there.

It’s like holy shit.


It is funny.

When you’re a kid, you’re largely unaware of where your immediate environment is ranking nationally or Statewide or whatever God.



So that’s that was like a huge shock and it affected my confidence level because I I thought that Julian pores bad.



When you’re a kid, that’s like it’s so bad around other poor people.


Yeah, so imagine around rich people.

It was like it was completely like oh and like how it affected me for the first couple of years was sort of like I thought that just because those kids were rich, not that there were white.



Just because they were Rich that they had to be smarter than me.

Because why wouldn’t you be right?

But sure, if you’re Rich.

Your family off to worry about paying bills.

You’re gonna have to worry about places, stay whatever.

Yeah, you have plenty of food to eat, you can go to the best schools.

So why the fuck are you all?

And we’re conditioned to believe that being rich is a product of kind of elevated intelligence, whether it’s through, Ingenuity or management, or whatever you do, you associate you link those things.


You don’t think of a dumbass is being a self-made Millionaire.



It’s so they’re kind of inextricably linked, right?

So, so it fucks with me because I was just like, ahh, even though I Got good grades and infected infected outwardly affect my performance.





I was just like, I don’t I can’t even and I think there’s a couple things that happened.

But mainly it was that like I finally realized that if the dumbest kid in school was also the richest kid in school.


Yeah, what the fuck is my problem?



And then once that, once you actually realize that there or after yeah, no no there because that like an enzyme all these realizations that I can’t remember if I actually realize a mentor I did know, I was very clear.

I remembered it then because like, you made it once once, once that clicked, then it was like yeah, like I was high honors, not just honors, you know, and and and I realized that the right fucking time which is like at the end of my sophomore year.


So someone somewhere around my sophomore year going into my junior year which isn’t the most important for college, but once I realized that I got this, yeah, so it made it but going back to the race element.

There was definitely shit where yeah.

So if I’m imagining being you, and I guess the closest I can come to it is being semi recognizable from TV.



So I’ll be in a scenario where there’s 15 people and I’m having this battle in my head that I feel like everyone’s staring at me.

I’m pretty certain of it.

And then another part of my brain goes you’re being an egomaniac.

No one in here is thinking about huh?

And then I go definitely taking a picture of me.


That’s some proof.

This is back and forth of if I’m a megalomaniac.

Conscious of I am detecting, like everyone hears fucking thinking about me as very uncomfortable and I.

So I have to imagine being one black girl in a class of 25.



I feel like I would, even if I was wrong, be thinking God, they must all be thinking about.

The fact I’m here.

Um, not so much.

I mean, I think that like my, yeah, my confidence.

My out work, like my confidence level was shaky.



Because of this feeling like I wasn’t as good as They had more means, right.

So I tended not to really raise my hand in class, right?

Or whatever, but I wasn’t really tripping on them, trippin on me.


Um, well, by the way, that can go both ways because I also put a lot of energy into trying to be different in my class.


I had a mohawk and then I had green hair and then I dressed.


And I think I did do that.

Yeah, so I dug it, you know, I was obviously seeking that which is weird because I’ve always been trying to do that.

Well II.

I did that.

I did that on level of like, at my school, you had to play a sport, right?


And before I got there, I ran track, I played basketball, but when I got to the school, I didn’t know.

There was fucking all these other sports like this.

What the fuck is cross-country.

We’re on our way.



Doc, look, promising soccer before.


Until I went there.



Or like hockey.


Sake raw squash.

What the fuck?

Are you playing right?


Yeah, but I actually played for, I tried.

But every sport and for me.

My basketball or you play that’s not gonna play the thing, they expect me.

Okay, so that’s what I’m getting at.


Is that like I didn’t run track until my senior year.

I didn’t, I play basketball one season, but basically, I was determined to play every other fucking sport.

Yeah, then the one that I’m not gonna sing and dance read, right?

Even though like, well, okay, there is some type, something to be said about basketball and track, whatever, but at the end of the day, that is what I played right going in there.


So I had this little chat.

Of my stroke shoulder.

Like I’m going to, I’m going to show him that like, I’m the best swimmer in this state to show them that like we play, we play hockey, we play Squash IMA bust, these white girl’s ass like that was like, that was like, yeah, I’m gonna prove to them that play.


Any sport on one that’s coming.

Finally, ran track and then like I did pretty good or bad.

That’s a pretty fast.

I might my coaches were, like, why did you wait till my bag of emotions to totally shine and then, A bond issue and exactly sandbag.


We’re and then.

So, and that was a boarding school.

So, you’re there.

What nine months a year or something?

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah, and then you would come back to the Bronx and what was that transition back there?

Like, um, To me was pretty much the same.


I mean, I think I had more confidence and more confidence in that like not that I thought I was different.


Um, but whatever, I was a nerd whatever, like it was.

Okay, right, you know, and also the weird thing is that, you know, I had always felt really like insecure about what I look like, right visit.


Yeah, right.

I think that’s a human condition, right?


And the but when I went to Boarding school.

The fact that I was skinny, was actually what they were all going for.


It was I didn’t under was just so confusing to me because I grew up in completely different culture where that wasn’t, the ideal aesthetic, right?


So I go to school, where they’re like, oh my God, your body is amazing.

I’m like, I’d never heard that before, not that I should be hearing that at 13, right?

But my point is that like, I’d never, I’d never been that girl, right?

So it oddly kind of gave me confidence to be What you were, what I was, right, but you can still get caught up and I didn’t have an eating disorder.


But to sort of has to be caught up in that aesthetic.


Yeah, but I needed to go that way in order to feel comfortable about myself, but I didn’t really understand.

Like I couldn’t understand.

I didn’t know what Eating Disorders wasn’t weren’t.


I got to school and I’m not making, I mean, this is serious condition.

I had no idea what that was.

Yeah, and I didn’t Understand it when I was there because I was like, I don’t understand.

Why do you.

Well, there’s all these weird things that pop up.

Once people have a lot of money, like it’s like if food scares the notion of choosing not to eat it is preposterous.


And then, and I think I feel like there’s a lot of these kind of real estate when people have the luxury of not worrying about X Y and Z, they start having other concerns, so I do think it’s just interesting that you’re not finding people choosing not to eat in a lot of places.


Has on planet Earth, where food is scarce, it’s kind of crazy.

What is the in a sort of like what is the?

I mean, at the time, I I think things could possibly be different now, but I think at the time it was definitely a predominantly like, white.

I don’t know which economic class but I was Zoom upper-middle-class to me at the time it seemed that way and um and because also when you think about where is that coming from is a coming just from like a spine?


A certain body type, which is your eccentric, which is why it, which is like, you know, skinny and whatever right, possibly.

I don’t know.

The timing of also evolved over the decades, like, now, when you watch movies almost, everyone’s got a great ass and then I watch I’ll catch a movie like, on from the 70s or 80s and like the pin-up girls like or, you know, whatever the height of the most, the sexiest women out there.


No 0s, just no one even considered that they might need to work out their legs, or their ass, right?

It’s just all about big boobs, right?

Like in the 70s 80s, so that is static changes like that.

Decade to decade true, but the white aesthetic is pretty consistent.

Okay over?

I believe, he’s still pretty consistent.


But anyway, so I don’t know, the the psychological like, underpinnings of Eating Disorders because it is a real thing, right?

And I don’t think, I think it does cross cultural lines, but I’m just going for my experience when I was there.

Another body been in deserves, on the other side of people who eat too much.


That’s an eating disorder as well.


Sure, but, no one was striving for the Eric writing from so that the other place it was they were.

And so I fit in so that made me more comfortable but then like, you know, it’s a slippery slope.


So I guess it could do one of well could do a few things, but I imagine it could do one outcome of be.

You got your at this white place?

And you feel like, oh my God, I’m crushing on this.

And then you go home and you go.

Oh wait, I’m not.

And then you go.

Oh, all these things are mental constructs.


These are all like nothing’s real.

Also, this neighborhood has this aesthetic, and then this one has this.

So really, there isn’t an aesthetic.

It’s right.

Kind of cultural, which right would be liberating, right?

Or you and outcome, could be you feel out of place at both places or even third, the best outcome and maybe be who I’m unique in both these places.


It’s all.

It’s all the above.


I mean, I think that, like, now I can say I’m unique in all these places.

I think, at the time it was both of those other things.

It was sort of like going back and forth between sort of like, oh, okay.

This is all bullshit or whatever.


On to like because, you know, I think we still.


So kid.

You want to fit in, you know, right?

Yeah, so it’s like one of the again, that’s what I was just saying.

So we’re processing all that stuff with the fully developed frontal world that up, you know, an older person has right, you know, it’s impossible to remember exactly how your Computing all this shit, right?


Your brain doesn’t work that way anymore, right?

Yeah, but then you go from there and you get into Yale.

I did.


And You go to yell.

I do go to, Yo, a, I want to know one thing before then.

Were you dating in high school?



When was your first boyfriend that you can remember my freshman year freshman year.


Westminster white dude or black tea?

Black tea black tea.


Okay, and when’s the first because you told me a great story, but this was when you were in jail, I think we went was the first time he did.


White guy in high school in High School, freshman year and a half freshman Junior, Great Name point to something like that.

And that trigger any.

Like, did you go, did you go through a whole other phase of like evaluating yourself based on that value a myself?



I was just fine.

It was hunky-dory.

You met a guy?

You liked.

And that was it was simple.

Um, yeah, I mean, I guess like I want it to be attractive to.

Yeah, dude.

I just don’t really care who I think we share.



So wait, so wait question about dating.


I mean, I have a million questions about date.

Some pervert, but continue.

Well, I would say about Yale and kind of tied it at a dude from Michigan.

When you’re at.


Yes, and you can go back to the cry and grandma.


No, it wasn’t.

It was like it was on.

It was rough.

I guess, I’m just started this conversation by saying that.


Joe and I were on Parenthood for six years.

We’re playing an interracial couple.

And yet in six years, there was only really a single episode that talked about that fact that I was right.

You were black.

Yeah, and I, I do not fault the show for this.


I think it was an attempt to be post-racial what?

Yeah, eight years ago.

Seemed like what you should do.

Like, oh, this should just be normal.

This doesn’t need to be the topic that they go through all the time, which is fine.


I again, I’m not critical of it.

But what?

Fascinating as soon as they’d yell cut all you.


And I talked about 51 and all we talk about is black and white pictures, great.

We don’t ever Tire of the conversation.

Yeah, we both find it endlessly.


It is endlessly.

Fascinating to me because I wouldn’t have fucking majored in anthropology if I wasn’t fascinated by like cultures and how we’re different.


How were the same and what’s the overlap and all this shit.

So we never stopped talking about it and they’ll talk, we’re still dead and we will die talking about.

I talking about it and we both Both as I recall, when I talk to you after seeing get out you and I both love the opening of that movie, right?


And I could have watch, I mean the movies.


It’s perfect.


I started watching, but I also could have watched a whole movie.

That was just that opening act of them talking about that stuff.

I find.

And I think when you date each other to, there’s like yet another layer because when you’re in love with someone all these fears come out, like will I be enough for this person.


Am I attractive.

Enough is all these things?

So now that just like, Whores gas on all these other issues, so it’s endlessly.

Fascinating to me.

But um, went so I would assume in you tell me so you become like a master code switcher.


At this point, right?

You can.

That’s a really good.

I mean, I I I think that damn near every black person in America is a monster codes.

We have to be.

Yeah, I mean, In, and just some even the most mundane situate.


I mean, like, yeah, we’re we all have to well and I think because again, all the a lot of these issues that everyone talks about appear to be black white, or they appear to be this or that appreciate you, okay, but even say I’m sober and and a, a people go.


My alcohol is my uncle is milk.

And I was got once really just human nature, right?

Or Human Condition.


So code-switching.

Yes, obviously much.

More dramatically you have to do if you’re black and you live in the US, but are you?

Hey or but me, like I went to UCLA, I go home all my friends.


You know, many of them are in jail.

Some of them are missing, t.i.


I go back there.

I like, I talk different.

I’m different.


I want to be more blue collar.

I want to be more masculine more, all these things and I do that and then I’ll run into some fucking executive who I want a job from an all said and I’m like, I’m a Harvard graduate right now.


So I’m doing it too.

It’s definitely.


It’s more obvious, I think on the outside and we even you and I even had this experience.

So you, you and I met before we ever did Parenthood together.

We had met a couple times like out in public and I just always liked you and I feel like you and I had a similar acknowledgement of oh, isn’t this crazy War?


Now, act like I can see any like they say another sailor always sees, another sailor at Sea and I think you and I were both in places where I was like what how the fuck did I get into this place?

It’s a real recognize real you’re sort of like posture.

So we had met a couple times and I just was immediately drawn to you and then we started working together and I will say, I we shot the pilot but that was really brief and then we came to do the series and I do remember you and I’m going to use the wrong words here.


But all of a sudden you got black or with me.

Like I saw a side of joy that was blocked.

The only adjective I can say is blacker.

Which is wrong, but I’m just being honest and then I realize I had to tell myself like of course like Joyce from the Bronx.


This is where she’s from.

This is her too.

But for me, it was an adjustment.

And then I thought well, I guess this is maybe a compliment like you trust me to be that other side of you to do you how do you make that decision?

Whether you’re going to let someone in your circle into like, yet another layer, is it conscious or not?


I think sometimes it’s conscious.

I mean, I to let you into a layer which is like, have a professional layer.

Yeah, and I have like I’m going to say shit that if someone read in a transcript, I’m fucked but I’m gonna, I’m gonna trust you and I’m going to talk how I really want to talk to you.


I mean, I think like as you get older, I mean, you know, you discretion and you figure out who you know, right Gonna Roll up to a, not going to talk to on one of these Studio has the way I talk to you, right?

Right, unless you going to run this studio very well could and then in that case what we want to fuck my movie.


Yeah, my three-picture deal my deal.

Um, so you you go I’m not interested in you because who gives a fuck.

But you then I do want to say one thing about you.

Please tell me because I mean I was there for two years, but whatever when I was at born in Born school, well, can I just ask one question?


How pumped are you?

When you get a letter that says?

Oh I was so fucking.

That’s why I was so fucking punk.

As I knew I was going to school there.

I knew that.


I knew it.

I knew it.

In fact, I knew it so strongly that I was only going to.


I only wanted to hide.

I mean, wow.

Anything about the shit that I used to?

Anyway, I only wanted to apply to Yale no backup for you.

I was like, I’m going, I’m like yellow brown my college, but I was like, you can’t just apply to schools and you can’t just apply to to Ivy League schools.


I was like, but I’m gonna get in.


Yeah, you can say that.

Both I did.

I got and everywhere.

I got it.

I apply them.

But the others I mean II needed to apply to other schools because he was like, I did not.

Do you have a strong admission letter?

You remember it?

No, I don’t remember.

I don’t, I’m like, we’re good, right?


I’m gonna get the right.

I tell myself.

I only got a new you see?

Like as my admission letter.

I think that I got into Yale because I was a well-rounded.

I was a well-rounded.


Even though my test score at my, um, at standardized were running low on the low side.


There was a dude.

There was, I’m glad you brought that.

There was a dude in school who had applied to Yale.

He was in an AP classes and he was under the and he didn’t get in and so he never said anything to me, but I heard housing how she only got in cause she’s like, no, I got in cause you’re fucking boring.


Then this I don’t really know him though, but I did know someone a woman.

Oh, it’s on.

Teenage girl who I was friends with friend friendly enough, you know, and I got into like one of my safety schools.


I was uh, one of her reach schools has white very well off.

Yeah, and she didn’t get into that school, but I did write and she was like, you even want to even go to that school, like, you’re gonna because you’re black and I was like, here’s the thing I got in.

So I was like, I got him because my grades are better than yours.


Well, right, that’s great.

So, but but This is not my aunt and actually when it comes to Black, what I’m not competing against you.

So um, yeah, it’s, this is something that comes up all the time when people argue about affirmative action, right?


Because there are people will say, and I’ve heard black professor say this who are against it, which is very few.

I suppose that.


Oh, so you’ll get in and everyone will go.

You just got in because you’re black and that’s the wrong way to get in or whatever, which to me is preposterous because like no get Cannons, the fucking goal.


Not what people are saying to you anymore.

What about those kids who get in?

Because they’re fucking parents by Legacy.

Yeah, that’s affirmative action as well.

Yeah, you know, or the fact that we as variety or the fact that you’re a woman.

Yeah, and so like, I, so, I remember those two instances, like, in terms of anything like related to or racist or anything related to race.


That I encountered at that school.

Those were two of the biggest moments.

I mean, and that’s pretty good considered a for her.

Because there’s what you said, which is fine.

If you’re of it, was you’re a fighter.

Well, it wasn’t.

How did it feel?

It’s so it mean it felt incredibly dismissive.

Uh-huh, right?



Well do something, literally taking away your accomplishment.

With one cent.

I can get the do do.

I don’t know saying that shit.

Mmm, but the woman that I dunno you saying that shit and we supposed to be cool.

But now I realize we ain’t that cool because at the end of the day you still looking at me like I’m a what?


So fuck you American Indian wait.

Look at you like you’re a Cherokee.

Yeah, right.

It’s like this girl’s 1% Share.

You only got him because your 1% Cherokee listen get in where you fit in.

Fuck you.

So anyway, so that was that was my Yeah, Mmm.



Well, I don’t know how I would because that didn’t happen to me.

Other than like.

Yeah that didn’t happen to me.

I would, I’m dyslexic.

So I took this like six week testing phase in college so that I could not have spelling count.


That was the reward.

If you were Will dyslexic.


And and so I had people jokingly say that to me but it really didn’t do anything.

It’s not even good.

Very good you special because you get to take two hours on the test here, but that no that’s not even comparable.

But so you how do you what were you majoring in?


Yeah, or what were you going to mention it?


I thought I was going to major in economics.


Thank God that didn’t have a PhD and getting played.

How did you get into modeling from?


Yeah, I was at a party.

I went to a party with a friend of Yale, in the city.

They were fashioned people there.

Somebody was like, oh, wow.

And you go to Yale amazing.


And then, yeah.


And then you had kind of a, how long did that go on where you are modeling professionally?

Because you were that you were like, Europe all the time.

You have crazy stories about being on a boat Saint and shit like that.

I’m from like, see, I dropped out of Yale and 94.


Was that a hard decision?

No, it wasn’t.


I mean it will I shouldn’t say, well, I didn’t make it like immediate but like I definitely it was sort of like, okay, it was hard in the sense that it was a hard decision, but I still made it.



In a sense that like, most people that I knew were like, this is the As thing you deposit.

Yeah, but maybe do you think maybe your, you had set the mental Target or goal as getting into, Yale had?

You had the mental Target of?

I want to be a Yale graduate?


No, I didn’t have, I didn’t have the baby, the big accomplished.

No, I didn’t have the van with this time.

It wasn’t a conscious thing of like I want.

I my high school was harder than anything I’ve ever seen.

Oh, really?


It was way harder.


Okay, definitely.


Um, I mean, I know I know of That I didn’t stand up staying there long whatever.

But in terms of like, or I should say this, that it was such an intensive intense academic environment that I was burnt out.

By the time I got to go, right?

And you know, it’s funny because one of the things that people would say, it’s was like the only a you need from Yale.


Is the a Yale.

Nah, I’m just saying, well, that was cool.

But yeah, so Stanford is right.

It’s basically like everyone that gets into Stanford was getting In a 4.0.

Look, if you’ve got in you you then went there and got a fire starts getting into.

They did, they went to pass fail because it was kind of pointless.



If I book on the brown, I would have probably done pass/fail can choose their.


I think that you can I think you can actually do a you can your entire thing can be.

I think back then I’m not sure now.

But ya know by the time I got there I was burnt out and then just sort of like life took all these different changes and left turns and all this other shit where it’s like I couldn’t wait to get the fuck out of there.


Yeah, so Madeline came at the right time.

Yeah, and while everyone the majority of people that I knew and cared about and whose opinions I cared about told me, I was making a huge mistake.

Yeah, that’s my regret.

And I mean when I was going on now, I’m like that was that was pretty risky because I was basically making a decision based off of like Blind Faith and gut and the fact that like I wasn’t happy.


So I got to do something else and that’s not a luxury.

It’s a luxury that’s not thing that someone who you never wore are old kid.

And we’re trying to know I do.


Well, I don’t have a trust fund.

Yeah, I don’t have parents, right?

I have parents.


Thank, you know, I mean any have anyone to fall back on?


The only thing I fall back on was me.

So I was making a decision that people who are much more financially secure me, like you can be risky when you got a fucking bank account.

Oh, yeah, it’s harder to hours about how they talk about NCAA athletes.


Like I can’t believe he left early.

Should you know, like when they leave relatives, fuck.

You can even like a family to feed.

Yeah, what are their concerns?

Yeah, so like so, you know, making decision based off of your all, you got.

Yeah, and you have an opportunity to make some money.


So you started making money?


Good money.

It was better than I mean, $15 a month was better than it was making before.


I know.

It’s all relative.



I mean at the time yeah, I wasn’t working a lot as Model.


But I was, I was building, you know, and I was working and sixteen thousand dollars for the entire season of Punk’d but that was twice as much as I had ever met exactly those in right sitting pretty.


I probably made about the same but that was way better than yeah, you know, and you’re traveling a lot.


Yeah, starting to and you because you’re you befriend, other models.



And what impact does that have on your self-esteem?

Do you cause If it were me, I could feel like it could just as easily make it worse or better.



It was both.

It felt great to be considered, beautiful.

Yeah, and I’m not, and I don’t, I’m not saying that that’s a great thing.

I’m just saying that the time gives a fine.

This is how you felt about it.

I mean time now.

I’m like, I don’t need to, I don’t want to be told that.


Yeah, but the time again, that’s a luxury.

That can be all someone has.

I’m not just men all that.

This is just as true, but I but I, but to just be clear in terms of like I know that, that’s not that, that’s not your fat.

I needed that validation that I don’t need the validation now.

Yeah, I do.


But at the time at the time, I needed that.


Yeah, so do we considered beautiful or beautiful enough to be a model?

Was a big deal?

Yeah, to me, but then there are people obviously above you on this ladder of success.

Yeah, and then so that I can assume.


You also feel shittier because these people are above you.

Well, I think, I mean, there’s always there’s always a hierarchy, right?

Even in our business right now.

There’s like Heelers be lit.

I don’t even know want to know what list.

Fuck we are, right?


I know who cares.

We don’t run out unless I’m account where I pay my bills.

So yeah, there’s always that you and you know, everyone wants to be the coolest, you know kid in the room or whatever but I think like you’re right.


One is it is both things like parsley.

It helped my confidence level, right?


I’m a model.

Yeah, but enough feel side.

I felt I It’s still insecure.

I was still insecure about like what I look like and like, okay, what’s the aesthetic?

I didn’t really have a Vibe.

You know, I think like what was cool about models.


Now is that like, you know, just sort of like, what’s your, you know, can have a Vibe, a steak, a little claim?


I wasn’t, I didn’t care about like fashion.

As I really.

I think I wasn’t, you know, individual, you know, I don’t know anything about the Alden was like I’m cute and I can make some money off that.


Yeah, that’s all I knew you feel.

We’re did you do a Runway ever?

I did.

Do you feel weird as fuck?


Never really good at Ron Wyden.

Do very much.

I mean I did some cool shows but I was always so terrified.

Yeah, and I could never get over it.

Just the I mean, there’s so many things, I’d be happy to do in public.


I mean, the list is so big before walking down a stretch of Runway idea.

I was so self-conscious about how my body’s move in theory.

It’s habit of learning how to act is, literally what you do with your hands.

No, one talks about that.


Like I’ve taken acting classes, they I’ll tell you what the fuck do you do with your hands in a single soon?

As I yell action when you’re new?

What do I do with these big distracting hands?

Shut up in my pocket.

Should I cross my arms?

I remember you also saying, which I pass this on to someone else that that was like, the best piece of advice.


You always gave really great advice, especially when it came to like acting.

Was that you said that acting was a Confidence Game.


Do you remember saying that to?


No, but I like it.

I do remember saying that.


In that, what you’re acting I respond to, which is like, if if you make me feel confident, I’m just 20 times better.

Aha, you know, but if I’m feeling like, I can’t do this thing and you’re unhappy and I’m not doing the dance.

We’re in bad shape, so is great advice, but other people, I know, weird people.


Not to name drop.

But Channing Tatum.

I’ve been going to the motorcycle track with him and he’s so fucking good so quick.

And I’m so angry because he’s fast as shit, but he’s a dude and he was telling me he played football, he wrestled.

He did all these things, were people yell at you the whole time until your piece of shit, huh?


And that works for him.

Wow, and so like, here I totally went to like five motorcycle riding schools and he loves getting to it.

Well, whatever he and I are just completely different.

I we I aspired to be like that, but that’s not how I you should be on Bear Grylls to, you know, he was on Bear Grylls.

Yeah, he did like a backflip out of the helicopter.


You should totally.

Yeah, I don’t know.

Marshawn Marshawn was Marshawn, Lynch football player.

He did it was he was, did you see that one?

It was the best.

Because why was he scared?

Because he’s like, he’s be small, but he’s scared and he’s really, he’s like a moth to put these hands on.


Like he was like, it was amazing.

That’s all you want to see.

You want to see some what you want to see?

Everyone be the opposite of what you expect.

So if you like, Screeches on from Saved by the Bell.

You want to see him like kill a buck with his bare hands and filled dress, in five seconds.

You need to be then you want to see Mike Tyson like crying because it’s raining or something.


I mean, I don’t ever want.

We share.

He’s our favorite person, right?

You should totally be on that show.

All right, I’ll do it but confidence get.

Yeah, so you you so you go from modeling and then you start acting.

How old are you?

My sex probably, okay, Antwone Fisher is the first big thing.



And how do you get that?

I audition?

Well, I met with, as I’d done like, this MTV movie with Beyonce.

Okay, Queen, the queen or King be called Carmen like the hip-hop or so that the requirement like the based off of the Opera Carmen, but it’s like the hip hoppers, okay.


I don’t know.

Even though I don’t know what they operate is.

It’s based off of, but that’s alright, but you know, it’s a worthy of basic.



And so that was at the top of 2001 and then I was I played most deaths girlfriend who got?


And I got killed like I think before the opening credits of that movie show time with Robert De Niro and Eddie Murphy.

Like I don’t even think they’re opening.

Like I think was like during the opening credits.

I like I can.

Cold opening right Cole, open cold open.


Um, I and so I was I met.

Are you pumped to be in a scene with most def?


Well, I met him because he was also in Carmen 200.

Um, but so, I was going, I was taken around with my agent.

I was doing like me.


What is it?

General, General meetings and I was on the phone, talking about the time to code switch.


Yeah, I was on the phone and I had a curling iron my hand and it slipped and it burnt me minutes before I’m supposed to go out and get it.


So I mean I had a I did a pretty good job of getting rid of the scar.

But I mean I had a full-on face burn situation.

Very yeah, so I rolled into the meeting with like a pack of ice on my face or might have been peas or something like that and they were like, whoa, and I was like, okay.


I didn’t want to see, I didn’t want to not come.

Right, but I’m here.

And so, they gave me the script for think they’ve been.

They gave me the script.

I think of my school for Antwone Fisher.

I know what you told me about like Denzel Washington’s doing this.

I’m like, never would I have thought that I would have been in the running for really, but when it was time for auditions, I got, I was able to go in.


I got the appointment and and then I got a call back.

Yeah, that’s exciting.

Yeah, and then you did Antwone Fisher.

Yeah, and now you’ve done this kind of.

Fancy for lack of a better word movie.


You’re an errand and like a fancy movie.


So then now a lot of things start opening up.

Yeah, am I, right?

And you know, that was a lot of things, which is what usually happens, right?

Like you kind of get you got you kind of yeah, weird little things that I was on Punk’d and then I got to be in Without a Paddle.


I’m not quite positive.

How I got that.

The doors open for, but Mike Judge who I had done some episodes of King of the Hill, but once Mike Judge put me in Idiocracy.

Now, other people who love, Mike Judge were like, oh, yeah, so then Favreau, yeah, put me in a zither and that’s I think primarily based on that.


He dug.

Mike Judge.


Well fuck if I.

Yeah, so it’s weird how it oh yeah.

Doors open.

And so yeah some doors definitely opened.


And so you start becoming recognizable.

You’re in Honey.

I think that’s the first thing I knew you in his honey.


I wasn’t next year.

Yeah, and now we’re starting to meet other famous people.

This is roughly around the same time for both.

That’s right.

Two thousand two, three, four.



And what we both share in common is that we both slept with a lot of celebrities lie to you.


And I have talked a lot about the fact that we have done that when given the opportunity young, and I can only speak for myself in that, that what that’s an interesting whole journey, for me, one is I was just horny.


And that’s awesome.


Well, and I know.

Yeah, you’re young.

You’re horny and you’ve maybe seen them in something and you already thought they were attractive and that was like, you have access.

I mean, it’s access, right?

Like a friend of mine won an Oscar.

I’m not gonna say his name right?


Won an Oscar.

Yeah recently.

Okay, and I’m like, we can see recent leaks.

There’s only, ER.


Well my friend.

Okay, fine.

My friend won’t Oscar and I’m like, dude, this is great.

I mean, aside from the like career.

Opportunities are open.

Yeah, it’s like but this is like the best dating thing like you can never one.


Like, I’m bringing first, then it’s not to be creeping like, but do your whole access is just like you have different access now and there’s nothing wrong with that know that, what’s the Chris Rock joke?

Is men are, is only as faithful as their options, which is a dangerous thought.

But I’m just curious again because I think we you and I share a lot of things in common and for me, There was just again, I’m horny.


I’ve seen them before.

That’s exciting.

This is a very exciting, but what was really going on upon closer examination?

Is I too, never liked how I looked.


I thought it was funny.

I was really confident that I was funny and I could dance in those two.


Things got me into a lot of beds.

I had no business being in to but and I’ve been doing this since junior high which is, oh man, that girl’s out of my league if I can if Likes me, it’ll prove to me that maybe I’m not as unattractive.

As I think I am because that person can pick anyone and they brought me so.


And so I must be better than I think I am, right?

And so this is a myth I believed in for 30 plus years until I actually woke up in a relationship with someone who I would have thought I had no business Ever.

Getting saw them in movies for years as a kid and sad.


For me, discovered.

I don’t feel any different about my Myself.


It has zero impact on how I actually feel about myself.


Which is such a fucking bummer.

Yeah, and it took me again.

I’m weirdly grateful for the opportunity to have been able to prove this to myself, right?


I got I got to be with someone that I thought for sure would solve this for me.

It would definitely prove that.

I’m an attractive human being, right?

And it didn’t, I thought the exact same fucking way when I went to brush my teeth in the morning.

And yeah, I’m just curious if for you.

Course you were horny and young to but do you think any of that was going on?


Um, yeah.

Yeah, me and not, I never really thought of it that way, but it does make sense.

I mean, I think I think like that means similar to like modeling.

I needed that validation.

Yeah to know that I look.


I was cute.

Yeah, yeah.

Or something, you know and uh, and I think that like so that at the at the mic or by the way, you have a much better excuse for it than I do.

I just was, I don’t know why I felt that way.

I’m six foot two, Whitewood.

Wise, I’d the fucking I hit the lottery, you know, like white boy, day, all day, every day and yet I still feel that way.



You at least have the excuse where you were in a place that was either all white or you’re in a black community where you didn’t fit the ideal.

So right but I mean, but at the core of it was sort of this sense of inadequacy, right?

And so we look and so we look for validation where we can get it.



So whether it be for me, it was like, okay.

I’m validated by the fact that A time in the beauty industry or whatever or I’m validated that this guy thinks I’m cute, you know.

Well, I was getting it secondhand from you, a couple, your folks house like, goddamn Joy.


I tip my hat to you because you yeah, I know what I like about you is there was there was a level of sophistication artists Geniuses.

Oh my God, like you would have banged Einstein, right?




And I love that about you.

Yeah, in fact we used to play this.

My boyfriend in college was Einstein.

Basically, he was an inorganic biochemist.

I don’t even know what that is, but I don’t think that’s not sexy.

He didn’t even find me drugs.

Yeah, but you do you, you do I remember.


This is just a compliment.

This is the only name will say and you didn’t sleep with this person.

You did not sleep with this person, but you just said, you said out of the blue one day, you’re like, you know, if I had to pick from that whole crew who I would sleep with it, be Seth Rogen and I was like, I love you.


Well, finish the Thing versus who was it?


Oh, yeah.


In Franco’s a fucking babe.

We both agree.

He’s a babe, told me, and then you went to this other place where what the experience is going to be like with Seth.

And I just really am I just really wanted much richer experience.


For reasons.


You’d have to check on a website on my no Lou numerator.

But again, it’s those pics.

Make you so wonderful, you know, I I liked, you know, I like to keep people guessing.

Yeah, I would never, I would never feel confident in predicting what you were going to pick on any given thing whether it was what movie you like art.


Yeah, that’s a good quality.

So then the another thing that you and I both shared again in our 20s.

Yeah, kind.

No, I do.

I do.

I’m Twitter.

We’re friends that I’ve met him five times.

I thought for sure he didn’t like me with any tweeted me and then I thought, maybe he did, I still play this game in my Ahead of his likes me who doesn’t want?


It has less impact now but I still go through the steps.

It’s like muscle memory.

This point.

I was going through with the other day and I was like, why does one always the time?

What always the fucking time?

No one cares.

What are you talking about?

Don’t thinking about you know, one thing about you but you and what I have at least come to find out and this will come up when we talk about kids is I have figured out that nothing from the outside changes, how I feel on the inside.


It is truly.

It’s your own.

It’s your own Journey until you give yourself approval.

You’re fucked.

You just, you can’t make enough money.

You can’t, you can’t win enough of words.

You can’t fuck enough, people.

It has zero effect on your own self-esteem.

Gives a like you do Identify some esteem of wax and do those fucking axe T-Mobile and that’s how you get self-esteem.


So you and I both like drugs, but unlike me, you’re not an addict or by my estimation.

You’re not an addict or what?

I would call an attic of abuse, but you’ve abused which I love my favorite type of person.

Maybe, you know, my best friend.

Nate Nate.


Was this guy all through his 20s that he could do?

Every he do coke with me, but he go to bed at 5:00 and I’d stay up another day, but I always applaud.

I’m more interested.

You actually can go berserk and then just isn’t an act.

That’s kind of the dream scenario for me because I still want to get fucked up.


I just don’t want to do it.

Seven days a week and not show up for shit.

If I have to pick, I’m not No one’s got any.

I know it’s not time anymore.

No one’s got time for a cold cold, my allergy.

Um, I just think about like, the amount of time wasted.


I mean, this time, you have fun, whatever, whatever, some of my best memories.

I don’t regret it.

But the amount of time so much time wasted of like, recovering, or whatever, and it’s like, I really got the fucking time in, but it’s funny because I feel like when when you’re young or just one hour, Younger.


You got all the time in the world waiting anywhere.

You have no time.

I mean, and I’m saying that as, like, I wasn’t working.

I worked all.

I mean, I worked a lot as a model.

I wasn’t like I got a job when we once once I hit my stride, yeah, which fortunately for me happened relatively soon.


I was working all the time.

Yeah, you might have seen me in shit, but I was working a lot in your twenties.

You can sleep for hours and dark exact cannot do and also to, and also too.

I like I could sleep or not.

And work.

Yeah, because all I gotta do is not look fucked up, right?


Yeah, right.

I don’t know why I couldn’t do that.

I don’t have to talk.

I don’t cause no one cares what you say.

So like, you know, I’m not there to talk.

I’m there to fucking stand there, Rock the clothes, and then, like whatever.

So, I mean, there were some rough times.

It’s a great job for someone who likes drugs, right?


And so, then a then who eventually will catch up with you.

Yes, but, yeah, but it’s like, you have all the time all the time in the world and now there’s not enough time.

I can’t even imagine the from doing fraction of the shit from back in the day because I’m like, yeah, there’s no time.


I got no time.

Yeah, but not unlike fucking people.

I think there’s a, there’s a parallel as well with drugs, which is, for me for years.

I thought I just like how cocaine feels I like, how ecstasy feels.


I like how being drunk feels.

I now realize what I really liked about those things is how I didn’t feel.

Mmm, the real appeal of them was, I didn’t feel how I felt when I was sober.

So I would have liked any of those feelings.


Like, they’re all different Highs, but I liked all those highs.

The only High didn’t like was weed per se because it actually made me feel even more how I didn’t want to feel gotcha, which is just genetics.

I think, right?

Because you responded we differently and I do my boys.

I love, I’m a Hoover with cocaine, whatever but yeah.


I’m figuring out like, oh, I just what I liked was the relief from my head, which is very busy.

It’s too busy in a very loud voice.

In the head is your piece of shit.

You’ll never succeed, and everyone thinks your crap in your crap.

You know, right?

Do you think any of the reasons because look some people like drugs and some don’t, you know, even if they try them, they’re like, yeah, I don’t know.


And now, my opinion on those people is that they their normal state of being is probably Pleasant enough that.

Yeah, that there.

It’s not relief for them.

Do you think All any of that was relief.

Um, I mean, I like drugs like them, I’d liked I mean also to was sort of like the the scene in the social sort of inter.


I mean, I’d liked.

Yeah, that kind of thing.

Well and it definitely made me feel cool.

Yeah, because I was always terribly, uncool.

So I was always looking for something to be cool.


I will.

It immediately puts you on the same page as everyone else.

You’re doing drugs with.

Let’s do you go from like you’re looking at all the ways that you’re different from this group.


Of people you’re with or how you don’t fit in or whatever.

And then you start doing lines of coke.

And now y’all have one fucking goal.

Keep doing those long, right?

We just want to keep this shit.

You are knows right?

Which is nice, right?


Everyone’s priorities get real specific.

But yeah, I think that, like, I can’t say that my drug use was not influenced by Lack of you know, sort of selfish, you know, like that didn’t have issues.



Yeah, right, but I think that for the most part went to frame it in a way of like what?

I felt like not high.

I felt I mean, I think I felt I was, I didn’t feel like I was escaped.

I was running away from anything.

Okay, right.

I didn’t really I think mine was like partying gone too, fucking far, right?


Because they’ll do that too.

Yeah, right.



A lot of people do it in our help.

Healthy and have great self-esteem and whatever.

That wasn’t my yeah.

Mine was like, will you still take fun to follow like this too much.

You can have too much fun.


Yeah, you really can’t.

And and you could die from too much fun.

Yeah, you know, people write.

I know a lot of people.

Yeah, this is a complement.

This is not a judgment.

You have kind of a, you have a again.

This is the wrong word, but a curated lifestyle in that you, you have A Bohemian Vibe.


So when you said, like, it was a part of the I can see that I like oh, this is a component of this Cool vibe.

I have, you know, or this as my friend called it, you live a chosen life.

All right.

I shoot like I’ve chosen curators the yeah, you’re choosing shit out of a pile.



I’ve created this life from yes, but you’ve always had a specific style like a clothing style.

You have had an aesthetic that’s had this one is like, it’s a touch.

Bohemian touch Bohemian with a little Oh something, something dash of this that.

Yeah, a little sprinkle this little dash of that.


Yeah, but, you know, peppering of this in the years that we spent a lot of time together, like whatever that was seven years or something.

You were processing a ton of mom’s stuff, right?

Let’s seem to be the period where you really kind of tackled all that you did a lot of therapy about that.

And so is it possible that maybe you were a little more bummed than you realize you were in your 20s?


Because that was all sitting there, right?

That was fun.

I mean, like what?

I’ll all those things on your mind.

Say one thing.

This is the thing I have to.

I have to imagine for me as I started having success.

I ended up weirdly becoming more resentful at my dad.


This is all so fucked up, but for me, I felt like I wanted that male in my life who I respected my whole life to then Pat me on the back and say, great job, son.

You worked hard, and I’m so proud of you but because my dad at At times, not always, lovely man was kind of using my success to get his own attention and and I didn’t respect some of his decisions.


So it’s the, the pat on the back, didn’t feel like what I wanted to feel like I have to imagine, it’s you had to add some of that work.

You’ve done all this stuff.

It’s really amazing and then you don’t have this relationship with.

Your mom is who you really want to hear like, oh my God.

I’m so proud of what the woman you’ve become right in the even like like like your situation with your dad.


She did say that, I’m not going to believe you.

Yes is full of shit because of what they can’t win.

I’ve no clue.

Yeah, I mean, but at the same time, it’s like while we can why I’ve learned to have to truly forgive her to truly, honestly, forgive her for the things that she did and to have compassion for her.



And some empathy.

It doesn’t negate and I realized I like I at times, Was crueler than I needed to be.

Oh, yeah, but it doesn’t negate the shit that she did or didn’t do.


Legitimate shit.



That made it hard for me at the time of being young woman or whatever to look past because like that was impossible shit to look.

Yeah, right.

And I didn’t have the tools to even try and figure that out.

Yeah, you know, I didn’t really learn the tools until too late.



Well, you know, it’s interesting because the Russians say too late, but until much later on.


It’s really hard to recognize that life is fucking messy in your, in your parents are a part of this messy life.

And especially when now, now, that we’re older and you go back and you go.


Well, Jesus Christ, I’m furious at my dad for a decision.

He made when I was 24 years old.

Two kids like, if, when I was 24, yes, like what did you expect from a 50/50?

No, watch my kid.



And you, you it’s so hard to break out of your first person perspective.

And that’s why parenting is so hard.

I mean, like this, when people ask me when I’m like, I’m very clear.

I don’t want to fucking even enter into that shit, man.

I’m good, like more powers that anybody who and I hope that people when you do have kids and you take that shit seriously and you work on your shift.


So, you know ruin your kids and you but even still evil best intentions.

Oh, you’re gonna fuck up.

You gonna fuck up because you have to because you’re human life.

Like that’s a job that you should be.

It should be a conscious like decision as me.

Your number one job is your number one job?



I mean, yeah, I think so again, but they’re definitely motion not have kids.

Yeah, probably definitely people who I don’t know if David Duke reproduce, but I wish he had.

So over the years.


I love to argue as, you know, I loved it.

I’d say I could class it up and say, I love the debate, but I love to argue loves to argue.

I love to argue and debate and I got to say that you more than any other person has dramatically.

One some long-term debates, even though I know when I I know one that I’ve won the there’s a few, there’s a few and it’s interesting cuz well, I appreciate you because it’s wonderful to have someone in your life that proves you wrong often, and you’ve done that a few times and some landmark cases and you’re so big and you’re also may have to come back like you.



Yeah, it’s never been in the moment.

It’s always like I think about it for a couple that’s okay.

And that’s okay.

Yeah, and I hear other people like repeating my own opinion to me and I go oh that does smell.

That’s that’s that’s kind of shitty.

Yeah, thanks or just you’re trapped in your own perspective, which is almost impossible not to do right.


So one of the the long-term debates we had was about Chris Brown because I was so irate about Chris Brown.

I wanted to find him and fight him.

I couldn’t say Enough bad shit about Chris Brown.


And you pointed out that the reaction?


It was lopsided right?

You are obviously not condoning any domestic about him.

Yeah, but but but you I said this guy’s a fucking piece of shit.

Blah blah blah.

And you’re like, yeah.

He’s a piece of shit, but he’s no bigger piece of shit than the countless white dudes, who you haven’t, caught beating their wives or doing other types shit.


And they get like, shows and movies and yes, and riches.


Yeah, and then that ice tried to say all.

I think it’s a lopsided reaction because we all already love Rihanna, like, for me.

I love Rihanna and to see her face afterwards.


Sent me into like a fury, right?

I love her too.

But then you pointed out that these are just public knowledge cases.

This is an inside.

Oh God.

Don’t even blow up my spot right?

Did I say something crazy?

You say anything crazy.

Eyes are like Charlie Sheen’s.


Been arrested.

Oh God.



One or two people.

Yeah, and then Brolin right.

Has been a fairly, you know, Ozzy Osbourne back in the day.


Now we’re, you know, we’re talking about domestic violence, right?

But now we see that, there’s a whole other, there was a whole other lots of shit going on of of white dudes Behaving Badly, although now, we’re seeing that it’s not just white dudes, obviously, but that was just a minute general manager poison in their body.


It’s called testosterone.

So yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Going to zoom.

I feel like we might get it.

None of that is right.

But yeah, you pointed out that there were like, well, when I said Rihanna, I’m like, well, no, we already love Rihanna and you were like, well Josh, Brolin was, he was married to Diane Lang.


Yeah, is that who it is?

Yeah, we’re like, you love her right?

And I’m like, yeah, that’s Cherry right in The Outsiders.


I love her like, huh?

And that’s what that is.

We’re saying.

And when I really like molded over for days at a time, I was like, huh?

I don’t if I’m being honest with myself, when I picture Josh Brolin, he’s Actor.


I love I don’t see him the way I saw Chris Brown and when I picture Charlie Sheen I go.

Oh, that’s that’s one fucked-up Guy, Crazy Ozzy.



And this one heads off a bath.



It’s a whole persona, but no he beat up Sharon who I love, personally I love and then she’s been honest about that.

He’s been on and you’re right man.

I really it’s way easier for me to see Chris.

As brown as an actual like bad person.


Whereas I’ll give everyone this spectrum.

I’ll go like, oh, yeah, he, you know, so, and so does too many drugs, but there is other stuff, right?

Which by the way, I believe is the right perspective.

In general, just people aren’t fucking good or bad.

That’s not evil or sayings.

We’re all you got something in this sort of binary way because like bad people, do good things, good people do bad things and in everything in happy mood lie, right?


And and if I can go off on a tangent, I think what’s crazy is.

We are getting Into this world of binary opposition.

Right words.


Good or they’re evil.

And then what we’re going to do is is if someone does something bad, we’re going to lose everything great that they do.


So, Martin Luther King, he had orgies, they were recorded by the FBI.


Are they really?


There’s he, well.

They might get a room at an orgy.

Yeah, I’m gonna be yeah, but he wasn’t my sister.

Of the Civil Rights Movement to punish him.


You know, I’m saying or JFK?

Who was fucking White House?

Staffers in the hotel pool.

Do we deny ourselves JFK?

It’s just all very by the way.

I’m not saying yes or no.

All I’m saying is wow.

This is a tricky situation where we’re talking about.


There’s a lot of showing the baby out with the bath.

There’s a lot of the gray, there’s so much great.

There’s more great than there is black or yeah, definitely and It’s very hard for us.

It’s like a thin sliver black to the fence were white and their rest is just Shades of Grey like and it a lot of great.


You have charcoal gray gives us anxiety because it’s hard to come up with a framework by which we are going to evaluate all these scenarios and then administer some kind of punishment and that I think just that alone is too daunting for people.

Yeah, so it’s just almost out of laziness that we have to go good or bad, good or bad.


Yeah, and you know, it’s hard fucking work, but those those Options.

Just have to be made.

Well, I mean going back to our parents, for instance, right?

But for so long, I saw my mother’s being a Monster.

Yeah, I’m going off of I’m just going off of what I saw.


Yeah, and my experience which, by the way, she was only with you what 10% of her life.

So you’re also seeing 10% of your mom, right?

I like with you 90% of the day, right?

But like I’m going off experience and what I see and what I hear.

Mmm, um, and so based on that.


It’s It’s fair to assume why I would think that she was a monster or she was a bitch or whatever.

Whatever right?

Yeah, but one I got when I got older and started to sort of see all that like, okay.

Well she was that way because of also say so she was 15, but how old was your dad?

That’s so relevant.


This is what you just wrote about.

He was not 15.

He was a major 30s.

I don’t know the exact age was he was, he was a, he was a married man with children.



It was an adult it into that.

When you think about that scenario.


Of like a fucking dude with kids and a wife knocking up another 15 year old.

My mother was basically trapped in trauma for ho, ho, ho her whole life, but I did not know that.

Yeah, so it’s like, what?

When you knew it, it’s not the same.

You won’t even when I found out because of where I still didn’t have the tools to deal with her and, you know, so it still didn’t really it mattered but it didn’t really.


I still wasn’t able to cope with well her.


Oh, but as I got older and Learn the tools, right?

Then I started to see.



She did dada dada dada, dada, but she did that because so they like it wasn’t.

She wasn’t just evil for evil sake.




No, that’s what I could have.

I could have easily have, you know, so that’s what that’s what I said to really Embrace this sort of greatness of things.

Yeah, and also, yeah, you know what it is and I think a lot of people have a hard time doing this.

Is they have a hard time distinguishing between an explanation and an excuse.


So like when tiger Woods went on TV and said I had all these Affairs or whatever and I’m a sex addict people said, oh, that’s a fucking excuse and I was like, no, hold on.

He’s that it’s not an excuse.

He’s just explaining to you.


What’s happening, right?

You know, that’s my takeaway from that whole scenario but likewise with your parents.

I know that when I heard the explanation of why my dad was the way he was, I was hearing an excuse and I was going.

Yeah, that’s exactly.

Exactly game.


I agree.

I do all this shit.

I agree.

But now years later I’m like, oh my God, it’s amazing.



No, that’s probably why I don’t need to own up to this or I’m not sorry, but that’s not what it’s saying.

It’s just going.

Oh, you know, just so you know, here’s how I got to this point.

I really terrible and I own it, right.


And here’s how I got here, right here, interested, and I am interested in, why how you got there?


But you gotta, you gotta, you gotta have as good, a good spot in your heart.

You should write that down.

Okay, I’m gonna But the Chris Brown was a good one, which I totally was wrong.


Well, yeah, one was, and I leading up to this.

I was trying to recollect my actual argument because I know my arguments going to sound so shitty right now, but because this is all I really remember about it, but the year in which there was tons of outrage, that there weren’t more black nominated, folks, for the Academy Awards.


Yeah, here is my take and let me just try to get it out for you point out how she what a bad Theory.

This is nothing.

I remember would have here.

Was my argument.

You can’t black community.

There’s I’m addressing everyone, in the black community.

You can’t be angry that there’s no Oscar nominated.


Black directors, writers, actors, films films.

Because you don’t, you can’t just be mad that they’re not nominated.

If you’re not supporting the type of movies and projects that get nominated.

So, and that year you had concussion, which was fucking Brilliant.


And it made $5, and then you had a Madea movie that made a bazillion dollars.

And I was saying, well, if you’re going to just go to the Madea movies, they’re not going to make the concussion movies.

That’s, that’s just, that’s the mechanics.

Always, you’re not necessarily like, it’s not but the, but he was one of the main complaints of why he didn’t get nominated.


That was that was hard regardless.

He’s definitely in that conversation, right?

So my point was, you can’t not support.

Those type of movies and be They’re not getting made and then mad that they’re people in them are not getting nominated.

Like you can only blame other people so much for the what’s now happening way Downstream.


The award is so Downstream, if there was already a movie made, there was a movie.

Guerrilla point was something else though.

Nobody, but you got another point to what was it?

You remember a point that I remember your point was like, well, no.

No, I don’t remember anything.

You just said, oh, you know, like and that doesn’t make sense, but Well, no, because I’ll know I told it to you because you had the best knockout punch.


Okay, but I say, thanks, which I hadn’t even thought of his Hugo.

White people ain’t going to these movies that are nominated and I was like, oh, knockout punch.

Okay, shoot.

None of those values.

That was my response.

But I thought your, I thought your other point was that black people should just never be nominated.


It wasn’t.

No, it was nothing but like about like, well, you know, this will be getting in the the market and like the audience and then these movies like kind of these movies perform better or something like that and I thought my it was like, you know, but was mostly is blaming.

You want to see the fucking King.



Right, well, that one they did but so many I didn’t go see what Moonlight.

They didn’t go.

See, we know Moonlight is that’s black.

Yeah, but you know I’m saying, there’s always there’s a lot of white movie that nobody knows exactly five dollars because they’re not made to make money.


They’re made for perceive me for that reason of sort of prestige and that kind of thing that they make money great.

I mean, they will eventually make money but like let’s just even be more honest.

They’re all made with the Hope by the guy who or woman who bets on that movie that The star power will take it out of the genre and it will make money.


So, it is, it is a leap of faith.

They don’t, they actually do.

Believe, we’re gonna cast Brad Pitt in Babel.

So it will make money even though we’re going to make Babel.

Yeah, No One’s Gonna See Babble, but we put Brad Pitt in it, then they will, whereas that’s a trickier bat with Denzel Washington because he’s a bad example, because white folks go see his movies like crazy, but you know what I’m saying?


Well, me the well, I think that whole idea of sort of who’s who means something, who doesn’t mean sort of, because you can still put a That’s why the whole, I mean, I think there’s certain people there’s not as many people that put people in the seats out.

There used to be.

Oh, not at all.

Not at all.

Like that whole idea of like, oh, well this person doesn’t mean anything that person means something like yeah, you can you can put that white stars.


I mean shit and people still ain’t gonna go fucking see that shit.

So you might just put somebody on it.

Weirdly Denzel’s one of them may be the only people that still people go see that fucking movie for the most part.

It doesn’t seem to man Johnson.

No, but you put Dwayne Johnson and movie where he’s not kicking someone’s ass at some point.

I don’t think I mean, I think that he’s actually, I mean he’s I think that He’s like was pretty indestructible.


I think he’s kind of, I don’t think you can put him in a drama.

Oh, you know where he’s got cancer.

I don’t know.

I, first of all, I would be, I don’t want him to be the drummer.

It does all be hard for him to shave Wayne for that role.

But, you know, if I think, I think like, at the end of the day, I think that the core of that is basically what we’re saying is that like the fucking criteria for shit, is way different for black people in.


It is for white people.

I want people to just be like, okay, we’re going to make this like bullshit as movie and nobody else even and then I will ask you got to jump through whose well, well my own My critique doesn’t sell overseas.

You’re just bullshitting.

He’s overseas either but she made it like one.



So again, you really, really want that.

I don’t think you ever thought of made the point.

You thought I was making, what is the point you think I was making?

Um, the I thought I was more about it.

For some reason.

I thought you meant more like International or sort of like people going to see or like movies.


I prefer movies performing.

Well what what I can tell you show up.

I don’t think that and I try not to I’m Trying not to talk about movies as black movies, White movies, trying to get away from that.

Even that’s what the industry like sees it as.


But like, black people will go show up for some shit.

Women will go show for some shit.

Make some shit that people want to see and they will show up.

Yes, but but a, so, yes, but what’s unfair about that is the people that the movies that people show up to see, are generally not the movies that are nominated.


That’s right.

Well, that’s enough.

And that’s never goes but it’s black, white or whatever.

Like that’s just like what’s your point?

The white movie still get made?

Oh, yeah.


And I mean and it is hard to make a moving up regardless, right?

It’s a matter who even if you are white, yes, but yes.

Is easier.

And you and I have talked about this in this is I feel like a good time to bring this up.


Is this term white privilege?

I’ve first and foremost completely understand and believe it.

Thank God.

Yeah, thank you.

Remember, we went and saw two, lib Kweli, and you going to have them on your show.

I hope to you better ask him that.


Sure but yeah, you are going to want wall.

Remember we all now.

He when we went saw him on stage is he which I thought was cool as he goes.

Well, first of all, let me tell you my privilege.


I’m a man.

That’s a big win for me.

I was born in America.

That’s a huge win for me.


And he kind of goes through it, which I thought was really cool.

But the reason I think that the term White Privilege, why it’s so easy to want to fight back from that.


If you’re white, is, nobody’s life feels privileged.

No one feels like their life hasn’t been a struggle.

So I am born on a dirt road, dyslexic, all these things.

Like to me, it is felt like a struggle.

So, too Are a Human Being not, but, but, but but the humans your race, it does, it does to it.


It does because being a black person who grew up in a dirt-poor tro, don’t Road and dislikes.

It is even worse because they don’t have that st.

That leveled privet.


But I do believe if you’re a white woman in a trailer right now, have five kids in Tennessee, like most prettily.


You that your white privilege, right?

I can see where you go.

Fuck that what privilege?

This is a shitty existence.

Where’s my?

You know, yeah.

Yeah, it is true.

I’m not denying.

There’s huge advantages when every system in the country is run by white people.


There’s no denying that but it’s just a tricky term.

I think it’s a it can be a triggering term because we all kind of feel like life is fucking hard and it’s a struggle, right?

But it’s not as hard of struggle.

You know, I’m saying?

I almost wish it was like, I wish the term was less shitty.


No I’m saying like, yeah you you benefit from Come from less shitty.


Well, I mean II, see your point in that and I can say, yes, if someone who is white woman with with a bunch of kids low-income.

Yeah, is she gonna be like, how am I if this is but but let’s look at the word print, you knows.


But let’s look at it in a way that’s like, you know, it’s not but like, what necessarily comes right into your pocket.

Like, you’re not like walking.

Oh, yeah.

I’m privileged as I can.

I’m privileged to me is you’re born with a trust fund, which is like yours was.

See you see?

We have to start to think.

Of it in a more nuanced way, right?

Because which is why I’m critical of the word.


I think there’s a better word for this.

What is a very true evaluation of America.

I feel like there’s a better word and there could be, I think that for lack of a better word.

Yeah, that’s where we are.


And I think that like, if I delete from your perspective, it is straight privilege.


But again, going going to that what tell it was saying because week he went down.

Like, he’s like, so He’s Able Body that’s privileged.

Yeah, right.

He’s a man.

He’s a heterosexual man.

Counted motherfucker.

He’s talented group.

And so he’s recognizing errands for professors.

So he’s recognized for his educate.


So he’s recognizing the Privileges and how that doesn’t mean that like he has.

So he does have a an advantage.


When you look at those facts, right?

And so don’t make your phone ring.

No, but it’s what it is.



So like for me for myself, I’m privileged that you know, I’ve benefited from being light-skinned.

Prevalence rate that that like, that’s not something that I’m like.

Oh, yeah.

I got that pretty much on aware that privilege on my fucking thing.


But that’s what I mean.

I’m aware that like, to be within a racist system or, or white sis, why support like that has been that has had currency in some way and I’m in for that.

So you’re aware of that.

I’m aware of that, right?


But how much how often are you when you’re like, you’re writing yourself narrative.

This is my life.

I came from here.

I ended up here.

I did these things I did that.

That thing, how much are you going?

Well, and I had a, I had a little advantage in that.

I was light skinned.

Is that actually part of your thinking when you’re telling your own story.


Um, you know, what?

Yes, it has to be.

It is yes, because it means a conscious decision, but it requires an awareness of the fact that, like, I exist, not just not.

I’m here, not just because of talent and my work ethic.

There’s other things that played into it the same way that white look for you.


For instance, like, it’s not, you’re not, Here.

Because you’re talented, you’re funny.

All these things, right?

And then then the thing that kind of helps you over.

I just fucking you’re a white dude.

White boy day.

You’re a heterosexual man.

You’re able body.

These are the Privileges that you and I miss not being like, oh, that doesn’t make you a racist.


It doesn’t make you homophobic to acknowledge that you’ve had certain advantages that push you over the edge where there’s a lot of people who don’t have that.


So it’s like by you having those those privileges.

Well, that’s was we You’ve, you know, we’ve enjoyed it.

I don’t even be like Oh, I’m enjoying my privilege but it’s like these it’s helped us.



Well, it is aware of that.

It is now something I think about when I’m kind of getting circular in an argument, right?

And and I’m not finding my theory is finding purchase.

One of the cases was in, we’re not going to use names but a sexual harassment case.

That’s currently out there about a dude.


And I said to you don’t, you know, if this happened to me, right?

Bother me, right, right, right.

Who I wouldn’t give a shit.

But then I remember I’m 63.

I’m white.

I don’t regularly feel powerless.

It’s not a normal.


Feeling for me to feel like this system is against me.


So I, of course, I don’t feel I can laugh things off because I’m not prone to feeling powerless.

Yeah, and that’s important for me to remember and it’s fucking hard to remember because you’re looking out your own window and that’s okay because like this is not going to be this is not, we can’t.


Like neatly unpack, all these things are gonna get messy and it’s like, yeah, there is probably a better word for but it’s what it is is like it’s good for people to recognize that.

We all have, not all of us, but many of us are some of us have certain advantages and Privileges and acknowledging those things does it.


So again the poor white woman with with children, you know with kids living in a trailer, you know you she’s still White.

Yeah, so is like so so so so so then again that that’s different from a black woman with five children.


That’s another purse, right joke.

We don’t Zan.


Like the dentist.

Well, that’s a janitor and side of Madison Square Garden.

You remember that when he has to stand up routine.

He’s like there’s a white janitor inside here of Madison Square Gardens, that would not trade places with me Richie’s.


Like I’m gonna see how this plays out being white.

So so it’s like it’s not about like food.

Whose pain is worth, whatever it is recognizing even if you are not benefiting because like that problem is not the fact that like white privilege workout for it’s like geez victim of a capitalist system more so than anything it was recognizing that even if you are not reaping the rewards of your privilege, like, in a tangible way, that is putting money in your pocket, cause that’s really what we’re all trying to get down to right.



You still benefit from that by by your very existence.


It’s not accusing anybody.

Or anything.

And so we just have to kind of broaden our, our our awareness.

Yeah, on what that means.

Well and then sadly, it’s all it’s, there’s so many layers.


Like what you end up doing, is you just getting further and further Upstream.

So it’s like I’ve seen it with bow and I wear few years ago.

I was making more movies than she was making movies, but based on really nothing.

And so, we were talking about that and she’s like, they, maybe you’re paying you more because you’re a man.


And I said, well, Well, but I also walk away from offers.

I negotiate harder than you do, which is a very male thing to do.


So part of it is, yes.

They’re just going to they’re going to try to pay her as little as humanly possible.

Some of it’s incumbent on her, to take a harder line, and be able to walk away from shit.


But that’s in a very, that’s a very male-female thing and it is unfortunate.

Then I go even further upstream and I go it’s not fair that this world is constructed in a way where she would have to act more like me to get Equal and treatment and pay.

So it’s like and then I keep going backwards, right?


Well, and also it’s on you you got to demand more and that’s it for the flip side of that.

Is that like then that’s putting the onus on the victims or that’s when the onus on the the least advantage to advocate for them.

So now mind you.

Yes, there’s certain things that we we do have to be better.


Advocates for ourselves in general.


Human, but it takes the it takes the responsibility.

The off the powers that be you are saying so it’s like while you have to be the best Advocate also systematically the system itself needs to change.


So if you can be your best Advocate, but sometimes you’re going to have to take less because that’s what it is.

Whatever you can decide if you want to walk away or not, whatever.

But it’s like I would get more like mad at the system.

The fact that she has to like, go that route.

There’s not a more Equitable.


It’s complicated because yeah, well, you have to start by going, they’re going to try to pay all of us that Least amount possible.


So, especially black.

I mean, people of color.

I’m glad that’s coming up into the conversation because that was, that was like a talk about a fucking like, well-known Secret, at least amongst us.


Well, yeah, we were doing paid less than yeah.

Well, what happens a lot?

I think white people with the same or less credit than we were yesterday and I’m a victim of this.

I’m not a victim of this II will, and I willingly do this myself, which is you go.


Oh, well, Obama.


So I have an example of black folks, succeeding in a manner that now I don’t have to think about it.

And then what’s been well known for years is that some of the biggest movie stars have been blocked for the last 30 years and they’ve gotten the biggest paycheck, Eddie Murphy Denzel all these people.


So you just go.

Oh, they’re paying black folks.

The same because I the ones that are getting the most noise.

Are these outrageous paychecks, right?

So, I’m actually not thinking about what Joy Bryant making on Parenthood versus what Lauren G making, or anyone else’s rights, or just even then.

Bring it down, just gender-wise.



Um, this actress over here is making versus what Angelina Jolie, just because like, this woman is making this amount of money or that.

Yeah, exactly.

You feeling over there?


All right, because it’s again, that’s the one percent, right?


Yes, you’re hearing the exception.


Not the rule.

Yeah, because the exception makes a headline.

Yes, all I’m really aware of.

Well, I remember having a conversation with an actor friend of mine like, Over five years ago, we’re talking about, you know, the black rate which I won’t use the word that we was using, just cuz I’m like, what are you all soon as the mind.


But we were talking about how we neither one of us, while both of us that up until that point had done some cool stuff and you know, we’re known visible enough.

Neither one of us had the power to really come out and call that shit.

Yeah, what else?


You got a pass right to get what you want.


So we didn’t have the power to actually Um, publicly expressed that there is a pay inequity going on between artists of color and white artists, right?

With sometimes the same or less credits, like hands down.


It’s not even like an exaggeration.

Is not like.


I didn’t know.

But like objective.

Yeah, but like that person did not do as many things as I do.

Want to fuck anyone on this side.

Make it more than me.

We all know why.

Yes, and so we were saying how it would take someone with a bigger name to really come out and Say that.


Well the people with a bigger name a maken what we making.


And I’m not gonna sound and everything is all relative.

Right, you know, like make a good living, blah, blah, blah, but like those people are not going to talk about that and we were doing good and there’s people doing we’re doing bad but we’re getting.


Yeah, who are we getting as much as what?

Yeah, our white counterparts know and of course, there are people making way less than I.

Yes, right for same thing.

Now, we Flash Forward years later where I think Viola Davis might have been the first person to really bring up the pay inequity.

Amongst artists of color versus white like the first one, uh-huh, and now we can talk about it, right?


Because now we’re also talking about, you know, the the pay inequity as as it applies to women.

Yeah, we talked about that.

Now again is a much more complicated conversation than anyone is having.

What the pad have to have Bell here, to explain to you about it?


Because she got out in front of that was really vocal about that.

But then it’s a much deeper deeper deeper issue.

Than just, it’s not black and white.

Women are making less than men.

It’s very complicated.

Well, it’s all complicated.



Yeah, but there is no, you’re really currently, or maybe every generation is felt like this.


There’s really no road.

That is the middle, right?

That is like, there’s issues on all sides of this.

Everyone, we really want there to be a good guy and a bad guy in all these debates.

And we want the bad guy to change but it all has to evolve like everyone on all sides.



Has to evolve.

I think.

I think that like they’re definitely evolved and there’s different levels of consciousness that needs that need to happen.

That’s why I like all these conversations that we’re having, even though sometimes it’s like, you know, it gets messy or you know, what is about racism or sexism?


Whatever, gets messy or sort of like your the pendulum goes from.

Once you know, we’re just trying to retract, we got it.

We got to go through this phase for not, trying to figure out like a way forward and until there’s more diversity in general in terms of behind the camera.


But in terms of like the people, the system, the system.

Yeah, whether it’s like that’s gender racial at whatever.

That’s then we’re going to really start to see some change but like it’s hard and you actually send this to everybody saying this like talking about like, well who the fuck’s gonna give up their power, this We’ll cover season of you and I had and it’s like yeah.


No One’s Gonna just a lot of people aren’t going to like willingly.

Give up their power, right?

They have to be sort of held accountable or have their their their feet held to the fire.

But the issue is that like it does take.


Yeah, it does take white heterosexual dudes because since they control everything linked to and it takes people like you like for instance like you’re a director.


Yeah, so, how can You’re not going to run to the store and buy you better.

Hire more ready.

But what you gonna do?

Like, I’ll have a couple fights.

You have some fight.

I have a lot of fights to have when I direct a movie.

I have a lot of fights.

I have to fight for an editor.

I had to fight for a production designer.

I have to fight for my wedding budget.


I have to fight for all these things, and then I gotta fight forecast.

And so I maybe have in me, eight fights to win.

And yes, if I’ve got to prioritize me selfishly, whether making the movie I wanted to make, or an obligation to make.

By the way, my movie was super black white.


Manic everything just by.

I don’t know they didn’t and that’s not in front of the cam.

Talk about the entire scope.

Yeah, I think the only what my production designer is Palestinian everyone else.

So that was just saying that like all those complicated, all those things are true.


But it’s like, it takes people who have some power at some particular time to make choices and to do dink things differently than before.

So that’s making sure that your your set could.

I might even I am talking about in front of Yeah, I’m so I’m just come out like just a lead up to that is to make sure that there’s there that that your sets and the maybe it’s like you is but you telling the people who were there to do what the fuck you telling them do is make sure that hiring practices of from crew is like in that it’s about 50/50 know it’s about.


Like there’s there needs to be some parity to knees in terms of gender race.

Yeah, you know say so that your so that you’re actually being a part of the solution.

Well, but you almost To witness it in my defense.

You almost need to witness it to realize because what you’ll start thinking, or I start thinking is and I think you and I debated this in the past is it’s interesting that everyone’s concerned that there would be lets say black folks are 15% of the population.


I don’t know the numbers that they should at least be 15% of the directors, right?

Well, no one’s talking about making sure their 15% of craft service or 15% of electrical and I said, oh, it’s crazy.

Every wants to start.

The very top but no one’s even at the Bottom Rung to work their way up the chain.


And I think I was critical that like, why isn’t anyone like no one’s fighting to be a fucking gaffer.

They just want to go straight to I’m going to fight to be addressed.

Well, no.

No, but people are fighting Albert and by God, there were a lot of black folks.


All of a sudden I saw on set and I was like, oh there are more black people that do all those jobs and I’m aware of right, right.

Because I’m only on the set.

Mom and women, you know, so yeah, so like that their author.

They they need the opportunities.

Yeah. 22 then rise up cousin.


Think about like the a department, right?

Yeah, like you come up you hire more like ipas and then you concentrate, you know, like yes, there’s a chain that they work up a chain or, or electrical, or or transpo hair makeup, like it needs to just be more reflective of what’s going on.



And so, so everyone can do anyone with any amount of power like and we have to sort of assess when we’re, you know, as creators whatever as we as we sign up for Job 1.

Hey, what’s my power Dynamic?

Yeah, I mean, well, can, you know, I want to say this is something that Bell and I often have debated at home.


It actually requires that you break out of the Paradigm that there are a finite amount of resources.


See, this is what plagued the early monetization system in America, right?

When we had a gold Under there is a finite amount of gold.

So what you end up doing is you keep revaluing the dollar against the gold but you’re dealing with a finite amount of something.


And so the economy actually can’t expand into Oblivion because we are locked into this finite concept of gold.

And it wasn’t until the Civil War when they started issuing money, that wasn’t locked to this finite amount that the economy explodes and now you realize, oh, everyone can have a lot if we break this idea that there’s this, we’re all fighting over this tiny.


Bread and so Bell will go.

Well, we can’t pay that person this.

And then this person this because then you know, I don’t know how she always says it.

But basically and I’ll say to her.

No everyone really.

In theory can be millionaires.


Like there is no limit.

It’s just when we reassess, how much shit there is for all of us, right?

You got to break out of this notion that if I if someone else comes up, I’m not going down, right?

That’s exactly.

Yeah, not given.


So the goal isn’t the goal is for Everyone to have white privilege, right?


Not Mom, not for you to lose your white privilege for everyone to have the same privileges you that.

I wouldn’t.

I see what you’re saying.

I wouldn’t I wouldn’t phrase it as everyone have because I don’t know.

I mean, I wouldn’t I’m saying whatever whatever comes we’ll say that I would want to have white privilege, iPhone comfortable with that.



Well, I see what you do, whatever advantages you have is for people to have some kind of advantage in life, right?

Everyone to have the advantage.

Now, you want me to have less?

I don’t think the goal should be for me to have less opportunity.

I think the goal should be for everyone to have the exact same great opportunity that I think that is the American ideal is for everyone to have an opportunity and have the equal access.


It just like people fucked it up along the way.

Yes, but it’s easy to think that.

Oh, and let’s hash in order for somebody to come up.

I got it.

I got it.

I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s the, that’s the problem.

I think with like, yeah, you’re right.

Is when how weird that I go.


Why the Goshen be for me to give something up?

The goal should be to give everybody this great thing I have, right?

That’s what.

Yeah, but it’s it requires a total shift in thinking.


And to not feel threatened that like that, that just because there’s people with, you know, who are looking for opportunity.


That means like listen, then the day you gon get some jobs and you not gonna get some jobs, that ain’t got shit to do with nothing.

Because this is the way that the ball that that it, that it goes, but you should not have a nun.

Unfair advantage to getting those jobs and then be mad when we want to come around.


Get that job because you’ve enjoyed that.

Yeah, advantage.

That’s not.

That’s not cool.

So I think that’s where for me like when I look at just talking about this business, right?

And I look at, you know, people look anybody that has any type of power especially if your whites.


Okay, and especially if you’re a male, I feel like there are things That you can do that.

Well, fucking like, give a fucking middle finger to the system and really start to make things at more Equitable.

You can’t shoulder everything and it sounded like, oh, you have to have this quote.


No, but it’s sort of like, you know, other for instance, like, you know, working on a show where it’s about women, right?

And there’s a lot of women on set, but there’s only a handful of women of color, well problem, you know, I’m saying like, yeah, but like, that’s a problem.


Well, and let’s say this, this is why this is a very hard problem to tackle because All these people are needed, but the people who are currently in power, also should be writing their story, which is tricky.

I should write my story.


You know, I’m saying, let’s just start with the very first rule of writing and storytelling is tell what, you know, tell your story.

So, it is a, it is a trap and a cycle.

That’s very hard to break because currently, the people who have the ability to get something made or telling their story, which is normal, their store isn’t far.


Male or their story isn’t black.

Or their story isn’t Hispanic.

It’s their stories.

That’s cool.

Yeah, but you see what I’m saying is what we need is more of those stories.

We need more black stories.

We need more female stories.

We need all these things been on.

But even, but the thing is even on a story that is told from our white person Tarantino’s doing the blackest movies, which is ironic.



No, my point is this it’s not so much about the storytelling per se because like you’re telling a story from a white perspective and a white straight.

Eight male perspective.

That’s okay.

I’m talking about behind the scenes.

You don’t need all the gaffer’s being white.

I’m sorry.


You don’t need transpo.

All being what?

That’s not what I’m talking about.

I’m talking about the, the above the line is.

Yeah, I mean, but globally, it needs it.

It’s like the problem of a lack of inclusiveness is a pervasive problem throughout the entire industry.


So we were talking about yeah.

Everyone’s talking about directors.

What about blackout?

I’m talking about Gaffers.

Talking about that.

Yeah, because I can step on a job.

I agree.

And I want a job where like, and that is up to me.

If I make a movie again, which is like, I gotta go out of my way, which I should.


I got to go out of my way to go.

Like, are there any black?

Electrician options?

I can interview, you know, like yeah, but it does require.

It’s my crime Consciousness.

My point exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

And it will require until is a part of that like like you’re, you know, that’s a part of your shit like this is what I I want me like, look at every morning a dude, Renee is a great example of, you know, of course, they’ve done studies that show that like when women are, you know, in positions of leadership, that they’re going to be more women there, right?


So she happens.

She’s a woman says anymore.

It’s going to have more, you know, gender parity.

She’s also blood was to have more diversity racial or ethnic diversity.

It’s like, but we have to make a commitment and it’s not just, you know, it’s all of us, right?

So it’s like, Especially if you have that power, so it’s like you just it just takes a little bit more effort to be like to consider outside of what we you know any cool, you know, this is make sure that for gender racial ethnic or whatever like that.


We have a as diverse team as possible.


What’s it?

Yeah, and it’s got to be a conscious decision.

It’s not yet.

It has to be until until it tells not until it’s not like nothing’s going to change.


Until people do that.

And if there’s not that many black directors, who the fuck on do it, right?



So, you know, let’s just talk really quick.

Before we go about one of our, very are less important debates on Race.


What, which is when you purchase an automobile.

Oh no, come on man.

You purchase an automobile.

You sign up, you make a down payment and then you’re required to make a monthly right?

Your car note.

I don’t care what you say, car.


No, is called car note.

So one of the many things that join I just know.

We were talking, you know, I would I grew up around Detroit and I was down in Detroit a lot.

And so I was privy to a lot of fun black cloak wheels and one of them being car.


No, and I said, Joy, you know, not a single white person in Erica knows what the fuck car note is.

And she’s like, no, that’s not true.

And then you ask every white person on Parenthood and they’re like, huh?

What’s a car now?

Like some you leave on the hood, as you parked in the wrong spot and then I have some black friends.


We were like nods.

Yeah, and then there’s one firms.

Like yeah, but you know, who grew up in Connecticut world connections, like, they didn’t say, but I’m so, yeah, it’s still up in the air.


I mean, yeah.



I know.

I still don’t know.

I mean, at least, at least like when you come back to these people.


Than a car payment.

Yeah, this is it sounds but more civilized.

So when you tell other black folks like you know, white people call it car payment.

At least it makes sense.


You think it’s a car payment when I when I try to explain why it would be car, note car know.

What is the note part?


What does that even mean?

It’s a more sophisticated way elevated matters elevated way.

Well, I just want to publicly thank you for always having these debates.

We’ve had over the years and, and feeling like it.

My soul that my intentions were good in my it was pure and always being patient and letting me come to.


And by the way, I don’t agree with joy on a lot of these things.

There’s some I haven’t come around to, which is good and healthy and I love it.


And you don’t have to and, you know, listen this discussion and then we sit, we kind of em, yeah.




If if look a year from now, you’re like, you know, what you was right about Cardinal.


Yeah, but can I say, you know, I think a lot.

Out of this is is what your self-esteem level is and how you feel as a person that you don’t always feel attacked and defensive unit.

So you have admirable self-esteem.


I’ve always been attracted to that partly.

Yeah, I think you like, you know, what?

Light Lane you’re in and you have your thing, you design, clothes.

You played the drums you right, you know, you know, the things that you want to do that fill up the well, right?


And as we both Both said, we both are in a great position that we can do these things that fill up the well inside.

And so I’m lucky as hell.

I have a lot of great stuff in my life.

If I’m wrong about this debate.

My self-esteem’s not hinged on that and that’s a really right privileged place to be right.


And you know, I wish for everybody really what I wish is that everyone had that, that would be nice because then we could all hear this shit and not even defensive and not feel like we’re under attack or we also just can’t really can’t really change anything if we don’t have these Russians right.

Yeah, um and and it’s a luxury to have them.


You know, I’m saying like it’s it is but they’re also.

It’s like it’s but it’s but it’s like it’s vital.

That is necessary that we have is that we have?

Yeah, I don’t mean that it’s a luxury to have the conversation that I want to correct myself.

It’s a luxury to be in a position where you can hear all sides and you’re not you’re not scratching for your life to keep your head above water.


Like that’s nice.

The fact that I get to think about whether I’m eating organic food or not organic food, or you know I’m saying, Like, what a luxury.

First half of my life.

I was just thinking about, like, I need two thousand, taels, really light of yeah.

Calories. 7-Eleven has two hot dogs for 129.


I’m doing that for first. 25 years on the live now.

I’m like, wait, do I feel different when I eat better stuff?

Oh, I do.

What a fucking luxury?

I have but I love you so much.

I love you too.


I hoped you’d be and I feel so blessed that you and I got to be.


Married for six years.

I love you.

My TV.

Boo a smart TV but come back.

I will I know.

Stay tuned.

If you’d like to hear my good friend and producer, Monica, Padma and point out the many errors in the podcast.


You just heard.


Oh, this is a good one.

There’s a good one.

Yeah, I would imagine this would be good, Monica.



You’re here.

Once again to point out the many errors.

I made in my previous conversation with Joy Bryant.

Yes, were there?


Many there were, okay.

So not many not not as many as I would have expected for that conversation because it got dangerous at many intervals.

Were you scared for me?

Couple times I was scared for myself, a couple, well either.


Yeah, and I’m Ali and I crossed the line a couple times to probably know.

I don’t think you’re hurt.

You word honest.



You said that Jeffrey Dahmer, uh-huh.

Grew up thinking his mom has a sister but it was Ted Bundy.


Ted Bundy.




Bundy is the in again, not to get granular, but I do believe I said someone like yes a great.

You said Jeffrey.

When you said it, well, it was a money one of those.

And then I and then I said that our good friend from A Few Good.


Men was a serial killer, and he’s not the actor.

Oh, Jack Nichols.

Yeah, Jack Nicholson.



No, you didn’t say it was just to say, was you.

She said that he also thought his mom.


Oh, yeah, sister.

And it’s also true.

Oh, that’s true.

He thought his mom was his sister.

He thought, See you need you need that kind of shit in your background to be a good actor.

Yeah, you need some stuff makes me worry drip, but I have some stuff.

Okay, so there.


Oh, okay.

So you brought up the government cheese and the government pork and you said, you didn’t know the brand at the brand is Lakeside foods that makes the government pork and you are right because I found a big picture of it with an outline of a pig.



It has.

It’s like more of like a silhouette.

It’s yeah, it’s colored.

In Black.

Yeah, I’m so glad that you confirm that because that is certainly something that I was 11.

When I would look at that can that I could have well, you are Glee.


It really stamped in your brain because you were very accurate.


Yeah, it’s gross.

It’s a huge Camp.

Huge and it doesn’t have a paper note around.

Its don’t think.

Yep, and it’s labeled pork with juices.

I bet a lot of people Just extracted those juices and made like a soup.


Oh, I got pork.

Jus something.

They made a suit.

They just drank in college has been cleared it.


So then you have a discussion about Waylon Jennings Watashi himself a Native American.

Yeah, and he I don’t think he’s just appropriating that because he spent a lot of time with the Navajo Indians and he would make regular stops with Wes.


Yeah, yeah.


And who would make regular stops on the reservation?

And he spent a lot of time with them?

So I think they probably just just gave him that name and designated him that and so he maybe had no genealogical claim to write.

It was just an affinity for the culture.


Well, he does singing that song America, all my brothers or red, black, and white, yellow too.


And the red man is right to expect a little from you promised and then follow through a man.

Wrecker, he’s calling on America to follow through on their promise, you the Red Man, his words not mine.

I know, I’m glad they’re not.

You were worried.


That sounded yeah, racist.

I guess he could because they were best friends and it’s the 70s and I’m sure it was the the best thing you could say at that.

Yeah, and he was trying to be out.

He was trying to his heart was pure.


I think he went, I read his autobiography.


And again, I’m just getting myself into more hot water cuz I’m going to miss him.

Remember this.

But I do think in his biography.

When he quit cocaine, he went to the desert in his motor home with a ton of cocaine and stayed out there and did it all and then quit cold turkey.

And I think he might have been on a reservation when he was in his motor home quitting Coke.


Oh, yeah, that makes sense.

They really embraced him.




So then you guys have discussion about eating disorders and different races and anorexia because that’s what you were talking about.





I’m sorry.

Eating disorders in general are of similar rates.

They appear at similar rates in in re cities.



Authenticity is even though the common misconception is it’s white string, white white peeps.



Okay, and actually bulimia is more common in the African-American.

It is.

Yeah, which is sort of goes.

Against your boy.

Yeah, but yeah, it is interesting.

Yeah, and where did you find that?



I found it on National Eating Disorders, dot-org.

Okay, we trust them.

Yeah, it’s an orca dot-org.

Yeah, trust and org.

I dress.

I trust all orgs.


Stanford is not all pass/fail.

It’s not some classes are pass/fail.


Oh, really?

Like, what did the GE?

The block of?

Our core classes, you know, it said it says, all courses from beating University requirements, including general education.

Requirements must be taken for a letter grade.


Oh, maybe your Majors pass/fail, or those departments limit, or do not accept CR.

And see, that’s pass-fail notation, for courses, for credit within the major requirement.

Okay, so really not very many at all.


Probably, okay.

It’s weird.

I think that where maybe it’s some point, but it didn’t say anything about that, but on the current stand for website, that’s what it is.


Duke has two children.

You said you didn’t know if he had any children and I just wanted to clarify that he has two children, two girls.


Oh bummer.

And how are they?

Are they have they distance themselves from Dad?

Or if they embraced that I didn’t look into them about priority, but they’re there, they’re there with us.

Okay, they’re probably in a dilemma.

You know, I’m sure if they’re Millennials.


I didn’t check their, this is one of the many things.

Kristin, I debate all the time, which is, I understand familiar, familial piety.

I understand sticking by a flawed parent.

I kind of understand it.

I understand it.

And we debate, what we do, if our child was a serial killer and I’m like, I’d hide her, I would take her somewhere and hide her.


I would not turn her in and we differ on that.




That’s the hot button topic.

I think.

She would hide her.

I know, I think she might realize that she wanted, but what doing her?

Well, it depends on how much damage she was doing.

And if she was going to keep doing it.


Yes, she wouldn’t allow her to keep murdering now or no, no, no, no.

No nor would I nor die, but I would get her out of the country and hide her.

But what if she was like, I really I literally need to do, I would let her, I’d let her hunted deer bear handed or something.


Okay, then I wanted to clarify because this came up.

Martin Luther King did have an orgy.

That was recorded by the FBI, correct?

But yeah, it’s it was just it was releasing an FBI document know that had like allegations of his sexual misconduct that they they Declassified I guess when they were trying to figure out stuff about the JFK assassination, right?


I want to say it was like five years.

Ago, I remember seeing that in the news, according to the thing I say is, I was reading the Trump Administration.

Released this FBI document.

It really made sense when I read it.

All right.

Yeah, he they had an orgy, he had an orgy, that he would have orgies at like workshops.


Okay SEC, spiritual workshops.

Yeah, it was great.

Yeah, and then you said it.

Are you you didn’t know how many how what the percentage of the African-American population exists in this country.

And as well, .3 12.30.


Hey, that’s all, that’s all.

Yeah, pretty good.

Okay, thanks.

I was a little, as I said, I was a little nervous.

I would end up out on a limb.

What did you, what were you nervous about?

Because I can easily.

And when I’m debating race with somebody, you’re of Indian descent.


You’re am your father’s from India.

Your mother.

Also choose three.

Yeah, and and and we’re talking or were debating.

I will regularly get super self-conscious like, oh I went too far because I’m always on the verge of going too far and then I I could see myself going.


Oh fuck.

I just went too far.

That’s mildly racist.

And then now I’m going to try to get out of this extricate.

Myself with some bogus fact, or Bogus claim.

You know, I could see where that would have happened.

You know, I feel like that’s a pattern.


I maybe have been in the past.

You don’t think you would just say.

Oh, sorry.

Well, I have done that as well.

But in it, depending on what my heart rate is and what part of my brain is working and online, sometimes I will get embarrassed.

I’m embarrassed.

I’ll get maybe defensive.


Yeah, that’s normal.

I’m trying, you know, this is a risk you run if you want to wait into some choppy water.

These are probably We topics a lot of white people don’t want to talk about watching or vice versa.

Yeah, it is a little scary.

But thank you.

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