0:00

Welcome to the armchair expert.

I’m your host Dax Shepard before I tell you about today’s guess.

I just want to share something that happened this morning while I was driving my daughter to a gymnastics class.

I didn’t even tell you about this yet, Monica.

Okay, unloads Feliz, Boulevard.

0:16

I passed a couple guys in a Range Rover.

And as I pass them, they honk the horn in through the bird, out the window and I could hear them screaming.

Fuck you to you to me.

Yeah.

We were the only two people go.

A nice Tan, Los Feliz Boulevard, and we got it to a light and they were next to us and the wind has done.

0:34

So, I rolled the window down, and I say, guys, what’s what’s the problem in this guy was all f-bombs.

You’re driving too fast.

What’s the speed limit on Los Feliz, Boulevard screaming.

His buddy was occasionally popping in with this or that he was upset about.

0:52

But they kept talking about the speed limit and then it occurred to me while they were, I kept on, guys, guys, guys.

You’re so hostile.

Hold it just calm down.

Calm down.

And I noticed as they were screaming at me about the speed limit.

They were both sucking on gigantic doobies.

There was so much pot smoke in the car.

1:11

I couldn’t help, but think how funny was that.

They had really prioritized the speed limit unless Feliz Boulevard, but suck at mind you, it was 8:30 in the morning, right?

And they are chugging a couple of doobies with the windows down and at a certain point, it occurred to me.

1:29

Me.

Mmm, these guys might still be up from last night, because what, why are they on the road, at 8:30 in the morning, pounding doobage?

Yeah, I don’t like that.

I bet they were up all night.

And then they were on their way to get a greasy breakfast and they were smoking those doobies.

1:46

But I will say, I had this whole exchange with them and I never got angry.

I just kept going guys, guys.

Hold on a second.

You’re very hostile.

What is it?

I did and you know, I drove away.

Have to say, wasn’t super excited.

2:02

I even got involved in that with my daughter, in the car.

But yet I was in, I was proud of the, the what I want to say the growth.

Normally I would have been screaming and stuff.

Right?

And I want it done that in front of my child, and that wouldn’t have been cool.

2:19

But anyways, after I drove away and I thought, oh, you know what, I chose the D escalation path.

I think I learned that from our favorite documentary, wild wild country.

Mmm, which is a real study of escalation versus the escalation, right?

Yeah, you guys should all watch that.

2:35

If you haven’t seen it on Netflix yet.

We’re obsessed with it.

It’s almost all we talk about the ba Guam in my new crush ma an odd.

Sheila is so powerful.

Speaking of super powerful short ladies.

Uh-huh.

Our Guest today is a real treat.

2:52

We both hoped that this podcast would take off enough.

That we would not have to beg.

All of my friends to come.

To the attic.

Sure, but that hopefully, people want to be on, and this was the first person who reached out to us and wanted to be on, guys.

3:10

It’s Katie Couric.

What are the odds, that Katie Couric reaches out?

Wants to be in your attic of your war zone, construction, project them, to none.

So I’m not excited where we jumping up and down.

Yeah, almost backflip level like truly.

Yeah.

I am very, very attracted to short smart.

3:29

Ladies.

He’s right.

My wife is a very short, very smart, powerful lady.

My mom is a short, smart, powerful, lady, and you are a short, small powerful Lady.

It’s fantastic.

So, without further Ado, please enjoy one of the smartest.

3:46

One of the most powerful, one of the funnest Katie Couric, stay tuned.

He’s an armchair.

I do.

4:02

Yeah.

Anyways, Rob.

You’re ready.

Katie Couric.

Welcome to the armchair expert.

It’s cute.

It’s mind-blowing.

You’re sitting on the couch.

I gotta say thank you.

Dr. DAC.

When Monica and Robin, I started this.

The goal was oh, you know, hopefully it’ll get known enough that just when I’m begging people to do it.

4:23

It’ll be less, you know, in terrible on.

Yeah.

On my end in your publicist actually reached out to us and yet, I don’t think you can imagine the celebration that happened in our kitchen.

When Mom, because you’re not going to believe.

Who want who actually wants to be on armchair Katie Couric.

4:41

We were so excited.

Well, you know, I’m a big fan and I think it’s so interesting in this day and age how you get to people, you know, how to get to their eyes and ears and I think it’s really cool that you’ve embraced this new medium and that you’re having fun with it.

5:00

It’s really easy to go.

Like, all this business is changing.

I liked how it was, and I’m just going to dig my heels in and be angry that it’s not what it was, but that’s a one-way ticket out of the business, right?

Definitely.

I mean, listen, there are people who are doing a great job at what I did for years and years, in terms of television news and primarily focusing on that.

5:23

At their, I think they’re trying to expand in other Arenas to, but that’s their bread and butter and that’s still a really important genre.

Yeah.

Television news, but I have always tried to predict or at least have my finger on the pulse of how things are changing when I was at CVS doing this, CBS Evening News, which is really one of the most old school networks.

5:47

There is, I said when we were covering the gulf oil spill I said, hey, let’s take some.

Other questions.

Because when you’re covering stories day in and day out, sometimes you lose sight of some very basic questions.

Yeah.

Sure.

I thought viewers would have interesting questions that maybe we miss.

6:05

You get very deep inside the Forest right in your and the I remember one of the I guess the vice president of the news division said to a colleague of mine.

I think it’s really beneath the anchor of the CBS Evening News to be on the Twitter.

6:21

Right?

And I was like, Mmm, clearly.

This is not a sort of looking ahead at the Future Organization.

Yeah, and I remember getting a question tax and it was how much oil is down there, and I was like, you see.

Yeah, that’s a really interesting.

6:37

The 10 gallons.

Is that it?

No, but it was a lot of well, I don’t remember how much it was or if it was an infinite amount Millions, but but, you know, so I have always tried to keep an eye on what’s happening in the landscape and embrace it rather than I shy away from it.

6:54

Yeah, and you’ve worked through a couple of big Paradigm, shifts.

One of them being when you started there, where what three options for news generally or maybe a few on your local and then the 24-hour news cycle started in CNN was born in MSNBC and all these things.

7:11

And what was your initial reaction to that?

I actually started at ABC News as a desk assistant right out of college, but then CNN was just starting.

So I worked at CNN before it even.

Oh, really?

Did you have encounters with Ted Turner?

I, you know, I saw him from afar.

7:29

I didn’t really know him.

I remember the first meeting he had with all these bright-eyed, CNN people who are very excited about this new way of, delivering the news.

And I remember he got up in front of all the employees and said, ah, we’re gonna beam the shit all over the place was like really that’s our fearless leader.

7:53

But so, you know, of course, he’s kind of a larger than life figure.

Yeah, so I was kind of right there as that changed and have kind of tried to iterate as they say.

Yeah, but I belong in my right to guess though.

That at the peak of the three Network options when you had like a Ted Koppel or Tom Brokaw, or one of the, these guys were getting tons of money, right?

8:17

Because the they were their viewership was in the tens of millions, right?

And so when it Came kind of diluted by all these other positions.

Did that bring the overall salary down for everyone?

No, not not in the early days.

Oh, no, I think, for example, when I was able to be a co-anchor on The Today Show that show is such a cash.

8:40

Cow.

Yeah, morning shows.

Bring in a ton of money to network news divisions.

So as a result, you had a lot of Leverage when it came to your salary.

If you were considered an important part of that program.

Yeah, so So, for the integration of my time at the Today Show, you know, was very well compensated.

8:58

Right?

And just so people, understand the reason those are so profitable, not not just the viewership.

But the cost of making them is very inexpensive, right?

Because you’re on one set.

You have your camera’s already set and you can bang out real-time content, right?

And and the ad revenues are high.

9:13

They’re not, they’re reaching.

You know, I don’t know, watch it live as well.

I don’t know as much as they used to, but the the key demographics are Younger, probably women, who are making a lot of the purchasing decisions, you know, I’ve never really kind of explored totally the ad Revenue models on those shows.

9:34

But, you know, they got good ratings.

They’re consistent.

I think they were brand friendly, right?

All those things.

Yeah.

Yeah, Monica, and I were just at a live podcast that Dolby Center, and we learned actually.

Now, I’m hearing Sam Harris.

9:50

Yeah.

We were sorry.

We’re obsessed with Sam Harris.

We talk about them, every single podcast Steven Pinker on as a guest.

And then they, they did a live thing at Dolby which was really fascinating, but 80% of the consumer Market is driven by women.

10:05

Women are making 80% of the decisions, right?

Sometimes I’ve heard as high as 85%, So really viewership is skewing female as well.

Right?

Yeah, so women have to imagine an ideal spot to advertise if you’re trying to sell something to the ladies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

10:20

Exactly.

So you grew up in Virginia, I did.

Is that an idea like childhood is?

It was it rural was it wasn’t real is extremely Suburban?

Okay, up in Arlington, Northern which is really a suburb of Washington d.c.

10:37

So most of the people in my neighborhood, they work for the federal government.

My dad did not but it was in journalism early in his career.

He grew up in Dublin, Georgia.

He went to Mercer and Macon Georgia wrote for the Macon Telegraph, when he graduated from high school.

10:52

I mean, From college rather and then went and worked for the Atlanta Constitution United press and we moved to Washington and he transferred into public relations, which I always thought was the shame.

Honestly, because my dad was so so smart and such a renaissance man could talk fluently about just about anything.

11:12

Yeah, and I just don’t think he was a big guy.

I just don’t think PR was a great fit for him.

I mean, he did it, right?

But I wish he had.

Was he drawn into it fight for financial reasons.

So yeah, I think it was really hard to raise a family of four kids on a newspaperman salary.

11:29

And so that’s why he went into that field.

But and we’re you a daddy’s girl, you know, I love both my parents so much.

You know, I think I was inspired by my dad and he really encouraged me to pursue journalism because I was always a pretty good writer.

11:46

I remember the head of the NAB was a man named Vincent wasilewski and my mom, my mom picked my dad and mr.

Roscoe wasilewski up at the airport and I was in the back of our station wagon and I kept asking him if he wanted to hear a joke because I was sort of a little Joker like you were when you were little and I it was when Paul polish jokes were all the rage.

12:09

Oh, sure.

She’ll my mom.

In fact, if you do the setup, I bet I can do the punch.

Yeah.

I do.

You know, my mom knowing that then ceoís was a loose key, probably would not find polish jokes, super amusing.

I was about to blow a gasket and she was driving, Katie, and I and mr.

12:29

Wasilewski was like, come on, tell the joke, the joke, and of course, I got immediately the vibe from my mom that I should not go there, but it was a, it was a, you didn’t get it out.

You know, where you going to ask him how to get a one-armed polish man out of a tree know what?

12:46

How wave, I don’t get it.

Well because there aren’t Yeah.

Yeah, and I’m not using, I’m going to use the, but those were all the rage for a little while.

Yeah.

13:01

Christine.

Because today, it would be considered obviously culturally inappropriate.

It’s culturally insensitive and highly inappropriate.

We talked about this non-stop were kind of obsessed with this issue because I would love to hear you talk about this whole hour for National Geographic.

Well, I’m doing six hours and one of the episodes is about sort of this heightened.

13:23

Troll sensitivity.

What’s happening?

Not only on college campuses but in literature and books.

Well this all of Academia.

Yes passion.

It’s been really interesting.

Yeah, and so let me just because I always make the mistake of saying after the fact I’ll make this argument then I go it should go without saying I think women men should make the same amount but I’ve just said, a bunch of other stuff.

13:44

So I’m just going to start by saying a, I’m probably getting to the age where I should shut up, you know, I think inevitably as culture changes Going to get left behind on some topics and I can accept that, and I can recognize that.

I’m there are going to be things.

I just don’t agree with, as I get older and older.

14:00

So this could be one of them.

I could be wrong.

But I do think we can definitely make polish jokes because as Monica would say, I’m white.

So I’m entitled to make some Polish jokes, right?

I’m probably not in Polish.

I can tell you, I am.

Yeah, how would you possibly know stolen or not?

14:20

I think it’s within our realm as comedians to be making all.

White people jokes, we want to make if we’re white men, right?

Probably not white female jokes, we should probably stay away from those and then we can leave it to the comedians that are say, who’s your favorite, the Indian comedian?

14:36

You love.

O Hasan minhaj.

Yeah, so he so we this is something we debated about is Hasan minhaj points.

Out that there is an official immigrant car, which is the Toyota Camry, which is a brilliant observation funny and I said, you know, Monica I could point that same thing out.

14:55

It’s still a great observation and I lament that that that I don’t have that option, but that’s probably just my entitlement in my, you know, wanting to be a part of every single thing.

And I well I want to be a part of every single thing.

It’s all, it’s all very interesting because it’s changing and I think people have very sort of hardened opinions about this and one of the things I wanted to explore in this hour is, is this dividing us Is it keeping us from being able to explore things that aren’t what quote, unquote in our lane and part of our cultural purview or is this, you know, and it’s much more nuanced.

15:35

I think one of the problems in our culture today is people have these very specific opinions about things and they don’t hear other points of view.

They don’t kind of understand that it’s much more nuanced.

I think media wise it’s so much easier to kind of say it’s black or white.

15:50

It’s this.

Yeah, that is so yes, and we talked about this.

A lot in my opinion on that is like we have slowly weirdly embraced technology to the point where we work in binary opposition now, so we are black or white.

We are a one or a zero.

Well, your loss half a notion, not information.

16:06

Yes, and so this is great because this is a thing that Monica and I were just talking about a couple days ago, which is I reject the claim that I can’t understand your experience and specifically.

I mean I reject that I can’t relate to a human.

16:23

You have now, I can’t I don’t have the black experience.

I never will.

I like I don’t claim to have that but the example I gave was this if you’re a Muslim kid growing up in the Midwest and you’ve got to leave your classroom twice a day to go, pray that must feel very excluding.

16:40

You must feel very other than and it’s us and them and so I can’t relate to being a Muslim kid leaving to prayed twice a day, but I can relate to being learning disabled and going to the special ed.

Room twice a day, which was humiliating beyond belief and excluding and I felt less than so.

17:00

Yes.

I’m not claiming.

I know the experience, but I am saying as a human, I understand the feeling and the feeling of exclusion and feeling less than I can relate to.

So, just because I’m white, doesn’t mean I can’t relate to that.

And I think that’s to me, is the distinction.

I agree.

And I think, you know, we all want to have empathy for other people situation, and if you can’t talk about it.

17:23

You can’t ask questions.

If you can’t have an opinion or try to contribute to the conversation.

It’s incredibly does that parading and divisive.

And, you know, I have a friend who someone said to her.

You can’t really talk about this because you’re not black, right?

17:41

I think that’s a dangerous delineation for people.

I understand.

Yes, that’s true.

And there are certain things about particular experiences that are unique to Two individuals, on the other hand, if we Silo each other off so much.

17:57

How can we come together and form?

Some kind of mutual understanding?

That’s my point, is that if you want a greater mass of people to join your movement, people don’t join movements to be Spectators.

They join movements to be participant.

So if the opening statement is you’ll never understand my story.

18:15

You should never speak of my story, join my movement.

I don’t think you’re going to a lot of people joining the movement because who wants to come just be in the audience of a movement.

You And I have an opinion.

You want to be a, you want people to be invested in what you’re doing and what you care about.

And I think people want to, we’re just living in these very polarizing times.

18:34

And it’s complicated.

And I’ve learned a lot about just in the course of this series about all these hot button issues and about sort of what cultural appropriation means.

I was talking to a lane, well to Roth, who was the editor of Teen Vogue and she left to pursue some other una tease.

18:53

And, you know, I she talked about Minstrel shows being sort of, one of the first cultural appropriation inappropriate, use of someone else.

And people do what do those in blackface and, and they’re so deeply offensive.

And I hadn’t really thought of it as a case of cultural appropriation.

19:12

And I think if you’re, you know, it is hard.

I think you have to acknowledge that it is, in fact, difficult to understand the experiences of a marginalized community.

Ready, if you’re not part of that Community because it is such a such a compact an accumulation of slights and attitudes that I think really do shape.

19:36

How you see yourself and how you interface with the world.

Yeah, on the other hand.

I think we have to have some kind of open dialogue while acknowledging that to figure out how we’re going to move forward.

Yeah.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

19:52

If you dare.

R.

I had to recognize.

Oh, this is why I can’t relate.

So there was a famous case that was in the media recently where an agent grabbed, a black actor’s penis at a party and then obviously that actor was very, very upset.

20:18

And I happen to know, both people involved in my take was hmm, if I was at a party.

At a friend’s house and someone grabbed my dick in front of my wife.

I wouldn’t care.

That just me personally.

I could give a shit.

I would go, that was a weird joke, right?

20:35

So, I and I can’t relate to feeling like, say sexually assaulted by that but then I thought, well in life in general.

I’m a six foot two white guy.

So I don’t feel powerless very often.

I don’t walk into rooms and feel powerless all the time.

20:51

So it takes a lot to make me feel powerless.

But if I Has regularly marginalized.

I would feel powerless quite often and wouldn’t probably take much to make me feel angry and Powerless.

So that’s an example were like, yeah, my own blinders could make me not understand what that person went through plus.

21:10

It’s probably hard for you to really understand the nature of their relationship, right?

Yeah, you have a relationship with one and with both individuals, but in terms of how they interact, you don’t really know.

Yeah, so who knows the baggage?

21:25

That Be part and parcel of that relationship, right?

Yes, and also in now I’m going to jump into another hot lava topic.

But another thing that needs to be considered all the time is if the three of us in this room right now for sorry Rob, the four of us are asked tomorrow.

21:46

What happened in this room.

All four of us will have a completely different version of what happened in this room.

That’s just human nature.

We’re not experiencing things the same way as one another As much as this accounts, right?

That’s why they’re so, they’re almost useless right in that met has now been, you know, thoroughly proven.

22:03

And so what is scary and what is dangerous is that quite often?

Both people are telling the truth.

We don’t really have an answer for that.

So often both people are telling the truth.

There are true.

They exact.

Yes.

Now there is a third truth.

If there were a camera in the room we would have, you know, an objective truth to it.

22:23

But I you know, I have a friend who is Nanny who feels a little less than because of that title and has gone into a store and been told that they can’t, they won’t sell it to her because she’s a nanny.

That’s for mothers.

Are you a mother or you a nanny?

22:38

This whole experience which I found to be not possible, but I do believe that she had that experience.

I don’t deny that she had that experience.

Does that make any sense?

Yeah, we hear things that confirm hunches.

We already have what happened to her exactly.

22:53

She went into a store with baby.

Goods, and she wanted help with something.

And then according to her.

The the owner said, are you a nanny or a mother, which I can’t.

I just can’t comprehend that.

That would ever happen.

I don’t know why the owner would say that, but if you’re waiting for people to be pointing out that you’re a nanny, then you hear certain things that I’m not help me.

23:16

Monica, makes that yeah, that that makes sense.

But I think it easily could have happened.

I could totally see a scenario where I was buying something and they were like, oh, do you are you a mom?

Well, yeah, in a cheerful way.

Well, yeah, she probably did say, are you a nanny?

23:32

Or are you a mom?

They probably get multiple types of.

Why would they say that though?

I don’t know, but I wouldn’t even think twice about that.

Like, I would never think about that.

After the fact that they were wondering if I was a lowly nanny or but if you’re insecure about that, you’re going to stir it.

23:48

That’s my greater one, right?

Yes, and I have when I have insecure, my insecurities are people think I’m dumb, you know, the list goes on.

And Then everything someone saying to me, I’m thinking daring it through that filter.

Yes, and so I will repeat this story but in the end, it’s just that that was my version of what how they do want to say one thing before we?

24:08

Yes, we go on.

I’m it’s a little dangerous.

I think to say that everyone’s truths are truths.

No.

No, I listen.

Many men are lying.

The vast majority of men are lying in those situations.

Yeah, but I don’t even know what I’m saying.

24:23

Is sometimes both people are telling the truth.

Things are true often.

Everyone is telling their version of what happened?

But I, but I it’s I think it’s dangerous to say everyone’s telling the truth because that gets into fake news situations.

24:38

I could send a lot of things or people say well I was there and I saw this to me.

It was this me the, you know, inauguration was full of people.

Well, and I’m sure you’ve had this in your own experience, which is your much like my wife.

You are very powerful.

You’re very accomplished.

24:54

I’m assuming you have pretty good.

Good self-esteem.

So you’ve probably had interactions with men who have later been exposed as being predatorial that weren’t predatorial with you because you’re not a good Target.

Yes, right.

Has that happened?

Mmm.

Yeah, and so it puts you in a weird position after the fact of going like yes, I recognize that yet.

25:13

I didn’t experience that.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I just to go back to what Monica said.

I think I think what we’re saying is sometimes when people are talking about their feelings and this is, of course, the controversial area as well because some people feel That this emphasis on feelings is too much but that it’s their perception of how they felt or what, you know, how something transpired.

25:36

And when we talk about their own truths.

I think their own accounts of how they felt about something that happened.

Yes.

Yeah.

In a personal situation.

That’s what I’ve sort of talking about.

Yeah, but anyway, getting back to that.

So and then because I just want to come back to one thing, you’re talking about the documentary.

25:56

You’re about to make, I think to what’s dangerous now about the sensitivity is that the way Academia has always worked.

And the reason we’ve gotten such great breakthrough scientifically and whatnot.

Is that someone writes a paper, a good percentage of it is flawed and we have peer review and they go, you know, you might want to check this data set.

26:15

I think this doesn’t really add up with what we’ve gotten right in through this process of peer review.

We come to find the truth.

But but it requires that somebody has the latitude to say something wrong.

Right or that the bulk of what they’re saying is, right, but then some ten percent of it is wrong and then that comes under scrutiny and then it gets corrected and that’s that is a great process for finding the truth.

26:36

And I think now that people’s careers can end.

If they say the wrong sentence, they can be ostracized.

That’s that’s dangerous.

I diced on social media.

Yes.

I think we have to have we have to be able to go.

Okay.

Someone’s going to say a lot of things.

26:51

Some of them are going to be insensitive wrong and they should have the The ability to parent, right?

Yeah, but it’s okay to be ignorant.

I think you’re right.

I think that’s when it does get dangerous.

When people can’t with, with genuineness and a true curiosity and with no intention to offend cannot ask questions or talk about an area that you know, the very the very question brings them ridicule or yeah, you know, they’re they’re portrayed as something they’re not.

27:25

I think.

You know, that’s a whole big Sticky Wicket about all this about.

Does it stifle free.

Speech?

Is it?

I interviewed Adam Carolla for this hour, you know, who has testified on Capitol Hill has actually doing the documentary testified on Capitol Hill and what’s his position.

27:44

He thinks that that college kids are basically.

They need to have the fortitude to hear things that they darling our events.

And yeah, that’s part of that our offense. and but, you know, the other the other side is You know, maybe there’s nothing wrong with people being more thoughtful about how they approach certain topics.

28:08

I guess.

It’s a really it’s a fine line, isn’t it?

Like everything.

It’s kind of a little of both sides are right.

Yes, when it becomes so intense that people feel like they can’t have a conversation that can’t.

Yeah, you got to float some bad ideas to discover their bad.

28:25

I guess is what I’m saying.

That’s how you learn but you know, but this whole issue of microaggressions and Making comments.

I interviewed Marty Shapiro who’s the president of Northwestern about this?

And he told a story about being are the Trojans, the USC, Trojans, right?

28:40

Yeah.

He was at a football game and there was a band playing and wanted.

This is when, you know number of years ago, I think the president administrators wife turned to him and said, oh, you must really love this band and he said, yeah, I like the, I like this marching band.

And he said, because this woman said, because your people really like music.

29:00

What a, what And he is Jewish and he didn’t realize at the time that he was the only Jewish person in this group of people.

Okay, and I don’t even know the stereotype that Jews love music, but that’s new to me.

I know, I know, you know, he gave an example of that like just a boneheaded.

29:19

Yeah.

Prejudiced weird thing to say, and it made him feel really uncomfortable.

That’s an example of something that he remembers to this day, even though it happened, many years ago.

So I think kind of asking people to appreciate their preconceived, notions and their own implicit biases.

29:38

And prejudices sure is is something that’s appropriate especially as these colleges and universities tried to be more inclusive and try to make people feel welcome, you know, so I’m trying to present all these different sides.

So people can kind of hear hear of people.

29:55

Talk about it in Back to the first point you might, which is were so inclined to black and white options this.

Like so many things it’ll fall in the middle.

So it’s not that no, you should be able to go dressed in black face for Halloween on a college campus.

If that’s not either that option or you saying that, I don’t even know.

30:15

Some innocuous observation makes you a racist and Baba, but those aren’t the two only two options.

Right?

I think there’s like everything.

There’s a little pendulum, it swings a little too far this way and I’ll go too far that way.

And I also recognize that I’m probably buying into the hysteria about College campuses.

30:31

So, there’s been these Evergreens of popular case of when it’s happy colleges.

And yes, there’s been a handful of them.

And, of course, I witnessed them because they’re on YouTube.

And so I start thinking that all college campuses are this way.

And it might be a very rare thing that happens that I’m probably overreacting to.

30:50

I think people again, getting back to Gathering your own set of facts.

Right?

People cherry-pick things that support their point of view.

Yeah, and sometimes I do You think just a lot more complicated.

And then then and if people listen, and kind of understand and hear other points of view and why, you know, safe spaces, might it might be important to be comfortable before you engage in uncomfortable learning.

31:19

If you in fact feel uncomfortable, you know, maybe that is actually a good thing.

So idea front go like, hey, this is going to get dicey for the next hour and a half.

We’re going to talk about some stuff that’s going to be offensive.

Yeah.

I think maybe if you have the appropriate expectation, you’re not caught off guard.

31:34

That’s right.

And I think, you know, I was talking to Marty Shapiro about that and it’s almost like warnings before a movie.

You know.

He said he went to a film about the Holocaust, it was interesting for him to give examples about himself personally.

It helped me, understand it more.

Yeah, and he said, you know, some of my family died in the Holocaust and it would have been nice if I just known because you know, everybody sort of mocks this whole notion of re-traumatizing people, but it Has happen.

32:01

And why not just kind of it’s really just kind of a courteous heads up.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you you’ve done a bunch of amazing interviews.

I watched a few of them last night for fun first and foremost, the fact that you are on 60 Minutes.

32:18

That’s my all-time favorite show.

So that’s exciting.

Two of them.

Jump out at me.

One of them is you famously asked?

Sarah?

Palin.

The question.

What magazines or newspapers?

Are you reading to start your day?

32:34

Right to stay informed.

Do you remember this Monica?

Hmm?

Yeah, very famous question.

One of the one of the top 10 most famous questions, probably.

And then her response obviously, was like, oh I read all them.

And then you said well, specifically which ones do you read?

And then it was pretty much exposed that she’s not reading any of those.

32:54

When I watch the video, that’s now, 10 years ago.

We’re 11 years ago, right?

Yeah, and I no longer have the ire towards her that I used to have because it was a threat to me at that time.

I was so in support of Obama, and I was so terrified of her and McCain being, you know, president vice president that, you know, I disliked her at that time.

33:17

And now I don’t, I don’t dislike her now.

It’s 11 years later and what’s weird?

Watching that video and I loved when it happened, when it happened, but now I’m watching it 11 years later and I’m like, God, I just kind of feel bad for this person.

I think she just ended up in way over her head and was just under prepared and probably anyone of us, you know, plucked out of somewhere would have had that same experience.

33:39

Do you when you have to break stories, which is your job and we need you and we’ve relied on you to expose things and that was a very relevant thing to know about a candidate.

In those moments when you were in that moment, I know if you can remember exactly walking with her and when you re starting about that and you start recognizing, oh, I know where this is going.

34:00

What part of your human body is going all, this is a little bit sad and what part of your intellectual brain is saying this has to be exposed.

What’s walking, that tightrope.

How does that feel in that situation?

I think you’ve well I think you’ve actually described her the way I feel about her, but let me backtrack for a moment.

34:20

I You can hold those two feeling simultaneously.

Hmm, I think, as a person I, you know, I did two interviews, long interviews with her the first at the United Nations and later in Ohio.

And that was, when we were just getting a b-roll shot and I was curious, because I’m fascinated by how, someone becomes so extreme in their beliefs.

34:42

And I think she was quite extreme in her beliefs.

Yeah, and I really the the question I was curious about is what did you Read like what shape your world view and what do you read to, stay, informed?

And because I feel, I think I felt even back then certain material, certain people certain I coach a now.

35:00

Yeah, resources, a firm or help shape you.

And I think early on and, you know, I don’t know whether she’s going to say William F Buckley or, you know, there’s certain people who I really believe strongly in their point of view or I didn’t know, she’d say the Bible, you know, a lot of my view views come from that and you know, so that was kind of Just a b-roll question.

35:22

It wasn’t a throwaway.

That was just to walk and talk.

You say, you didn’t think that was get you, you know, it was really you’re headed.

You prepared like oh she might say no.

No, no, that that.

No, that was I just didn’t know how honestly intellectually robust.

35:37

She was right and but I had spent a lot of time with her after her meeting with world leaders at the UN in New York, and we did many more questions that I think were much more relevant to her.

Her accomplishments, her competence her, you know, how she viewed the country and some of the big issues she would inevitably face.

36:01

And it just was clear, honestly, from the get-go that she just wasn’t ready to be thrust in this role.

Yeah, and of course, of course you’d have ice water running through your veins.

If you didn’t feel sorry for her because one of the pieces of advice I got is, you know, let her talk.

36:20

Mmm, and one of the things about interviewing people, if you’re in a situation like that, not so much like this is you jump in, because nobody likes dead air.

Yeah, but sometimes you just have learning this.

I have to stop.

You just have to not say anything and the less.

36:37

I said The more she kind of was wrestling with trying to sound like she actually understood some of these issues.

When frankly, I think there were just some things that she didn’t really We have a lot of understanding of when you weren’t interviewing.

36:54

Did you get a sense?

Again?

I none of this is I’m not trying to steer politically because there’s plenty of political stuff.

You could listen to when the cameras aren’t rolling.

Do you just genuinely like her like was she a personable?

Yeah.

She was very personable.

She’s personable.

She seemed very nice and down-to-earth unpretentious.

37:14

Yeah, and you know, but my job wasn’t to be her friend.

And our to go out to lunch with her.

It’s actually, you know, she at the time John McCain had a lot of some health issues that had melanoma was conceivable that she would be called upon exactly.

37:31

And I thought it was exceedingly important to be able to ensure the American people that she could take over.

She would have been a Heartbeat Away from the presidency.

Yeah, and I was there to make sure she could lead this country.

37:47

Well, of course, now you look at the situation and you wonder we’ll probably I guess given today’s standard she could have but you know, it was important back then that she had a real ability to be a critical thinker had accumulated knowledge and could understand important issues in a way that would give people confidence.

38:06

If she in fact, were called upon to be president of the United States.

Yeah, but there’s a hue.

You are a primate.

I’m a primate.

We have all this human wiring, right?

So there I have to imagine you are fighting some instincts in your job.

This is the part of Journalism.

38:21

I don’t know if people really Ponder a lot, but I compare it selfishly to.

I was on this show Punk’d and I had to pull pranks on people and there were times where I was like, this is this is evil.

Maybe this is a little bit dicey, you know, but this is going to be great TV and like I’m aware of that like, I’m still looking at a human being in the eyes.

38:41

Oh in the same shared space and there’s there’s two parts of my brain going, you know, this primitive side is like no I want to I want to be in lockstep with the Even being I want to connect with them and yet you might have a job to do that.

Is that goes very much against all those instincts.

Is that something you can practice?

38:59

I think that this was such an important interview.

Yeah, and any personal feelings.

I had had to be put aside for the good of educating the electorate.

That doesn’t mean that I didn’t feel bad for her.

39:15

Like my heart, broke a little bit.

As she was struggling, someone wrote that.

It was like Seventh grader, trying to fake their way through an oral exam but that was an insult as seventh graders and oral exams, you know, I mean, so, but and you did feel like, you know, listen, it would be hard to answer a lot of the questions I ask.

39:37

No, but my mom, but I’m guilty of that.

By the way, I’m I’m watching the thing going like, oh my goodness.

She doesn’t read a single newspaper, mind you, I don’t read the newspapers that there’s definitely a chance.

You’re not running the no, yeah, is in context like she needed an answer.

That sure, absolutely.

But I do think sometimes we are holding people.

39:53

These standards that we ourselves are not meeting.

Well, I just want the president, you know, to be smarter than the person be exactly your honor.

Yes, absolutely.

But there is an element to your job.

Right?

It’s not unlike a defense attorney a criminal defense attorney, which I’m in support of.

40:11

They have to represent murders that they know murdered people.

And that’s that’s how our system functions.

They have to give them the best defense humanly possible because that we have to protect the system.

Mm, and I’m in favor of that, but I would imagine in journalism, you have this huge.

40:27

Your, the, the fourth estate.

Is that what we call you guys, right?

Yes.

Yeah, you’re the fourth wing of our democracy, which is you’re going to help expose things that we need to know about.

That could be hidden.

That’s a huge responsibility.

It’s an enormous responsibility.

40:44

What’s interesting now is we don’t want to get too political, but you watch what everything that’s going on.

And getting back, Monica to your notion of.

Daniel, Patrick Moynihan said, Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own set of facts.

41:01

Yeah, but now it seems that people do feel entitled to their own set of facts.

Yeah, and no matter and I really give kudos to all my colleagues in journalism.

Right now.

They’re doing an incredible job.

The question is in the current environment.

41:20

It’s there’s so much happening.

It’s almost hard to keep up with it.

Yeah, and it becomes White Noise, White Noise, which is really upsetting.

Now.

Any one of these incidents would have, would have any really shattered other presidencies and this one, it’s just, I think, you know, it’s almost like we’re all frogs and in water that is slowly boiling and it starts to, we don’t realize what’s happening and I don’t know.

41:48

It’s just a very Very odd, I’m optimistic.

I think a lot of these things in the long historical view will turn out to be great.

Again, whether you love Trump or your you don’t love Trump.

What could very likely happen is, is this could result in our first female president.

42:06

This could be the push.

I very much think that the hatred towards George Bush from the left opened up the door for our first black president, which is amazing.

So historically if you look at the what he served, you know, ultimately long Term view, it helped.

If George w–.

42:21

Bush had left office at testing in the 80s.

I don’t think we would had Obama Sam.

So, who do you don’t really know how this all shake out in the end.

Right?

No, you don’t, you don’t but in real time it’s excruciating and I also, yeah, I think one of the Silver, Linings it is really galvanized and motivated.

42:42

So many different groups who feel that they do not like the direction.

The country is going in, they do.

I want a president who speaks this way, who conducts himself this way and who threatens various groups, who doesn’t seem to stand behind all Americans and so they are becoming galvanized.

43:01

Similarly, though.

I think sometimes because of his behavior and his, his Tweeting, or whatever he’s doing.

It is a distraction from talking about big policy, issue, shirt, and maybe some of the things that he’s doing actually are worthwhile, you know, maybe there needed to be S regulation may be there needed to be.

43:21

Yeah, you know, some of the things, these things happening.

But everything he does obscure sort of these deeper issues and I don’t think it’s by Design, but I think inevitably that’s what happens.

And there’s so much kind of these gnats flying around and the you know, the molar investigation aren’t Nats but these other things may be like, oh look what he tweeted about Chuck Todd, you know, that becomes like a big news story and it’s such a distraction from So many other important issues and the.

43:51

So, let’s also take potentially a little inventory of where media may have gone wrong.

This would just be from my having no knowledge of it to me when I grew up the, the anchors that we trusted, right?

They were very neutral by my assessment.

44:08

They worked on Vietnam.

Remember Walter could have spoken that was like, the first time really rang.

And, and LBJ said, as if we’ve lost Cronkite, we’ve lost the war.

But yes, you’re right as in general, right?

It is States it.

Stayed.

44:23

So neutral that when Cronkite did say that about Vietnam people went well.

Holy shit.

This, this is really something because he wouldn’t do this.

I carried a like carried a ton of weight in to me unless I’m watching my local news.

I’m either watching CNN or MSNBC or Fox News or whatever.

44:42

And now, it is very, it’s very biased.

It’s very even in your era, right?

You could be, you can have this conversation.

We’re having and then still be an anchor tomorrow somewhere.

Right?

The, the requirement isn’t neutrality so much anymore.

And is that an issue?

Is that is that why?

44:58

Now, you have two camps.

You don’t know who to trust.

They’re saying you can’t trust CNN we’re saying you can’t trust Fox news.

Is that a product of people being more outwardly political and a?

You’re right?

It’s so bifurcated.

I think sort of the feeling among journalists who might have been ostensibly more.

45:19

Active, is that some of this behavior is so beyond the pale.

It is really hard to be on one hand.

And on the other hand, even when George w– Bush was president or Obama that that was already happening there.

45:35

This has been happening on and was probably much more neutral when they were the people.

Yes.

President.

And when Barack Obama was President and I think you know, I think it has become intensely partisan.

You’re right.

I mean you can watch Snooze and have feel like you live in a different country.

45:52

Sure.

And when you watch MSNBC, do for fun.

When I’m at a hotel room.

I do traveling.

I go back and forth to watch them cover the same story.

I do they bear.

No resemblance.

Yeah, the middle that someone could go like, let me check in with the middle to see what may be.

46:08

The you know, the blurring of all these facts might well, I think probably the evening.

Newscast are the most down the line.

I but I think certainly on cable, it has become just bitterly Bipartisan, and I think there is a meanness and I don’t know whether that’s because we have a president who’s kind of routinely mean, but there does seem to be kind of a nastiness that is imbued all the coverage, I think and Infused all the coverage.

46:34

Yeah, and you know, I was watching Laura Ingram on Fox when I was traveling and she was doing the whole LeBron James take down and I was just like, God, that is so Nasty, I don’t even I missed the law but that was when she said dribble and shut up.

46:54

Oh, Greg.

Shut up and dribble.

Do understand.

And it was just, it was so, you know, I guess she didn’t like something that he had said and he is anti-trump and then she thought he shouldn’t do that and the whole thing felt.

So just vitriolic.

47:11

Yeah, honestly and awful.

It’s it’s it’s very hard to, I don’t know.

It’s hard to have that in your head.

Head all the time.

And that’s why I think probably, you know, the ratings are really high on Fox and CNN, and MSNBC.

47:28

It’s all been great for television late night.

But it, but, yeah, but at the same time it does feel like, can’t, we all want to say a Rodney King?

Like, man, we all get along but it does make it hard to find common ground and I think one of the reasons in there’s been some recent science science to support this which is if you look at people’s brains, If during a MRI or whatever you, by the way, Monica corrects us at the end of this, you’ll leave.

47:56

She’ll listen to it and okay.

Okay.

Yeah, if you look at people’s brains while they start talking about politics, that you see the Senate, the area of the brain.

That is your identity, right?

And any time people are discussing things that potentially affect their identity.

That’s when you see the most outsize reactions, the vitriol what you’re talking about.

48:15

So even the fact that people listen to our language, you go.

I’m I’m a Democrat.

I’m a conservative.

I am a liberal.

Well, no, you’re not those things.

You’re a father.

You’re a mother.

You’re a daughter.

Those are identities.

These are ideas.

48:31

You have that you happen to support or not support, but because it’s filed and I am pro-life.

I am pro-choice when you start talking about that topic, your identities being threatened, and you will fight very hard to protect your own identity to the death.

48:49

And so That just the way we frame all these things is a little dangerous that that is I am a liberal.

Will know, I have some liberal thoughts and I have some conservative thoughts and I have whatever, you know, I think that’s where it gets really dangerous.

49:04

If you’re only getting, as I said, affirmation, not information, or humans are almost incapable of receiving new information.

You basically have opinions and then you find other information to support that opinion and then you throw out and reject information that threatens that opinion.

So what’s great.

And that’s what we were talking about earlier as systems can, counteract that.

49:22

So, humans are very bad at this but systems are good at it.

Peer review is great at, science is great.

At the Academia has been traditionally very good at this and left to your own devices.

You really can’t escape confirmation bias, any of us, and I think it’s uncomfortable, right?

49:38

It requires, listening.

It requires processing and requires thinking, Hmm.

And I think all those things that the world is working against.

Yeah.

Yeah, those Tendencies or and so that’s one of the things.

49:54

Honestly, I tried to do in this series is to help people develop empathy for people who are different than they are.

So one of them I did on being what is it like to be a Muslim in America right now with so much and islamophobia?

When Kemal know Jionni hosted SNL.

50:11

He said islamophobia, is having a moment and I wanted to understand what it’s like to be a Muslim in this country, right?

Now, given the rhetoric, giving the given the talk of the travel ban.

And, you know, I’m hoping that people in fifty percent of Americans, say they’ve never met a Muslim.

50:28

They probably have, they just don’t realize like when you use asked, if they knew gay person in their 80s, no, yeah, and so I wanted to give Muslim Americans, a chance to talk about it and I wanted to also provide a counter narrative to what we’re hearing.

50:45

What?

We’re seeing how our biases are being formed by what?

People hear on the news on television, Georgia state did a study and said when a Muslim person commits a terrorist act it gets four and a half times the newspaper coverage as when a white American commits a terrorist Act and the way these acts are framed by the media and by politicians are so different.

51:08

Yeah that no wonder it feeds into our confirmation bias, right?

Or supplies.

And we’re born xenophobic are.

We have in-group out-group us?

That’s all hardwired into there.

And if you think you’re going to overcome that without a pretty sophisticated apparatus to help you overcome that, you know, it just it’s your state of nature right?

51:30

Is to do us and them.

I see my four-year-old daughter.

I like a certain motorcycle racer and so he just watched the race with her and she was like, I hope those other guys lose like, she already fit, you know, it’s just in her to know.

Oh, that guy’s got a win in those guys got to lose and I was watching like, oh, this is just the circuitry.

51:47

It’s that you’re also modeling for.

Her right?

Yeah, but I wasn’t saying, I hope those other guys lose.

I’m just saying, I love Valentino Rossi.

Ouch.

I do Katie so much.

Yeah.

Listen, I want, I’m respecting seen, by the way, isn’t it?

It’s, you know, it’s interesting to talk about these things.

52:03

I have this very remarkable experience during the course of making this documentary series.

I went to Johnstown, Pennsylvania.

Yeah.

And spent some time with some EMS workers and I wanted to hear their their reaction to sort of hot.

52:19

And cultural issues.

So I asked them what they thought of Colin Kaepernick and the take any movement and what what was being done at NFL games and then I ask them.

What do you think when you hear Black lives matter?

Uh-huh, and it’s a group of white men.

All gather around a table or eating cold pizza and they said all lives matter, right?

52:39

And you know, I started talking a little bit about systemic racism in the long tail of sort of what’s what this country has been about.

Yeah.

We’ve never really.

College debt, which is the subject of another hour.

I’m doing on Confederate statues.

But anyway, so an EMS worker named Carlos walked in and he’s African-American and he said he started talking about what black lives matter means to him.

53:06

Yeah, and he said, you know, when I was younger, I would read articles about men being lynched for looking at white women.

Mike you need pointed at me.

Yeah, and you know, He talked about the civil rights movement and he talked about the hatred that existed towards African-Americans.

53:25

And he said he was much more eloquent than I am right now.

But he just in a very measured way kind of talked about how he proceeded, Oracle content text, right?

And and, and all the guys around the table just listened and they said, wow, just listening to Carlos, talk about this.

53:45

Yeah, really has changed my perspective.

Yeah, it will.

And I was like if people sat around a table, I think I said this in the episode and talked and shared their experience and ate cold pizza.

And one of the guys even said we’ve never talked about this because we didn’t want to make you feel awkward.

54:03

Well, maybe people need to feel a little awkward and a little more open to hearing and because it is not black and white, right?

But even in that situation, what was helpful is that he was an us, he could because they were EMTs together, right?

54:18

They were called work.

Is.

Yeah, there was a level of us and I think of white people are watching a black person interviewed on the Nightly News.

That person is them and you need some binding agent to have your ears open, right?

So luckily in that scenario.

54:34

They came to know this guy and he was now us and not them, you know, they didn’t find him.

Threatening your point and they and you know, they say that the biggest Leap Forward in race relations ever was the Vietnam War weirdly because that was the first time we had non-segregated.

And troops.

54:49

And was the first time white people from the middle of the country are living next to black folks and they’re talking to them and realizing.

Oh, we’re fucking the same thing and it’s hugely helpful, right?

To be interacting with one another and realizing there isn’t an Us and Them, which is hard.

But also, you know, the kind of narratives that were fed that feed our implicit biases, also need to be altered.

55:12

You know, when I in the Muslim episode in 2000.

Eight, I want to say, I can’t remember the year.

I was interviewing some actors from this show in Canada called little mosque on the Prairie.

Okay.

It really just portrayed a Muslim family.

55:29

Mmm.

And I said, you know, I think in America, we need a Muslim version of The Cosby Show.

This was before we knew about Bill Cosby.

So, yeah, you know, keep that in mind.

I got ya.

I got a serrated for making that suggestion.

55:46

Oh, really?

But the thing is, that’s what most Muslim families are like in this country.

And I think, because we, so see, so little depicted.

Yeah, of normal, you know, Muslim Americans who are, you know, share our values and believe in.

56:02

What we, what sort of we collectively Believe As Americans, we don’t have a counter narrative and I think that’s, that’s really important.

And I think we were in the current climate were we Get any kind of counter Narrative of any kind.

56:20

I believe we’re getting about the most extreme info from the left.

The most extreme 10% of the left and the most extreme temper sent from the right.

I think they’re making the headlines.

So it’s very deceptive.

Actually, I think went like when I’m out in the real world, I don’t find it as I feared as I’m led to believe if I go on Twitter.

56:36

Hmm.

Listen, I’m very respectful of your time.

So I just want to ask you a couple more personal things before you leave us.

It’s gonna be sad when you do that because you’re a female.

Yes, I’ve noticed.

Is this about you?

I’m looking at last time I checked.

Yeah, and you raise daughters.

56:52

You have two daughters.

I do.

And did you at all Wrestle with the thing?

That my wife knows with that?

A lot of women?

I know wrestle with, which is, if you’re not pursuing your career and you’re at home, you’re feeling guilty.

And then when you’re pursuing your career and you’re not at home, you’re feeling guilty.

57:08

This like this terrible thing that is put upon women to just basically live in a state of guilt did that at all plague you not as much.

Is it my other moms?

Because I was very lucky.

I could go home at noon or 1:00 and pick my daughter’s up from school.

57:25

It’s great.

I traveled some, you know, course my situation when my husband died.

My daughters were just two and six.

And so that was obviously an incredibly challenging thing, but I feel very strongly that women need to be financially independent and have their own thing.

57:46

I Respect people who stay at home and raise their families if they have that choice and that luxury.

Yeah, but I also feel that you never know what’s around the corner and it’s really important for you to develop your whole sense of self as someone who is also contributing to the world if possible.

58:04

Yeah, and that, you know, those that’s really what I wanted to.

Teach my daughter’s, the importance of being independent.

And yes, at times, I felt guilty about Not being there.

I missed when my daughter Ellie first walked.

58:20

I think I was in Barcelona covering the Olympics.

Uh-huh, but they turned have turned out really really.

Well.

They’re great young women.

I think they have an extraordinary sense of themselves and about their potential and what they can do in the world.

58:37

And I just think that kids really benefit from seeing that.

Yeah.

In your husband was 42 when he died.

Yeah.

So, and you are, were you.

I was 41.

You were 41.

And now I live in abject Terror of this scenario because we have three and four-year-old, and I just think, oh my God, what if tomorrow?

58:57

I’m doing this all by myself.

Did you have a support system?

Be like grief counseling.

How do you?

It’s my estimation about the worst thing that can happen to somebody, you know, yeah, I think well, no your child being sick - yeah?

Losing a child I think is yeah.

59:14

I don’t know how one goes on but I mean II don’t think we have to rate like how One thing is over, another tragedies are tragedies.

And, you know, listen, I was lucky in that I had a job.

59:31

I loved, I had a very supportive community of people who watch me on the Today Show.

It’s horrific enough to have that experience privately, but to show up to work when that is I’m sure of national headline.

Are you how do you not?

59:47

How are you?

Just not so self-conscious that everyone in this room is thinking about this.

Hmm.

Did you have that feeling when my husband was sick for nine months?

And for me because when he was diagnosed, he had metastatic colon cancer.

And for me, the two hours, at the time, I did the Today Show were kind of a respite from Ryan King, about him, and find find a Magic Bullet.

1:00:09

Find a better treat.

Man.

I was doing tons of research on the side because he didn’t really want to know.

Yeah, just unusual and interesting because he was exceedingly intelligent and I took it upon myself to call pharmaceutical companies and Israel and to talk to universities and call NIH because I had some access to somebody going through your and but but it was helpful for me to have those two hours where I could focus on something else and it really required my undivided attention.

1:00:42

Yeah, but you know that.

I think back on that whole period of time and it’s still so surreal for me.

We’re kind of going through the motions.

And, you know, we were on top of the world, Jay was loving his work in New York.

1:00:59

I had this job.

I never imagined in a million years.

I would get just, I’m just, never during that period with children were selling, just this bubble of and my girls were so great.

I always say to people enjoy that sweet spot.

I know your dad passed away of cancer.

1:01:15

My stepfather is very much on his last legs with prostate cancer.

But that sweet spot in your life when your kids are little and your parents are healthy.

Uh-huh.

It’s such a wonderful time.

And you have to really say, I wish I could just freeze frame.

1:01:33

This moment in my life and you can’t see, you just have to really, and did you have the awareness at the time while it was happening and go like, oh, this is The Sweet Spot.

I mean, I think maybe occasionally I did.

But probably not enough.

That’s hard to keep reminding yourself.

1:01:48

Yeah, I tried to say it out loud as often as I can.

So I’ll start McNally.

Yeah, but you know, you get through it because you have to get through it.

You don’t have a choice.

You have children again.

Imagine.

There’s a, there’s a humongous dose of Sorrow on your end because your partner and someone you’ve sworn to be with rest of your life has passed.

1:02:04

But then you’ve seen the love for their father.

You’ve seen your daughter’s, I assume.

They loved him like crazy and you is that even more?

Breaking knowing that that’s going away for your kids because I certainly care more about what my kids are going through than what I’m going through.

1:02:21

So is that component everything?

You know, you just think about the fact that, you know, their dad is never going to be there for all before even more moments in their lives and to shape them.

And I’m sure he J would have had a lot to do with the people, they eventually became.

1:02:41

Yeah.

Yeah, of course, it’s heartbreaking for them.

It’s heartbreaking.

Breaking for me and to think about them having to not have a dad at these moments.

You know, I remember there was a father-daughter dance at Ellie’s school.

And, you know, I went to the school and I said, there were three little girls who don’t have Dad’s at the school.

1:03:03

Do you think we can get rid of this tradition?

We have it like a special person.

Yeah.

Sea otter dance because you know, kids don’t like to be different.

No.

And You know, so yeah.

Those are the little things.

1:03:18

You wouldn’t blame.

You know, that that made it really painful, but you know, you just it.

Moving forward is what it is.

Yeah, you know, and did you have a tactic that you employed to just keep moving forward?

1:03:34

It, would you go to therapy or did you have any like, grief support group or anything like that?

I mean, I think I, yeah, I I did go to therapy.

And I had my daughter who was six go and talk to somebody because I always feel like you never regret getting.

1:03:55

She’s like a logical help.

You regret not getting it.

Yeah, absolutely.

And Carrie was only too.

So she was too little and I think that, you know, I tried to support them and do everything I possibly could I talk to their school.

1:04:11

I helped put together a handbook for private schools in New York.

Because as people have children older, this happens more often now and I didn’t feel the school was especially prepared or equipped to deal with it.

Yeah, when a, when a parent dies, what were you?

1:04:28

I would imagine self-pity at that point is a very attractive option.

Did you?

I can’t imagine having to really try to steer myself out of going.

Oh, the world, the universe is conspiring against me, or I’ve had so much good fortune in my life.

This makes sense.

1:04:44

Now, they’re now Getting even with me.

I don’t.

Are you crazy like me or no?

I don’t.

I didn’t sort of go through the eat, you know, getting even thing.

But I did have sort of a very problem-free life until I was 40.

And then the decade between 40 and 50 was really challenging.

1:05:02

I lost my sister to pancreatic cancer after my husband died.

And you said something really cool.

Though.

Is that you you got a colonoscopy on TV, right?

And it led to all these people getting colonoscopies and they called it, the Rick effect, right?

You did your house.

1:05:17

So that is that is what an amazing way to turn something that you’re so powerless against into something positive.

Yeah.

I mean that is I would I had I was very fortunate because I have this built-in bully pulpit and I could actually educate people.

1:05:33

And I always, you know, there are a lot of people have these terrible losses and you do feel so powerless during the course of a disease, and, you know, there’s just nothing you can do.

It doesn’t matter how successful.

Peaceful, you are buy your way out of have her or fame your way out.

1:05:50

And and I think that you know, I felt a real obligation that I had an audience that might be receptive because they saw me going through this that they might be educated about this and prevent it.

1:06:06

And that that has been an incredibly gratifying part of my life to be able to do that.

I just took Jimmy Kimmel to get a call.

Ask Abby.

Oh, it’s one of those things you have to keep reminding people and when they turn 50 and 45 if you’re African-American, you have to get your first client your screen, you know, your Baseline.

1:06:26

Colonoscopy.

I work with the Prostate Cancer Foundation.

And yeah, African-Americans are twice as likely to die of that disease.

African-American men, prostate cancer.

Yes, prostate cancer, but I took Jimmy, he was such a good sport, you know, because you know, I feel like He’ll reach, what a day, W Ian.

1:06:47

Yeah, he he really was great.

And he’s taken a strong interest in issues regarding People’s Health.

And so that’ll be really fun.

And they did a funny skit with it and I was sort of his his date for his colonoscopy.

1:07:03

And I’m going to, I’m going to lighten it up by telling you my colonoscopy experience.

Would you get a call on us?

I’ve had so many it would make your head spin.

Here’s because I had a grandfather who died of stomach cancer.

And then I’ve had other members that I’ll keep.

Private, but suffice to say it’s run rampant in my family, right?

1:07:19

So at about 16, my mother’s like you’re getting a colonoscopy 16.

Yes, because I have a very young members of my family have gotten this so it was warranted.

So I go and get my first colonoscopy at 16 not what a 16 year old boys dying to do.

1:07:34

Yeah, and then I was getting them every five years since then and the last one I went to which weirdly enough I was prepping for it.

When I was with Jimmy Kimmel on a trip.

And you know, it’s miserable to wear in Memphis and everyone’s eating barbecue and I’m drinking that crazy fluid.

1:07:53

It’s just terrible and all accounts.

And then, so I go to get my colonoscopy in the doctor, which is a new one.

He goes.

Okay.

So why are you getting these so often?

And why did you start so early and I go, oh, cuz of familial pal.

Pope is for.

Well.

How are you?

So right?

So you have yeah, that’s a very hereditary form.

1:08:08

Yes, so I go because of that and he goes, okay.

So your what your dad’s dad died of it and I go no my mom’s dad.

He goes, oh, it doesn’t travel on the male and the female side, you do not need to be so you didn’t need to get any of those.

Really?

Yes, that it doesn’t travel.

1:08:26

Look, I’m probably misinforming people.

But again, Monica will tell me if I’m wrong.

At least, this doctor told me that that it would, it would have had to have been on my father’s side.

I’m not sure if that’s right.

Monica.

I love you need to fact-check that, she’ll dig into that.

So you had it so you gotta figure Point as I know you’re polyposis which does affect so I may have gotten In like 10 that I didn’t need.

1:08:46

Yeah.

Well, did you enjoy them?

You know, did you enjoy the anesthesia?

Well, I’ll tell you, this does give you a nice nap.

It does.

And what’s nice is they give you versed before?

They give you the knockout?

Yes.

So the versed is a benzo.

It’s like a Xanax or something and I’m sober for 13 years.

1:09:03

So, yes, it’s a nice freebie.

There’s about a minute where you’re just feeling the versed before you go out and for me, that’s kind of worth it.

So your daughters are they’re doing well.

They’ve gone to college, they Things that you would pray that they would do.

My daughter is graduate.

My younger daughter is graduating this spring summer in June.

1:09:24

So I guess before the start of summer and my other daughter, graduated in 2013.

Now, the dream is as a parent that your kids would think you’re cool.

And in our experience, we have the only two kids who don’t care about Frozen ironic.

Really?

Yeah.

And so, do your come on, despite that your daughter’s mother, is Katie Couric this This just Zenith of female empowerment and in should be something a source of great.

1:09:51

Great pride.

Our that were they embarrassed by you growing up.

Can you be cool to your kids?

Were you the one person, you know, they, they would get embarrassed about things that I would do.

But in general, I think they’re really proud of me.

Honestly.

I think they feel not always proud of me, but I think they feel that I’ve really tried to have a positive impact in the world.

1:10:12

When Ellie was in fourth grade.

She said to me and the Jim Mom, I’m really proud of the things you’re doing about colon cancer.

That was so moving to me and, you know, but she’s also said to me, once I remember when I was in a interviewed for a woman’s magazine.

1:10:27

She said, you know, I’d prefer you don’t tell stories about me.

I feel like, that’s my yeah.

Yeah, personal information and I don’t I feel like you shouldn’t be sharing things like that.

Aha, so that’s cool.

I think we’ve had an incredibly open extremely close relationship and my younger daughter.

1:10:46

Who just got into Columbia journalism school?

I hope she goes said, you know, when I come back to New York.

I hope we can spend some time together because I want us to be closer, which I thought was so sweet.

Yeah, he probably is going to get bad.

I hopefully she won’t hear this but no.

1:11:01

So so I think we have a really wonderful strong relationship and I have to say, I’m very proud of my girls because most importantly, they’re kind.

Nice, young women.

Yeah.

They’re also I think Super hard, you know, they’re not entitled at all.

1:11:19

That’s hard to do and they’re not bratty.

I think and I think they have exceptionally High.

Emotional intelligence.

Yeah.

Those are all lovely things.

Yeah.

Last thing I want to ask you about and then you can get out of my attic.

Okay.

What are you eating, by the way?

1:11:35

Amen?

So addicted to nicotine.

It’s Preposterous.

Oh, really?

So that is smoking 12 years ago.

And so, do you do you eat those a lot?

Oh, you better believe it.

So Round the Clock is that there’s no downside.

There isn’t no nicotine in and of itself is not bad for you.

1:11:53

It raises your blood pressure a little bit, but I have moderate to low blood pressure.

So not an issue.

Yeah, can also delay the onset of Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s some seriously.

Yeah.

Wow, can I have one of those?

Yeah, you can take, you can take them off.

Tell me what when is your, when is your documentary airing?

1:12:09

So it’s a documentary Series in 6 hours series doc you soon?

And it can burn style.

Yeah, notnot 20 hours or whatever, Vietnam.

I admire Ken so much does just amazing amazing work.

So even being you know, mentioned in the same sentence as him, I’m it premieres on April 11th.

1:12:32

Uh-huh.

And that’s the episode really examining Confederate iconography and I Memorial landscape and I was in Charlottesville during that horrific.

Take unite the right rally because icon there to explore how this whole controversy over the Robert E Lee statue began, which it began with a 16 year old high school student who you know did a petition about it and that’s how sort of the ball got rolling.

1:12:59

But I was there for that rally and I travel all over the country including a conversation with Brian Stevenson who’s opening up a lynching Museum in April this month because that’s a part of our American history.

We’ve never Really acknowledged or come to terms with and he’s the most extraordinary person.

1:13:21

Yay.

Can I just say from my point of view in school?

I learned all we had slavery.

That was deplorable but Emancipation Proclamation, Abe Lincoln were good.

We abolished it.

And that was that.

I’m now reading the Ulysses S Grant biography and it’s so good at detailing.

What that next eight years was like?

1:13:38

And I was just people setting up shop at polling stations and just gunning down black folks that We’re going to vote.

It, did not end like it and they really kind of whitewash that in my, at least my education.

I wasn’t aware of, you know, I thought.

Oh, I like a light switch.

1:13:54

We did the right thing and that was that and oh, no decades and Decades of virtually no improvement.

Whatsoever.

Exactly.

And some of the things I learned and exploring.

This is when the statues were erected.

And what was the message behind them?

A lot were put up after Brown V Board of Education.

1:14:12

Yep, you know, in the Years, following the That and kind of hard to describe, but I just want people to understand the backstory and that it isn’t black and white and to understand why these things are considered so offensive.

1:14:27

Mmm.

Yeah.

And Americans in this country.

It’s just it’s very interesting.

But anyway, that’s an episode.

And then we have five more.

Yeah, it’s on the National Geographic Channel.

And so, I did Muslims in America.

I did this whole PC Nation.

What’s going on with cultural appropriation safe spaces?

1:14:44

Has microaggressions trigger warnings, an examination of that, I did gender, and equality in Hollywood and Silicon Valley, you know, these all predated, by the way, the me to movement, right?

And and film these.

What a year ago.

I started in August working on these.

1:15:01

So I’ve been shooting for about a month.

I months, I did an hour on white anxiety, to help people understand kind of what’s going on in some of these smaller cities, and, you know, the Rust Belt and Rural America, I went to Storm Lake Iowa, and Fremont.

1:15:17

Nebraska places.

I would never visit and run for office.

That’s people.

It did make me realize that we really people are in a bubble.

They’re not out talking to people about their problems, their concerns, that their lives, their triumphs, and their tragedies.

1:15:35

And it’s, it’s, you can see why there’s a resentment on the part of people who feel that the media and other.

Ins are out of touch because in many ways, they really are sure.

Yeah, I’m lucky enough that all my hobbies are all red State, kind of hobbies into off-roading and all these other things.

1:15:53

I’m constantly submerged in an opposing Viewpoint of my own as at the height of the, the election, you know, a year ago November and we went out to the sand dunes Kristen and I with our kids and we’re out there and it’s largely Trump flags on the back of doom buggies.

1:16:09

And, you know, we’d be sitting around talking with other families and I would go oh this As a dad, oh, he went through a lot to get his family out here to do this recreational thing.

And look at this guy, pushing his kids on the swing set and all these things and, oh, where you guys from and where do you run a motor home?

1:16:24

You know, all these conversations were happening and I was able to go like, oh, yeah, all that political stuff.

It’s it’s like number 9 of what I would judge someone’s character on.

It’s like, first I was like, this guy’s a great dad to this guy loves, you know, he loves his kids.

1:16:40

He’s a good husband.

He, you know, he’s a hard worker, these all All these things that are that are actions, they’re not thought their actions.

If I judge this man by his actions, very admirable human being and it just kind of right-sized how much I care about a political difference, you know, if I just looking at the what the human is, it just kind of right size.

1:17:02

It all was a good good timing for us to go there.

Because obviously, we’re is much in a Chambers.

Anyone else.

We have really, really demonized.

Oh, other absolutely such a degree that I The left’s, full explanation of trump is that, you know, thirty percent of the country is racist.

1:17:18

I’m just like, that’s way too simple.

It’s too dismissive.

It Stewie.

I just I reject that.

I don’t think that’s.

It’s also because what you said, we are currently in a space.

That’s so extreme.

The actual things that are being said, or so extreme by the candidates.

So when a Muslim person is at the Sand Dunes talking to that person, they can say like, oh, he’s a good provider.

1:17:39

He’s a good father, but he is voting for someone that is going to ban me from living here.

Here.

Yes, and if I’m not Muslim and that situation that is 100% how I would feel as well, but I can look at that guy and go, you know what?

I bet his I bet he has a single kind of a single-issue voter its economies.

1:17:57

Yeah jobs and I think it’s it’s so he might actually be sympathetic to that or he might go.

I don’t believe in this wall.

Are you don’t but this issue for me, the other ones unfortunately are going to fall below the priority many.

I you can’t generalize but I think this whole notion A bringing back jobs, whether he’ll be able to do that or not is of course a big question mark But even caring about that even wanting even being responsive to that feeling of, you know, their deaths of Despair among these communities from drug overdoses, alcoholism and a huge spike in suicides.

1:18:34

Yeah, and I think to feel that you’re included that you’re heard and that your cared about was really hard or something.

Saying, look this system is not working for those people.

It’s not working for them.

And someone’s actually going.

1:18:50

Well, this systems broke which certainly takes the onus off of you, you know, it’s comforting to know.

I’m the victim of a flawed system, and this person is going to hopefully fix the system.

I see the appeal of it.

You know, I personally don’t feel excluded from this system.

I’m lucky as hell.

1:19:06

I’m if anything benefiting from the system, so I’m not as critical of it, but I know other people that feel very marginalized by the system, you know, yeah.

Yeah, it’s also though.

A lack of like hearing both sides and saying this person is also saying that there’s the system is broken and, but that’s not the solution.

1:19:23

Yeah, here’s a different solution.

It’s just, yeah, everyone.

I think you’re, you know, when you’re really worried about feeding your family and paying your mortgage.

Exactly.

That’s what is really speaking to you.

More than some of these other issues that maybe you’d be surprised about their point of view, but it’s not, What’s propelling them?

1:19:45

Yeah.

To vote a certain way.

And you know, that couple of guys, I talked to in Erie.

I sat in a bar and just, you know, shot the shit with the other guys and no, no an area.

I had a, I had a, I had a beer and I’m a big Beer Drinker, but you know, they said, hey, we voted for Obama twice and we just, I think they saw the life that they expected kind of crumbling before their eyes, and they felt that somebody Cared about them.

1:20:14

Look at this this this Flint Netflix series.

That just came out.

Eight parts on Flint.

I’m from Michigan.

Oh I did.

Oh, I think on Lifetime about Flint.

Well, yeah Queen Latifah, which was a really good movie.

A Lifetime movie.

What’s it called?

Its called plant.

Oh, but yeah, you look at that Community, you know, the Auto industry is left and you’ve got a hundred thousand people who are living below, you know, many, many of them in below the poverty line, that the police department’s, got a third of what they’re supposed to have.

1:20:42

You look at all these And if I live in Flint, Michigan, I need someone to say like this thing’s fucked up.

This is broken.

I need, you know, so I can, I can totally sympathize with with that one.

Just last point, which I think is.

So interesting.

1:20:58

Is this huge transformation, we’re witnessing and the world of work where automation 38% of jobs.

I think, are going to be lost to automation, but there was an our next 15 years.

I think we have to help figure.

1:21:14

Her out.

Yeah, what people are going to do free training.

Yeah, that has to be part of well, or even a living.

Yeah.

What do they call it?

Universal public income?

What do they call it?

Um, it’s just amazing.

How, how it, how transformative technology is in every Arena and I would love the presidential candidates or the president himself to start really examining what this means.

1:21:42

If, in fact 38 Saint of jobs, may be lost Automation in the next 15 years.

That is extraordinary.

It’s in short.

How are we educating people?

I’m and I’m not talking about retraining.

I’m talking about trainee, you know how it, how is our educational system going to respond to that?

1:22:00

How do we help people?

Who mid-career?

Like a lot of these people I spoke to him.

I white anxiety.

Our are going to adjust, so they’ll have something a paying job in the future.

These are huge huge.

Huge issues more people are talking about it now.

1:22:16

Yeah, but I feel like our politicians really aren’t.

Yeah, I think you know when it’s ninety percent unemployment and there is a stipend from the government, fine.

That’s going to be great to me.

It’s when you get to 40% unemployment, that’s Civil War time.

You guys.

1:22:32

It’s the transition before.

Everything is actually being provided by all this robotics.

Not to mention like, you know the role they’re going to play and Modern Warfare and yeah.

And it’s a very complicated and really scary and altering thing to think about.

1:22:49

I’m an optimist part.

We’ll figure it out.

I think.

Well, you don’t think the robots are going to turn on us and I don’t think I’m missing some primitive Hardware.

That makes us egomaniacs.

Yeah.

Mating.

I think it’s fascinating to see how do you navigate?

I have to imagine your job as a little bit, similar to an actor’s in that there is occasionally job insecurity or relevance and security are all these things.

1:23:11

So you’ve navigated a very long career, but I have to imagine I mean from my perspective it’s all been as I said all Peaks, but I’m sure there’s been many times where you felt like, okay, the rides over I’m pulling back into the station.

Is that is that plague?

1:23:27

You are you inordinately confident and optimistic.

I mean, of course it plagues me.

I usually just try to focus on the work itself.

What can I do that?

I’m really going to enjoy.

Hmm.

What am I good at?

What skills?

Do I have that are?

1:23:44

Now different and how can I employ them?

And what I do on a daily basis.

I do, we live in a very unfair world for women in particular.

Yeah.

We’re yeah, that age out women way quicker than men.

Yeah, you know, I think well, not only that but the whole idea of a glass Cliff when a woman fails, there we go class.

1:24:04

We will check big megillah, but man fail up and you know men blame other people, women blame themselves.

Like there’s this whole kind of Different way that, that women and men are perceived and cope individually or personally with success and failure.

1:24:21

But, you know, I don’t know.

I just sort of him having fun.

I keep doing things that I think are important.

That filling need that isn’t being filled right now.

Did you get to a point where you were able to finally go like, all right, shut up brain.

If I look at the facts, the history of my life.

1:24:37

I’ve stayed employed.

Everything’s worked out.

When did you feel finally?

Like, you know what?

I’m good, I do.

To prove anything anymore.

And just the facts would suggest I’m going to land on my feet all the time and just stop worrying about it.

Keep moving forward.

No, I wish I could be more like that.

1:24:53

Okay, good.

Good.

I’m good because I aspire to that and I would have been very jealous.

No, no.

No, I mean, I always feel like I have something else to do and something else to conquer and maybe I’m egotistical enough to think that I have something else to offer.

Uh-huh.

So I like being in the mix.

1:25:11

I like talking about important issues.

I I like contributing any way.

I can.

I like adjusting to technology and the way people are consuming and the way you deliver information.

So I’ve really embraced, you know, things like podcasting.

1:25:30

I do a weekly podcast myself.

I have embraced some people called ready for it.

Katie Couric, man.

I sample hard to forget.

I need a better one.

I need like an armchair egg.

No, you gotta stick, you got No, no.

No, I really want to change the name.

1:25:46

So if you guys have any ideas, okay, tell your listeners is to come up with a better.

But would you ever take an anchor job again?

Probably not.

I don’t really think of it that way.

I think of what is the project and where can it get to people and how do you?

1:26:02

Yeah, because I don’t think people recognize that even the world’s most exciting jobs become routine after a while is this is as Dreadful as that is to admit publicly.

But even for me, acting was much more.

Fun 15 years ago than it is today.

Simply just because I’ve done it, a bunch of yams.

1:26:18

And I would imagine any job as spectacular as it is.

You’re ready for some change.

Yeah, and I also like the idea of controlling my own destiny, not having to work for someone not having to suck up to people to get good assignments and not having to be at the whim of some person because it’s often times very subjective.

1:26:40

Yeah, when you’re an on camera person, or when you’re an actor, right?

I mean, it’s Like somebody like you, somebody doesn’t but the thing is, you know, I also feel like as somebody I’m 61 and why should I be aged out of doing what I do?

And I feel a responsibility that, you know, I have probably a lot more experience and a lot of people, why should I step aside?

1:27:05

If I feel like I still have something to offer?

Yes, because I’m not 32 anymore and I think part of it is, we become Um, condition in an almost pavlovian way to see to see somebody who looks a certain way on camera.

And then you see somebody who looks older, you’re like, what happened?

1:27:24

And I think it’s really important to see older people, you know, Bob Schieffer did Fascination for years and years morally Schaefer on.

See.

Yeah.

And yeah, and well, I guess you do see some older women, but very rarely like, Leslie styles, for example, but, you know, and so have a crush on Leslie.

1:27:42

Yeah.

She’s a Our house.

So, you know, I think that’s really important that people.

They, they see it and it’s not such a shock where I grew up.

I can’t, I can’t, it’s hard for me to unplug this fantasy.

I have over your work, really hard.

1:27:58

You have some success and then you retire and you go to Florida right or wherever you go and Boca, I don’t know.

Yeah, and do you have that fantasy or do you go know I enjoy working.

And I don’t have a plan to not work.

Yeah.

1:28:14

I have a very hard time thinking about this idea of retiring or, you know, I would like to have a little more time to travel with my husband.

I have a great husband and he’s really funny and smart and interesting, and it’s because I’m crazy because he thinks I’m like, this workaholic being.

1:28:34

Yeah.

That’s that’s sometimes how I think of my wife, but I have to be a workaholic.

She likes the work.

Yeah, but my mother loved to work, so it’s yeah.

Here, isn’t it?

And take a Freudian therapist to figure out how I ended up.

Yeah, but someone who loves to work, it’s very attractive to me.

1:28:50

Oh, do you, do you want to retire?

And yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, what would you do with your time?

Motors?

That, although you what?

Yeah, and you said always tired of that though.

Well, there’s only one way to find out.

I mean presumably I would because I get tired of anything I can write but yeah anything that has an accelerator pedal or on the handlebars I seem to I can spend endless time doing that.

1:29:12

But at the same time to your Point.

I do think it’s really important to be ever expanding your mind.

And if you’re not, if you’re not engaged in something, I don’t know how you keep expanding it, you know, and I feel like a dedication to continually expanding.

1:29:29

Yeah.

And which, I think keeps you vibrant and Youthful and Alive.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As Sam Harris, said, recently, when we saw him live being drugged sometimes, kicking and Into A New Perspective, once you get to that New Perspective, it’s incredibly rewarding.

1:29:48

And I would hate to think that my days of being drug to A New Perspective would end, you know, yeah, I agree.

And, and just learning all the time and there’s constant, there’s a constant opportunity to learn.

Hmm.

And, you know, and I have things, I care deeply about stand up to cancer.

1:30:05

Is something I co-founded, and I want to definitely stay involved in that and, you know, it’s a whole new landscape.

Tape to I think there might have been a time with limited Outlets that you exhausted those and there’s not much you can do but now with disintermediation and being able to create things and yeah build things out of nothing.

1:30:29

The opportunity to meet be much more entrepreneurial and not work and and sort of a corporate environment.

Yeah.

Has never been better.

Yeah, so, you know, I think you can keep going as long as you want to keep going.

Yeah, you can you Make it exactly what you’d want it to be.

1:30:45

Yeah, assuming you have that leverage, which I think you do and will continue to have.

I’m so flattered that you came to talk to you, so fun.

It really exciting.

Thank you, armchair expert.

Hey, well anyways, I say this sincerely, I have a very strong wonderful mother.

1:31:03

I’ve been blessed to have her raised me and I’m so so drawn to other successful prolific ambitious, engaged female.

I’m so glad Glad you’re around, and I’m glad that my daughters have someone to look at like, you.

1:31:18

Well, they’re going to be a lot better.

They’re going to be a lot more of us and their generation.

Yeah, we would think so, and hopefully that’ll eat them all kinds of good things.

All right, Katie Couric.

I love you.

Thank you for coming.

Stay tuned.

If you’d like to hear my good friend and producer, Monica badman point out.

1:31:36

The many errors is the podcast.

You discern.

All right, Monica, let’s do Katie Couric.

Okay.

Well, one thing I do want to say, I got a lot of pushback from last week’s fact-check because I said, whooping, cough was tuberculosis and it’s not.

1:31:57

Okay.

It’s actually / / ptosis.

Mmm.

A lot of people told me that, so I stand corrected.

Great.

And so in good news, if you’ve got whooping cough, you don’t have tuberculosis.

Deuces, Bert, but I didn’t.

1:32:15

I was just saying that off.

The fly.

That wasn’t a check.

Yeah, it’s really hard sometimes because we’re kind of making jokes on the Fly and we’re talking about serious stuff and look, the bottom line.

Is this fucking thing’s never going to be perfect.

You know, right, get interrupt.

Some we’re gonna do a little better but you know, it is what it is it some point, right?

1:32:32

Actually, we’re sorry and we’ll try to do better tuberculosis graduations.

You have whooping cough.

What if the doctor said I’ve got good news and bad.

News.

The bad news is you have whooping cough.

The good news is, you don’t have to Berkeley US, silver lining.

1:32:48

Yeah, Katie talked about the LeBron James take down Laura Ingram’s, takedown of a bron James.

And we didn’t know what that was was this where someone tweeted just dribble the basketball or something.

She she’s a Fox News, anchor.

1:33:04

Oh, he had said the number one job in America.

The appointed person is someone who doesn’t understand the people.

Also, he had some political comments.

Okay, in an interview and then he had said, some of the president’s comments are laughable and scary.

Okay.

1:33:20

Yeah, it was his opinion.

That was his opinion.

Exactly.

And then she was, he shouldn’t have an opinion because he plays basketball, right?

She responded on our shows.

Saying the comments were quote.

Barely intelligible.

Oh boy, there’s a and she said it’s always unwise to seek political advice from someone who gets paid a hundred million dollars a year to bounce a ball.

1:33:41

Keep the political comments to yourself.

Shut up and dribble.

Hmm.

I do love this Theory because, of course, a lot of people tell me on Twitter that stick to acting or whatever.

They think.

I do that somehow a certain occupation would preclude you from having an opinion.

1:33:56

I know in a democracy, which we’re all encouraged to have and those people are sharing their exactly.

So like, all right.

Yeah, you stick to Dermatology or whatever it is, you do.

Yeah.

Well just never have will never are any of this out and then we’ll go vote.

Privately, and then not will die a sad?

1:34:12

Lonely death.

Yes.

I think LeBron James should say, whatever he wants to.

I also hope he keeps dribbling that basketball.

He’s a hell of a player doesn’t have to shut up and do it.

But he’s, yeah, yeah, you should do all things exactly.

You said, if you look at people’s brains during an MRI, when they’re talking about politics, you see the area of their brain light up.

1:34:34

That’s connected to their identity.

Mmm.

And that is correct.

Oh, thank goodness.

Yeah, I was They have a lot of egg my face.

Yeah.

Yeah, they did a study at USC.

Oh, raining creativity Institute.

1:34:50

Proud.

Educators of OJ Simpson.

Oh good for them.

Yeah, you think he was taking the like psychology classes?

I don’t know.

Maybe.

Maybe maybe.

Yeah, I don’t think so.

But maybe maybe.

Yeah, there’s a racial undercurrent to that statement.

1:35:06

That’s not why I’m calling what ball calling me.

Don’t say that.

Nothing to do with it.

Most of the football players in my school were not taking those class.

They weren’t that.

Well, I did see a real real Sports not too long ago about a, an NFL lineman who is a mathematician and they ask him in the interview someone with your statistical awareness given the brain injury issue and how much you value your brain.

1:35:31

How do you continue to play?

And he basically said, you know, I’m aware of it, but I but then I got retired and he and not because he didn’t make a team.

He took that I guess that Heart interesting of a mathematician.

I’ll say this.

I time I ran into the football players and classes was in my dance. 101 class.

1:35:50

Oh, there are football.

Players really where they gigantic.

Oh, yeah.

Did you like the back row?

I sat in the front row so I couldn’t see them but they yeah, they occupied a lot of space.

They were very nice.

Uh-huh.

And do you you were you attracted to football players?

1:36:06

That’s not.

Is that you now?

Yes, I’m generally your type too, Macho to me.

Macho toxic masculinity, like Kristin show.

I’d love watching, big big Goliath, move around gracefully.

That would be great.

I would imagine, they’re pretty good at dancing.

You know, what amble it was a lecture.

1:36:23

It was not a movement class.

Oh my God was intro to dance.

Looking takes a classroom history or something.

Once I read about dancing.

I want to learn how to Foxtrot.

Yeah, I think people wanted an a yeah, okay.

1:36:41

It was sort of my whole bunch of spells, all Point.

Okay, so she couldn’t remember the year.

She interviewed actors from the show, little mosque on the Prairie.

Okay.

She thought it was 2008 knows 2011.

Hmm.

She did get in trouble.

1:36:57

She did.

Yeah, she got in trouble because she had said that there should be a Muslim version of The Cosby Show in the United States and then she got a lot of pushback for that.

Hmm, which seems strange because 2008 cheat our 2011, she did are currently in 2011 because it was too Cavalier.

1:37:16

Like Hollywood can’t like solve this problem.

Hollyweird.

Hollyweird.

Can’t sell this massive islamophobia problem.

Okay.

You said African-American men are twice as likely to die of prostate cancer?

Yeah, but then according to Harvard prostate knowledge, dot-org.

1:37:34

African-American men have the highest incidence of the disease.

There were roughly one point six times more likely to develop.

State cancer than white and two point six times more likely than Asian Americans to develop it.

But the point I was making, I only know this because I’m on the Prostate Cancer, Foundation.

1:37:51

I’m their spokesperson.

I do a lot of press for them.

I don’t even know that how much, how, what rate they contracted, but I know that their treatment isn’t is good in that.

They once they have it, they die at twice the rate.

Okay, you know, just to make that distinction clear, but now I’m nervous even saying that also might my think.

1:38:10

It’s a so Socioeconomic, right?

Yeah, for sure.

Okay.

No, there are diseases that do disproportionately affect African-Americans.

One of them being hypertension.

They have a way way, higher rate of hypertension.

Well, this does developmentally.

Wow.

Yes.

Yes.

1:38:25

Oh, both probably am both ends.

They’re both in their survival from it, and diagnosis of it.

Yeah, familial get your buns, checked, if you’re African-American.

Yeah, but someone get in there and run around a little bit.

Yeah, worth it.

And probably, Everyone everyone.

1:38:42

Yeah, that guy’s asian-americans.

I guess if you want to sounds like yours, that’s pretty low.

You have an opening in your schedule.

Sure.

Okay.

Familial polyposis.

1:38:57

I can never say that word.

Thank you Polly posis according to my research and I did a lot because I really believe me.

Yeah, I care about you and I love that story so much.

That’s not true.

It’s Not it can it can be inherited by either parent.

1:39:14

They can come through either lineage.

Well, fuck.

I need to get back down there then and get some because it’s been Well, again, I remember it was I was on that airplane ride with James Kimmel.

So it was, it was about 11 years ago.

I think I’m supposed to go.

I was supposed to go every five years or something.

1:39:30

So it maybe I should go back but that doctor really did tell me that, I know, I guess it’s tough evolved so quickly maybe with the time.

He told me.

It’s what?

Maybe.

Hmm.

It’s a two-thirds of all the cases are inherited inherited from a parent with the mutant APC Gene.

1:39:47

And the remaining one third of cases, just arises from a spontaneous Genie.

Just bad luck.

Yeah.

Yes.

The other 30%.

Yeah.

Well, I just got your lab results back.

It appears you.

Yeah, you have bad luck.

Yes.

Good news, though.

No tuberculosis.

Only whooping cough is a slight case of colon whooping cough.

1:40:10

Okay, so then you brought up because you were eating your nicotine lozenge that you love so much.

Love them got one in now.

Yeah, they smell really minty a nice.

Yeah, they’re not bad.

Yeah.

But you weren’t better than my habit of chewing.

Tobacco back in the day, that does not make your mouth smell.

1:40:27

Good.

This is better than that.

Yeah, because and you had mentioned that there are some advantages to nicotine in 2006 and Duke scientists.

Did some research on this and there’s a direct link between nicotine and an increase in the release of dopamine and serotonin.

Boom.

1:40:43

Separate study.

Okay.

We’re now switching study switching studies.

And how does going to support my Parkinson’s Alzheimer’s?

Claims well into the house in a study performed at Stanford heard of it.

Okay.

It’s a very challenged.

1:40:59

Yeah.

It’s a very lowly College.

Okay?

For losers and dumb people who couldn’t really get into any of the other colleges.

Okay.

Well, I’ll let him man.

Okay.

Feeder college for loser shift.

Pretty much.

Yeah.

They revealed some surprising results about nicotine’s effects on blood vessels for new diabetes treatment people as well for Brimley.

1:41:21

Would say diabetes.

Yeah, a lot of Southerners say that diabetis.

Yeah, he’d say no good.

If you’ve got no better scoot your blood sugar check regularly.

That’s what Wilford Brimley.

He was on a campaign to help us be aware of diabeetus.

1:41:39

Well, it’s because diabetes, you have poor circulation.

That’s what I lose limbs, right?

Exactly.

Sometimes you have to get, they get gangrene if to amputate their feet and stuff, such a bummer of a disease. / Vettes is cute.

As the name is diabetes.

It is a very tragic but good news.

1:41:57

It’s not over congratulations.

Am I saying it?

Weird tuberculosis?

Yeah.

I got it and I got some heat from last week’s the way I pronounce via.

Not only that was part of it that you don’t know.

1:42:13

Haha.

Okay.

Okay.

I just saw a lot of people on Twitter like phonetically spelling.

It out, didn’t help me at all.

By the way guys when you phonetically spell stuff out for me.

It’s not a huge help.

He said right now.

Vietnamese.

No.

Okay, still bad.

Alright.

1:42:29

Well look if you’re listening get on Twitter right now and spell it out, it use numbers.

You say it Vietnamese.

Your I can’t even hear what you’re doing different.

Yeah, isn’t that?

That’s what I hear.

That is interesting.

1:42:44

You’re saying Vietnamese.

Great sounds right.

Let me so far.

You’re posing the n and M 0, easy mistake.

Those letters are so simple.

They are similar noises.

So and yes, yes, blowers incidence of Alzheimer’s in smokers.

1:43:06

I didn’t say anything.

I am I parking.

Okay, but also a yes, she said that Ken Burns had a 20 hour documentary on.

Viet mom, yes.

Vietnam.

How about when people say Vietnam?

1:43:22

Yeah, I don’t sound suspicious because to me, the people who say that went there.

Yeah.

Well sane am?

Yeah, I never say no, that’s true.

But it was, it’s, that’s a 10 part 17 and a half hour, documentary series.

1:43:38

You watched it, right?

I watched like four of them and I loved it.

It’s such a bigger story than I I knew about.

No, just here and a half hours.

Yeah.

Yeah, the, the history leading up to it.

Ho Chi, Minh all that.

Stuff was a lot more.

1:43:59

Nuanced and complicated, and interesting.

And I was expecting cool.

I tried to watch it and I couldn’t find it.

It’s hard to find, I think PBS, maybe and I could be wrong.

But yeah, usually you go to the PBS app and watch stuff in that one.

They seem to want you to buy it or do something crazy.

1:44:15

So then I added it to the DVR and it picked it all up and now I’ve no space for anything else.

So I guess I have to watch it at this point just to get rid of it.

Clear up some space.

Yeah, we were talking about when automation takes over and eventually, we will have to have some Art of public stipend.

Oh, right, and she couldn’t remember what those cause you gotten way.

1:44:33

She thought it was Universal public income, but there’s a lot of names for it.

But the main one is a basic income.

Okay, so or basic income guarantee citizens income, unconditional basic income, Universal basic income, basic living stipend or Universal demo Grant and do nothing.

1:44:53

Get paper.

Yep, a new kind of welfare regime which all citizens receive a regular livable and unconditional sum of money.

Might be unavoidable in our future.

It might be.

Yeah.

Well, we’ll see.

You’ll find out if you oval is correct.

1:45:10

You’ve all evil.

It might be oval.

He’s Vietnamese, isn’t he?

Yeah, he does not have his rally.

No, that’s the good news.

Okay.

Many people living under the poverty line in Flint, Michigan.

1:45:28

You said 100,000 between 2009 and 2013 41.5% of Flint’s residents live below the poverty line.

There’s what 300,000 plenty ins.

I don’t know.

I will realize I think that is I’m reading it out.

1:45:44

Well, I don’t know.

I would have loved to have crunch those numbers.

You know, how much I would find out how off my math skills, when you give me like a percentage?

And then I have the total and then I can crunch that.

That number on and do a live.

Yeah, because if it was 41% in there were 300,000 people, that’s 120,000 people give or take like 1,000 people.

1:46:05

Okay, 2016’s number, I have here, the population of Flint Michigan is 97,000 386.

So you don’t think there’s 100,000 people below the poverty line.

I’m going to say now.

Well, that’s really easy now.

So then we can just say 40,000 because it was almost 100,000 people and it’s a 41% We’ll just say 40,000.

1:46:26

Okay.

Okay, great.

And that’s compared to 16.8% in the rest of the states.

Really hot super duper high.

So you reference a Sam Harris, live show that we went to you were talking about getting sort of dragged into A New Perspective and that’s good.

1:46:44

Now was Steven pinker’s I was Steven pinker’s talk.

Yeah, but I thought this was just interesting.

This is no fact-check really, but I thought it was interesting because the In that came up, it was during the Q&A portion at the end.

Those can be brutal.

1:47:00

Uh-huh.

Yeah, people really using that platform for their 15 minutes.

Yeah, but this guy had a really good question.

He said when was the last time you changed your mind about something and Sam did say death penalty.

I thought well, that’s interesting because that’s also one of mine that I’ve changed my opinion on, right, that tort reform, but most people probably can’t answer that but it’s Very good thing to keep in your brain circulating.

1:47:28

It’s a good goal to have.

Basically you should be able to name something that you are.

You’ve discovered.

You were wrong about.

Yeah.

Your malleable enough to open minded enough.

Yeah, based on the you have one.

Well, I was thinking well death penalty is one for me too.

1:47:46

Okay, but also probably abortion.

I’m sure it’s some point.

Okay.

Pro-life.

Yes.

Like a young person though, so that It’s harder.

It’s how I’ve only been an adult for a couple years.

Let’s talk about this because we Chris and I had a juicy conversation.

The other night.

1:48:03

This is real dangerous.

But let’s do it.

The pro-life pro-choice debate in the country to me is about the the least bridgeable topic we have there’s really no compromise, which is really disconcerting the hottest button for happy.

1:48:23

It is.

And it just what’s really true.

I mean about it is you know, neither side can be happy with the compromise, you know, and that’s just again, I have a certain position on it, but it’s not to say that.

I don’t feel for the people who are pro-life or want them to be happy as well.

1:48:40

I found myself saying this.

So I think it’s unrealistic to imagine that young teenage people with tons of new chemicals in their brains and hormones are going to be thinking correctly.

It may Making great, just choices all the time.

1:48:56

I just think that’s a very unrealistic expectation.

But I have to say, knowing that there’s no solution, right?

There’s no compromise that both sides are going to be happy with.

I did think.

God.

Is there any movement on my side?

Is there, is there anything that I could concede on the pro-choice side?

1:49:14

And what I thought was, This morning after pill.

What’s it called?

Plan B.

Yep.

Now, I think it’s too much to expect young people to be.

Always making the right decisions while drunk at a party in 15.

1:49:30

I don’t know that.

I think it’s too much to expect them to go get the Plan B pill, the next day.

I don’t know.

That that’s an expectation that we can’t have of young people and of course, it would require a huge Evolution and dispensing that medicine.

It would have to be available at school.

1:49:46

Yep, no-questions-asked.

Yep, that might be really hard.

Parents might object to that.

But I have to say just in looking for some solution that neither side is going to be happy with it.

Did occur to me.

I don’t even know that I support it or don’t, but it did occur to me.

1:50:03

Oh my god, that actually could be a movement in that direction.

Abortion has been rendered obsolete.

A little bit because of that pill.

I mean that that is the that is the, the more gruesome of the options.

Is at your disposal.

If you become pregnant, you don’t want to carry the baby to term.

1:50:21

It’s much easier.

And probably healthier to take that pill the next day.

Yeah, I think the problem is you do have to take it.

I don’t know enough about the Plan B pill to speak knowledgeably on.

It might be a sponsor at some point O, so let’s be careful.

1:50:37

No, I have nothing bad to say about it.

Other than you have to take it in a time frame.

Okay, but again, and again.

You’re right.

I don’t know the side effects of the pill.

So I don’t know if it’s bad to take it all the time.

But yes kids won’t realize they’re pregnant quite often till later.

1:50:56

Yeah, the game.

But is it an unrealistic expectation?

Just to go like hey, man, you have sex in high school.

You got to take that thing the next day.

Yeah.

I don’t, I don’t know.

I don’t know if there are lasting effects from taking it.

I don’t know how often you can take it.

If there are no side effects or no problems.

1:51:12

Sure.

Everyone should be taking it every morning, I guess, with their breath or not.

If they Didn’t have sex the night before, but yeah, but kids not not just kids, adults, young adults, who aren’t ready to have children people.

In general had sex and it was unprotected.

1:51:28

They should take that pill the next and it would have to be more than just schools and your doctor’s office.

It would have to be, you should.

You should be able to walk into any doctor 7-Eleven Clinic.

Anywhere.

Yes.

And get it for free.

1:51:43

Yeah, that would be a lot cheaper before you.

Oh, that’s a welfare thing.

It would be a lot cheaper, a lot of these.

No, I know you wouldn’t, but so you’re single say, oh, we don’t have to pay for people’s birth control, right?

The issue with people saying that you don’t have to pay for people’s birth control albeit.

1:52:01

It’s a fine statement in and of itself.

It does deny the reality of our medical system, which is we don’t deny people care.

So, that statement does make sense and would hold up.

If we had a country that denied people medical care.

So if you could go to Emergency room and they say, get the fuck out of here.

1:52:17

You don’t have insurance then.

Yes, that statement makes sense.

But acknowledging that we don’t deny care and that we will end up paying for it.

At some point, down the line.

Then you have to get a little pragmatic about what the costs of treating things in, an emergency room versus treating things preemptively.

1:52:35

Yeah, I think a lot of people who are pro-life believe at the moment of conception.

That is a human.

Uh-huh.

And so, The Plan, B pill is still for them would not be an option.

That’s still it’s the same effect.

1:52:52

Okay, so maybe this isn’t a compromise, don’t know if it is.

I wish there was a compromise.

I think, I’ll tell you why.

The reason that it’s troubling to me that this divide exists is because if I were pro-life, that would be the most important topic for me.

1:53:10

That would be the most important thing to vote for my work for all like.

Yeah, and so, I I would then kind of be forced to choose whatever candidate was pro-life.

I’d have to prioritize that over all other issues which would be very fair.

1:53:25

And so, I don’t what I don’t like is that it limits people’s voting to that one issue, but I understand it, and I’m sympathetic to it.

I don’t agree with it.

So I would like to figure out a way where we can make that nine.

A single-issue voting thing.

1:53:42

Here is my problem.

Not, I can I can Fully understand the mentality of being pro-life.

I very much understand that.

But what I don’t understand is in the same party in the same candidate.

1:53:58

You are voting for their, they’re pro-life and they’re cut Social programming, cut welfare, cut all of the things are that are going to help that baby that one sort of forced to be born to live a good happy successful.

1:54:16

To Mystic life.

Yeah, it’s very it seems contradictory very contradictory.

And that’s my own prob feel this way.

But I understand it.

I do understand it.

It doesn’t.

It’s not that I can’t find the logic in the argument.

I can.

1:54:31

I just disagree with it.

They’re not guaranteeing.

You anything.

By being born in the US.

You’re not guaranteed health care.

You’re not guaranteed food.

You’re not guaranteed anything, you are.

Ian teed a life.

1:54:48

That’s what they’d say.

You have a right to your life.

You don’t have a right to any Services.

After that point again, I don’t agree with that.

But that that’s a sound argument is that you are guaranteed to life your constitutionally guaranteed, your life.

1:55:05

You’re not constitutionally guaranteed food medicine, anything beyond that point?

Okay.

Yeah, so I it’s not a logical.

I just don’t agree with it.

It is a logical.

When you start thinking about what is the purpose of life to just have a body in existence that if that’s living, then I guess that’s fine.

1:55:30

But that doesn’t but that person might then say yes, they do deserve all that stuff, but they should be finding that through the church or through an organization.

It’s not the government’s role to be providing that stuff.

So maybe they might even go.

I do agree.

1:55:46

Be with you, they should have an education.

They should have food and, and, and medical.

But that’s something that the church has to provide or some philanthropic organization.

It’s not the US government’s role again.

I don’t agree with that, but that I can see.

1:56:03

I don’t think it it makes that person a psychopath.

Well, well young a 16 year old girl who doesn’t know she’s pregnant and is drinking and is doing whatever. 16 year old girls do.

And this, well, let’s go to the worst example because it’s easier to defend.

1:56:20

Let’s say the six-year-old raped which happens all the time.

Right, but that’s that’s not really my point.

Okay, that’s okay.

If this child is not taking care of the baby in an in the womb and the baby is not entitled to a life of, you know, potentially fetal.

1:56:44

Alcohol syndrome or disabilities, or these things.

The babies.

Now that person is now forced into that.

The baby is now going to have medical issues and that party.

1:57:00

Generally speaking is not for adding more money into the Healthcare System.

Any of these things that’s going to help that person survive actual life, right?

I bet that those people would say, While that 16 year olds pregnant, they don’t have the right to party but they may not know their 16 16 year olds are dumb.

1:57:27

Right, but I think that the, the person that was pro-life would say you’re ignoring the solution, which is.

Yes.

I’m asking that person for nine months of their life to give up their rights because they’re growing another human being, right.

1:57:44

So once that’s alerted that their prey Yes, they have to be supervisor.

They have to pee into a cup or they have to be monitored or they have to go someplace that’s funded by the government so that they can healthily grow the baby in their belly.

You know, they would probably say, yeah, it blows for the sixteen-year-old.

1:58:02

It’s going to be nine months of their life and that sucks, but that’s just you’re going to have to, you know, you got pregnant and now you’re going to sorry, nine months of your life.

You’re going to have to grow this thing, healthy.

And then you can do whatever you want after you give birth.

I imagine that’s what they would say.

Again, I don’t agree.

1:58:18

I don’t know if that’s a lot of money to do that properly and I bet they’d be fine with spending that money to get babies out.

Healthy know.

There’s they are not for adding more funding into the Health Care system of any and insurance know, even for nine-month Windows.

1:58:34

Well, yeah, that’s the whole Jimmy.

That’s Jimmy Kimmel’s whole thing right now with the with the children the health care act and all that stuff.

Yeah.

Anyway, I’m Rob has to go.

Oh shit.

Okay, so we’re all done with the fact check.

Obviously, there was less than normal because Katie is so knowledgeable.

1:58:52

She’s pretty.

She is right.

She didn’t fuck up at all and she was smart enough on the fly.

If she, she was questionable.

She would check before she spoke, which is really admirable.

Yep.

Thank you for your Healthy.

Respectful debate, Monica.

1:59:07

I always appreciate you and I love everyone.