0:00

Hello, welcome to the armchair expert.

I’m Dax Shepard.

I’m joined by the ever talented and beautiful.

Monika.

Badman.

Hello, an intro.

I’ve got more coming your way.

Mmm.

Yeah.

I’ve just started drafting them in my head.

Oh boy.

0:15

Yeah.

Wait, I don’t think I’ll run out of adjectives too soon.

Either.

Okay.

Yeah, before we get into this week’s episode.

There was some blowback and I’m happy.

There was blowback me to about the lack of a fact check.

On this final McHale and the beefy Joel mikel’s episode.

0:36

The reason for that was my beautiful lovely stepfather of twenty.

Seven, eight years.

David Barton had been battling prostate cancer and I had to go to Oregon for a week and he has since passed and I was there with my family and it was both a hard week.

1:00

And a beautiful week because my family so fantastic because of that.

I dropped the ball guys.

I was unable to get the fact check in the right spot at the right time.

I’m not going to let you do that.

1:15

And not gonna let you take credit for this going poorly.

I think so.

No, because we would have gotten together much earlier to record those spots and would have discovered this and we would have figured it out and or recorded a new one.

You’re right.

It probably.

Prevented us from being able to fix the problem.

1:33

But you didn’t cause the price, it had nothing to do with well because we had recorded the fact we had recorded it exists in The Ether.

Yeah, but it’s lost.

It is and one day we’ll find it and we’re going to post it.

Yeah, or we record it because really are.

1:50

I have all the note.

We just love doing that fact-check guys.

It’s so much fun.

So that is the explanation that we owed all of you and it you know, some of it’s my fault Cory.

Monica, it’s not all my fault.

I’ll although I do proceed through life thinking, everything’s my fault, not true.

2:08

But with all that said, we have an amazing guest today.

He’s a Titan in the podcast world.

The Titan.

I would say.

Yeah, he’s the Howard Stern of podcasts.

He really started the whole Revolution.

I mean, who else is interviewed the damn president jealous jealous, so you probably already know who that is with those Clues.

2:29

That’s another thing we’re going to start doing is giving you lots of droppings.

So bread crumbs to find your way.

So Marc, Maron is our, is our esteemed guests.

And I think you’ll get a bang out of what it took to get him here.

And what he, and I went through emotionally to make this happen and I hope you enjoy it as much as we enjoyed talking to Marc Maron host of WTF podcast.

2:57

He’s not sure that we are in the ground zero of a construction project, motivated by my wife.

3:22

Oh, and by the way, like when I when I texted you, I never can.

People what I texted you.

This is one of those things that just completely backfired.

I’ve had hundreds of people on my show, huh?

Yeah, I never assumed familiarity, uh-huh.

Enough to even text people for anything.

3:38

But like, I went to the SAG Awards and, you know, Kristin hosted and he made a joke about me and I realize like, yeah, she’s never been on the show.

Why is that?

I’ve had acts on a couple times.

Yeah.

I think I’m me and Daxter good enough.

Yeah, shoot him a text.

Absolutely.

Sure.

I shoot you texting, you like.

Oh, well, isn’t this a little awkward of that you can?

3:56

Wheatley blew me off and I’m like, what the fuck happened?

Yeah, let’s unpack this whole thing because you should first know that my most hated fucking thing in life is putting people out to a fault, right?

I will not ask for help.

This is a big problem of mine, right?

Prevented me from getting sober for a long time.

4:13

Right?

Just can’t receive help right?

Yeah.

So for me to ask you to do the podcast, I know that you probably get asking non-stop.

I also know that you’re a fucking lead of a TV show.

I know you have your own podcast.

So for me to send you.

Initial email saying, I would love for you to do my podcast or delete on TV show.

4:30

But no way a waiver will just say for, okay, those who aren’t listening.

It’s the Marc Maron presents glow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I’m already feeling vulnerable.

Sending you that, right, right.

Yeah, so, then you don’t respond right?

And I never, I never Veer into like, resentment at you.

4:48

I just go of course, he’s very busy and he didn’t but then yes, a few nights ago, you text me.

Hey, I’d love to have your wife on the podcast.

You I think that could happen and then I’m not totally proud of what I said to you.

But it also I admit it could have been much worse.

5:05

Like I genuinely like you and I think we have a bond because we’re sober.

Right?

So I gotta I gotta act, you know, semi professionally.

So I say this is interesting that you would ask me to get my wife on your show and you ignored my request.

So it was, it was pretty bratty.

5:20

It was definitely teed up for you to be a fucking asshole.

Like I was half expecting you to Fire back.

Like we know what, fuck you, blah, blah, blah.

And instead he blew my fucking mind of to the point where I screen captured it and send it to Monica and said, can you believe how this human being operates?

5:39

It’s totally impressive.

Avoiding you immediately go.

Holy shit.

I’m so sorry.

I get really busy.

I probably forgot.

You sent that to me and now I’m an asshole and I’m sorry.

Is there a way to make this right leg straight into solution?

You didn’t get defensive when it was it was ripe for getting defensive.

5:58

Why didn’t know where he was at either?

Like, I’m like, like when I sent that one and like, you know, even though it’s like five minutes between and I’m like, he’s just losing it this guy.

I’m just saying that there was about a 95% chance that that entire exchange would go really wrong.

6:14

Right?

And I give you the credit for it, staying very peaceful and nice.

Well, I’ve been acknowledging that part of myself recently.

Like I no longer, I answer emails in my head in the Or I go I’ll get back to that.

They just go away.

Right?

6:30

Of course.

It happens a lot even with texts.

Like I’ll get a text and I’ll be like, oh, yeah, okay, and I won’t even text back and I miss appointments there.

Like I’m on my way somewhere and they’re like, are you coming?

And I’m like, oh, I didn’t send that text.

I just thought like, but it was like, I’ve been feeling bad about doing that because you after a certain point.

6:51

You, you think you’re going to revisit something.

It’s just you don’t sure.

And you forget more shit, gets heaped on the pile, right?

You don’t get to and I felt bad because like I like you and you know, and then there was other issues.

Like I didn’t know like, you know what, the deal was with you and her and oh my God Christ.

7:09

And but the whole, the whole point about it was, like, I never do that.

Not even ask my producer Mike.

I think I’m just going to, you know, text area, see if we could do it at least find out.

There’s interest.

That was like, yeah, I checked through Someone else you’ve I should text, you know, somebody’s been on the Shelf.

7:25

So some people were my friends.

But you know, I don’t know you that way.

Don’t you think it has something to do with the sobriety Bond?

Because I feel like it’s us on a oh, yeah.

Definitely.

You different level you.

Would you would you would, you would think we would behave so rudely, but I don’t, but I don’t know you that well either, like, I don’t know, each other.

7:42

Look, I know a lot of sober people that are fucking out of their minds.

I know if he was, well, you know, and have worked with me before I was like, wow, man, 20 years of sobriety in years.

I laugh.

All right, whales, hold it everyone around you?

That’s crazy.

Then you gotta assume.

They must have been much much worse.

Maybe, maybe.

I mean people sometimes it get dry and they, you know, and they actually are worse than when they were drinking.

8:02

But I knew eventually hopefully that some amends would happen, but it could have been months.

I mean I you don’t, you know, you might not know.

You might have acted soberly eventually.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, and I might have eventually, well, this is going to deter you from ever texting anyone.

8:21

We are again asking for a favor.

I really hope it doesn’t.

No.

No, it doesn’t cause it wasn’t even a favor was sort of like, hey, is she laying right there?

Because?

Yeah, weird.

That kind of she was.

Yeah, so you were right to assume that because we both sleep in the marital bed.

But yeah, plan your like this fucking guy.

Yeah.

Well again, I’m giving myself like a see on the whole thing because there was another version of the text.

8:43

That was much more aggressive.

Did you ask her where you check?

No?

No.

No.

I know.

I know.

I know when I don’t want her input, right?

Like, it would have been.

Been wise to let her in on it all because she always pulls me back about 30 percent.

But all in all there was a much meaner text response.

8:59

I had composed in my head and then there was a much nicer one, right compose, and I kind of just went down the middle.

And then again, you were a man.

She to I took the bait to, you know, like he was a middle up to you.

Yeah, you want to make this good or you want to make this worse because we can go either act.

Yeah, and we’re both up for that too.

9:16

I assume.

Right.

We’re we wouldn’t mind grenading.

I wasn’t I wasn’t, you know, because I Deferring to you because I felt inappropriate to begin with.

So, I was more upset that I let that I let that slip through the cracks had.

I not emailed you a month before, it wouldn’t bother me at all.

9:31

But that’s not to say that it wouldn’t have bothered me in the past just like anything else.

I’m keeping separate.

I’m up and down on whether I’m annoyed by that or we still used by that or or don’t care.

That was the other thing that I was realizing, you know, because I think the entire evening of the when I was actually texting I was driving.

9:51

With my guy who was on my Show comedian, you know, Dave Anthony.

I don’t know if you know, I don’t know if funny guy and the I was doing spots at The Comedy Store, you know, when this was like in progress.

Okay, and like, you know, I think when I got the first text from you, we were driving and I’m like, I gotta pull over and deal with this.

10:08

Oh my God, it was so Pull over in text.

I want to make sure I got it.

10:23

Right.

Right, right.

And there was I think a weird there at one point.

There was a big gap in the, in the correspondence.

Yeah, wait till the next day.

No.

No, it was that night.

What had happened was I think you sent me a text, but we had gone to dinner and we were watching the final episode of peaky blinders.

10:39

So I was just, I didn’t look at my phone for about three hours.

So it probably looked like I was icing you out on that.

Yeah, first sure.

Wow.

Yeah, so you may be of already at filled in a bunch of stuff.

Oh, yeah, a lot of stuff.

Okay, you know where that is.

Added in my head.

Fuck that guy.

You know what?

I mean?

It’s like fucking what do I give a shit?

10:56

You know, I fucked up.

So, whatever it’s going to make me pay for it.

I’m not.

Yeah, because you’re right.

In fact, if I had to pick my like what outcome the the last on my list would be you just fucking ignore me.

That would send me in to do that to you, right in?

Or would I do it to you?

I just was in a unique, not even about you.

11:13

He didn’t remember.

And then when I looked it up, I was like, you know, it was just a one sentence and I had no recollection of it when I read it.

I realized I had read it before and maybe I said like I get back to him and then just want to win.

Yeah, so I’m glad it wasn’t months ago.

11:29

No, it wasn’t.

It wasn’t.

In fact, I sent three like Monica was like you just got a fucking man up and ask your friend.

I did, I did, when I started my night.

I asked people’s friends of friends, you know, and a lot of the people that I was dealing with were comics and they were not big shots in any way like when I got Conan on, that was a big deal.

11:48

My gonna do that.

Did you feel bad asking?

You.

Well know, I felt bad in the sense that like, like I felt like for that whole first year or so that most people are like marks in trouble.

He’s he’s doing this project because I don’t even know what a podcast.

12:05

Well, that’s what I was gonna say is I kind of compare this to when I was on Punk’d versus when other people were on Punk.

So when I was unplugged the show had never aired.

So I would, you know, put these people in a situation where they were usually scared.

Yeah, but and at the end of it I go, you know just Looking you got punked.

12:22

Oh by the way Punk’s a show that’ll are in about six months on MTV years, the premise like there was no it was, it was, it was bad news followed by a long explanation that made no sense to them.

Whereas at least the people after me, got to see.

You got punked and they were relieved.

Right?

Right.

So similarly, you’re doing a podcast in 2009.

12:38

No one even knows.

What the fuck that is.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I really felt that like, but but see the benefit of that is I was pretty humbled and and sort of like, you know, I had no choice.

So it wasn’t You know, like I had to make this work and I had to suck it up.

12:54

Uh-huh.

And just eat my pride because there was not much going on for me, you know, like this was it.

But am I right in that you were on air America, right?

You had a few different shows on air America and then right but that did that’s not very glorious, you know, like in its first Incarnation.

I was there at the beginning and I never done radio before and I was out here.

13:12

I got married.

I got the job.

Nothing was going on out here.

I’d gone through a deal with a couple of scripts with somebody.

So I went back to I had an I’m in New York and I started doing radio for the first time in my life.

It’s 6:00 in the morning, liberal talk radio and I was, you know, reactionary person.

13:29

I’m not a real political thinker.

So I, you know, I showed up at are America with, like, a democracy For Dummies book, you know, like, yeah, like, I needed to learn but I was the funny guy was supposed to be the funny.

Yes, but then I laughter you are doing sketches and stuff a lot.

13:45

We did a lot of stuff with a lot of riders.

It was great comedy, but eventually I became like the driver of the show.

So like I was the guy.

Uh-huh, and I had a lot of very smart people around me to inform me, but I had to learn how to read the news.

Keep up with the narrative.

Yeah, how the Senate works.

Why should I like this guy?

14:01

Matt?

This guy?

What did this guy do like, there are dudes at do that all day long.

So we were you pressured to join?

Where you free to have your own take on it or really she was better off.

Yeah.

I was better off.

I have my own take on it.

But what I found is time went on though that if you’re doing that stuff every day, that it will become sort of unavoidable that you are carrying water for somebody.

14:21

In the sense that, you know, if you are progressive, there’s the umbrella to that this what you believe.

Yeah, if your way left, you know, this is what you believe if you’re Centrist Democrat is what like you trim things off, you know, you got the way laughter who is sort of?

Like there’s no other way than to, you know, be completely socialist and stop using Machinery.

14:39

Yeah, you know, so like, yes, they kind of pull back from there.

But but no, but you do find that you’re servicing a narrative.

So in that sort of started to bum me out, but I was there for a year and a half or Year and 6 months then the CEO new guy came in and cut us out your 20 years sober next year.

14:56

Yeah, assume now, you don’t fuck up.

Isn’t it?

19?

Well in August?

It’s 19.

And then next year, will be 12.

Right, right.

This August 9th.

I mean where we’re at.

We’re really ahead of ourselves and you’re not supposed to do that.

But no, but like I say, that’s a fuckload.

It I’m, it is no, I was Sober Sober.

15:11

Sober, Sober and married, and as I was getting up at 2:30, 3:00 in the morning because I had to go get up to speed on the news.

I had to get to the office by like three or so, because we were Crunch a lot of shit.

This is the opposite schedule of a stand, right?

I mean, I would drink like it like two large Dunkin Donuts coffee.

15:28

Oh, yeah, my tea bags of Eminem So I was all right.

Yeah, but ladies feel around noon in those days.

No, you’ve you’re fucked.

I mean, you know because yeah because you do the show 629 and by 10, I’m heading home and you just like doing basic shit like going shopping.

Then you basically feel like you have the flu all the time.

15:45

You’re like, you know, you got you like and when are you going to bed, 5 p.m.?

No, I would.

If I didn’t get to bed by.

By 8:30 or so, I’d Panic.

Yes.

Hmm.

I hate that.

And then I do comedy on weekends.

So I was always all fucked up and then like I would get up in the morning like you were really good at a way to live with it that period.

16:01

No one was with him with me.

I was that - all right, Mary.

I was she was out here at the new house and I was ruining our marriage from across the country, calling her up.

When I got to work in three in the morning, my time.

Midnight here.

Like where the fuck were you?

What’s going on?

Oh, yeah, so that wasn’t, this is also That fighting how one it’s all, ain’t over long-distance relationship.

16:24

Now, did I real them on their whereabouts at Blue in it?

Yeah, but anyways, so the new guy comes in Goldberg and he runs me out.

He could it was right after stirring it with terrestrial.

But so we get fired, that’s what happened, a whole gang.

Oddly.

I don’t like giving Danny Goldberg any credit at all because he’s a might he he really fucked me.

16:44

And I don’t mind saying, yeah, it’s a resentment that might not go away.

Sure.

That I’m like, yeah, I agree.

I agree.

He did give Rachel Maddow the prime morning spot.

Yeah, Marc Riley.

My partner.

Do that.

So she came from.

Is there a Mary?

Yeah, she was hired as a news reader.

17:01

Oh, at are America and then became the Third on a show.

And then when I was fired, she got her own to our chunk of the morning and she was great.

I mean, she’s still great.

And he’s, that’s why I have cables to watch her, right.

But, but so, I got pushed out.

17:18

I came back here.

Continue to The marriage I’m going badly, but here’s here, was the fucked-up thing.

There was a faction within our America that wanted to keep me around.

Mmm.

Yeah, there was fighting factions.

So they come out here and set me up with my own show on Katie LK, but it’s a 10:00 at night show and it’s got to go live and the station manager.

17:41

There hates me.

Put me on in Siberia at 10:00 live show that wood was contractually obligated to the women’s basketball.

Uh-huh.

And yet, I’m being well, whatever.

The team is here.

Oh, yeah, they were them.

Then.

There was the Clippers to write.

17:58

Is that the women’s kabaddi?

No.

No, the Clippers is the mail.

We have the, the Clippers in the Lakers in the men’s and there.

I can’t remember the ELA.

Either way.

It was like, you know, if that game ran long, we were sitting there waiting.

Yes.

Now what seems unfair, it seems hard for me to imagine knowing your personality a bit is that you basically were fired and rehired by that organization.

18:21

Four times, right fired.

And then like and then we that I got fired and they put me on the evening show.

Yeah, and then it was a third time.

I think it was only three times and you were able and all those times ago like because I have to imagine your initial responses.

Fuck you, you fired me but then you were able to talk yourself off that.

18:39

Like I knew the old Rich guys, but now that thing was like, it gone through so much garbage and after I left, but now there’s a new rich guy.

He’s going to bring it back and I’m like, the last thing I really want to do is get back on is work for them at all.

All right, but Carl’s ideas.

We do a streaming video step show.

18:54

That’s the thing now.

Streaming video be like The Daily Show.

Yeah, and I’m like, you know, I’m barely functioning.

My wife left me.

You know, I’m emotionally incapacitated.

Comedic Ali.

I’m yeah, I’m just like onstage you yelling and crying.

Uh-huh.

And I didn’t think I was capable of doing anything, but I needed the money to stay her.

19:13

Keep your house to stop her.

Oh because you needed a lawyer.

No, I have lawyer.

But yeah, but I was the one with the money and her lawyer was Me for nothing.

Yes, just out of spite.

Sure.

Because she thought she deserved the house and it was in my name.

And yeah, whatever the that whole thing.

It’s weird.

19:29

When we start talking about how quickly those feelings kind of, yeah, right, right.

Yeah.

And just ya Cheatin Heart rate changes, he hates me and she I just want to be done with it.

I don’t need to talk about her anymore.

But but the deal was are America.

There’s a new rich guy that I got a guys going to sponsor.

19:45

Me says come out.

Will do streaming video.

It’ll be funny like a Daily Show on the computer and I’m like, I’m gonna need Need this amount of money up front, so I can pay her to stop this shit.

Yeah, and then I need this amount of money to do the job and they did it, their all still up there, breakroom live.

We decided this guy had this idea.

20:01

We build the studio would be in the studio.

We were like, no need to be in the break room.

So we’re literally in the break room and are America, but I like coming to get love luncheons.

Yeah.

Yeah, and they’re paying me like hundreds of thousands of dollars were in the break room.

Yeah, and we knew the days were numbered.

Yeah, you know it, you know it just but do you think because there was a Element to that.

20:22

Yeah, that’s why you were comfortable doing the podcast.

Is that you saw that is like no one watched the, we were way ahead of the curve on streaming video.

No one gave a shit.

YouTube wasn’t what it was.

We would stream it live and we get like, you know, if we had eight hundred fifteen thousand viewers, we were like we’re killing right?

20:43

No one gave a shit.

I wasn’t watching a thing on the internet in 2009 course not no that’s those two thousand seven.

Oh two thousand years.

Thousand eight.

Yeah.

No way.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

If you dare.

So what happened really was that once they finish that, once they said, we ain’t got no money.

21:09

It was, it was a, it was a relief.

Brendan McDonald who is my business partner and producer of WTF was one of the young producers.

Uh-huh.

I’m the original air America.

He’s been with me that long, really since 2004 that guy.

Yeah, like, all the way through like, I won’t do anything without that guy.

21:27

Right?

Right.

He’s a genius.

I have people like that in my life.

Monica being one of them.

Nice.

Yeah.

Make you more political doing that or less or know?

What?

Ultimately what really transcended for me.

And what happened on the original are America’s when I talked about my life, my cat’s, my weird struggles.

21:46

Those were the the segments that resonated that people were like writing in saying, like that was great story.

So like I started to realize as doing the morning show that this was a good format for me that like, you know, not Everybody can translate into this, anyone can talk on a mic.

22:04

But what makes people listen, who knows what that is?

Yeah, but if I lock in, I can do that.

Yes.

So so that was a gift.

That was something I got from Air America talent that I didn’t realize I had.

And that I really liked.

And once you learn how to handle a mic on your own, just sitting by yourself.

22:22

That’s a very Transcendent thing.

It’s like finally getting the third ball up in the air when you tried learning how to juggle, you know, you like I can do this.

Yes, your Preambles on your podcasts.

I feel like are like doing stand-up with no audience and not necessarily funny.

22:39

You just have to have this tremendous conviction that what you’re saying?

Will someone will find valuable.

Also, you just have to be in it.

That’s the weird thing because I don’t outline, really do we do?

Yeah, you have to like you have to be able to sit by yourself and talk to them, right?

Yeah, you know like is that’s the weirdest thing.

22:56

I was terrified of that.

Like if I had a ninja technique, do you basically just let us hear the other voice in your head?

And do you have a conversation with yourself?

Is that how you would describe it?

I’ll I just sort of start on the topic and hopefully it goes somewhere like it’s more of an improvisational thing like where you’re hoping something will click.

23:11

It looks like thinking out loud more than having a conversation.

You look viscerally.

When you’re like, oh, I’m in a sweet spot right now.

Sure.

Yeah, definitely.

Now only I think I actually will say that or laugh at myself.

Do you get a?

No, is it annoying at all?

23:26

That.

There are so many podcasts now?

No, because Such a theory like there was a time like that away teams.

Yeah, well like to get back to what happened with.

So I got fired.

I’ll get you where you want to go.

I got fired, I get fired.

23:42

So then we were there.

I was in New York, you might divorce was pretty much over and, you know, they didn’t kick us out of the building.

So, you know, I said to Brendan I said, look, you know, there are these guys doing these things.

Can we figure it out?

You know?

Yeah.

They was who had you heard and heard anybody.

23:59

I just knew they were doing a new a new Corolla.

Yeah.

Did it.

But he came from radio.

So, that seemed like, but there were guys that were doing specifically podcast Kevin Smith, Jimmy Pardo, Jimmy Dore.

Like, not many the guy, but they were, guys, I kind of knew there were guys in my game, you know, there were a lot of podcasts around really quick.

24:15

I just love these.

I’ll get you where you want.

Let’s walk down and fuck all the Sheep.

We don’t need to run down and fuck one.

No, but okay.

24:32

So so Brendan figured it out, an Apple at that time was like wanting people with some profile or some ability because ultimately then maybe even now apples main reason to have podcast was to for their equipment.

They weren’t they weren’t providing a server.

24:49

It was just a portal.

So anything that would make people use iPods more.

That was what it was for.

It was really about the equipment.

Right?

Right, you know, it was really like, you know, they couldn’t sell you something.

Thing that there was nothing to do on it.

That’s right.

Yeah, I’m usually goes video game Council.

25:05

I don’t think they knew what was gonna happen with podcast, you know, but but certainly when we started up, you know, I didn’t I was very anti, you know, social media.

I didn’t like Facebook.

I still don’t.

Yeah.

Twitter was sort of nascent and now I was like, all right, I’ll get on, you know, and but like I knew enough to know that in order to get people to listen I had to call on my friends.

25:27

Uh-huh.

Who people liked, you know, they didn’t really know me.

I think a lot it like I made a commitment to not do politics in the podcast, generally at all.

I remember being very excited when we had 1500 downloads.

Aha.

Yeah, that first.

But at first 12 or so shows you can hear, we didn’t know what it was WTF.

25:45

Was this blanket idea that we were doing radio style segments.

The interviews were shorter.

I would have two interviews a day.

Maybe a phone interview.

I had a guy in there.

Sometimes Matthew to talk about movies.

So we’re trying to feel out what we wanted to show to be.

26:00

Yes, and I said I tried to set up a studio.

I had these mics on those riddles, you know tabletop stands.

Yeah, right.

I’d have people and it was in my garage was not set up as a studio.

There was a table and there were still shitting it like garage shit.

But like, it was just my garbage and I had a Macbook.

26:17

I didn’t, you know, I didn’t have a mixer.

I don’t think, like, I would do a longer interview longer monologue.

And then, there was a third segment.

That was usually we played as sort of a cow off my desk, fake guesting.

No, that was real or not.

Try get improv actors, right?

Yo, Matt Walsh Jerry, minor.

26:35

There’s a guy named David Waterman that used to do them.

Paul shears wife June.

Yeah.

She was with what did one with Matt?

They were great, and I love doing them because people did not know, right?

Like if it was real or not, you know, eventually just evolves away from that third act and it was just became conversations because I was having these conversations with people.

26:58

I knew, you know, apologizing, trying to integrate myself back into the community because I’m newly, you know, I’m free of the divorce.

I’m strapped.

My comedy career is nowhere.

You know, my nothing is anywhere.

So the podcasts all I have really I’m doing stand-up but I had no, I couldn’t sell tickets or nothing, right?

27:16

I always had some amount of people respecting me and I could get work.

We’re gonna ask you though really quick.

What were you basing?

Were you getting any kind of metrics on why the third Act was the one to dump?

Are you?

Just gone from your what you felt was working.

But you and you have no data to tell you, you know it, because I’m downloads.

27:35

No.

No, we didn’t know, I just it just became a defeatist tell, it came tricky to book.

Basically you making it available to be pure being pitched by improv people, like, you know, like what do you got?

You got anything, you’re calling up these improv improvised saying you got anything you want to do on the radio?

27:51

The guy, David water mean.

I don’t know.

He would do like these characters that were there was like two or three of them on the early shows that it’s just nuts.

Like he played a guy who smoked that Salvia stuff.

Um, we is that what?

It’s called.

Salvia sativa knows Stevia.

No.

28:06

No, it was just a window or something.

We did that on the air, but it wasn’t real right, you know, but people be like that real and we and he did.

28:24

This other thing of this guy who tracked me down from elementary school.

On Facebook.

I haven’t seen any turn out to be a sociopath.

It was it was pretty deep and these are all archived.

They’re all available.

Yeah, it didn’t disappear.

No, no, no beard.

Right?

No, the archive, the most recent 50 are always free like they’re free for six months.

28:44

Okay, then they go behind the paywall which is howl, howl dot f, m– to house the archives.

Uh-huh.

So they’re all, yeah, they’re all available.

You just got to join how for like, 8 bucks or whatever it is.

But to get to your other thing, you might monetizing and metrics, you know, all the only metrics and also jealousy.

29:02

So the only metric someone’s jealousy for me, is the, my main kind of guy was crazy.

I’m crazy.

Yeah, I think so.

But yeah, I would look, I’m imagining myself.

Having been a Pioneer in something in 2009, and then all these people, I’ve interviewed now have their own show.

29:18

I feel like it would work me a bit.

But again, depending on where my own self esteem was that day.

Maybe I’d be happy for them.

Maybe I went, but I do want to tell you so certainly not the case.

What was The case, the being happy for somebody who’s not is never.

The rarely an option.

Yeah, you lately.

29:33

It has me like you, my life has changed enough in certain things have happened around my self-esteem because of accomplishments that enable me to be that way.

Now, but not then, right?

And so, I basically what I want to tell you why, I have one because you’re largely to credit for a why I started one because I’ve done a bunch of movies.

29:53

I’ve done a few TV shows and people, you know, they Tell me what they think of those things when I’m out in the world.

And those those interactions are never really what I want them to be for whatever reason either.

I think.

Oh, they just recognize me.

30:09

They don’t know what else to say.

So they gotta say, I love blank, right?

If they’re in an awkward situation or of my self-esteem’s really high and they say that was great.

I think great, but I know that’s not going to fill up the hole.

So it, what does it matter?

Right?

Point is of all the things I’ve done the way people have talked to me.

30:28

About my interview on your show has been really profound.

It’s made me feel wonderful in a way that no response to anything I’ve ever done.

Really has.

Wow, I’d say your show and Sam Jones, both of those were like, you know, his an hour-long format.

30:47

I don’t know how long you and I talked.

But I’ve had people say to me like, oh, you know, man, I’ll check in with that episode like, every few weeks that story, really?

Right?

And I go, holy shit.

That Means a ton to me because someone didn’t write that for me.

It wasn’t a great director or it’s not the, you know, I didn’t benefit from a super well-choreographed.

31:07

Anything.

It’s just who I am and wow, that affected, somebody, that makes me feel really fucking good.

Yeah, than any of the other stuff rise, and I thought fuck that.

I like, that, that feels nice.

I would like to do that more, and it’s really because of you.

So I can at one time, I could see where if I were you, I’d be like, awesome, dude.

31:28

You’re the, he’s started the millions podcast, but I just want you to know why?

Yeah, I would want to do what you do because it now, it is important.

Yeah, I’m very flattered now and I’m glad that you had that experience.

Your show has this huge reach which I don’t have to tell you about but there are different things where you you do them and then it may surprise you there.

31:45

Reach one of them is Stern like when I did Stern, I’m like, holy fuck so many people.

Listen to stern.

Alright, I’m at least judging that based on like Twitter restaurants and stuff.

Right?

And then people have been with him for years.

The yes everyday, their whole lives.

Some people, you know, and and then your show is very similar to that because if people they listen to it, it’s not like they listen to it.

32:08

As they would watch a TV show, right?

Two and a Half Men.

This is like a part of their identity in some weird way.

That’s true for some people.

Yeah, and that’s really cool in in there.

They’re in a relationship with you.

Yes, and in they can, they don’t have to be entertained per se, they don’t have to be, you know, there’s all right there, just in a With you and they enjoy the relationship, right?

32:29

And it’s very unique and cool.

It’s wild.

Yeah.

I took a long time to sort of realize that but you know, when people come up to me, they’re like, you know, I know you really will we do it but you don’t know me at all.

Yes, and I’m like, that’s true.

Yeah, I’m sorry that but I I hope you’re having a good relationship with me.

32:46

Yeah, and wow.

I hadn’t even thought of that on my own, but I will say that when people have knew me from movies.

Yeah, there was a big separation, right?

And then, when people know me from Parenthood I was in their living room and I actually We could feel that what people talk about is like oh if you’re in people’s living room once a week, yeah, they do feel like they know you even more and then of course your that character that carry.

33:07

Yes.

Yes.

My girlfriend’s big fan of Parenthood.

Is there.

One of her things she watched?

Who’s your girlfriend right now?

Sarah Cain, she’s a painter.

Yeah, the painter.

Yeah, but oh, but the jealousy thing for me was that, you know, a lot of the guys that did that have the big podcast.

33:23

Now, they did come after me around the same time like, you know, hard way Canard Rogue.

You know was a little after me, I think they were both a little after me, really right?

And then there are a lot of people that can’t.

It’s just a hard works though.

Is so genuine.

Don’t you agree, at least it clearly it reeks of like a genuine interest in the thing he’s talking about.

33:44

I guess, you know, I you know, I’ve always had a problem, we’ve had problems over the years.

I’ve had problems with all of them over the years.

Yeah, in my own mind.

Sure, you know, but I had them on, I try to reconcile it and, you know, somebody told me the other Other day that he, you were instrumental in him getting sober.

34:02

That’s right.

Right.

No matter what thing you do or don’t have with him.

That’s right.

Yeah, I gave your he ultimately were the first person I think he talked to.

I remember when he was pudgy and sweaty and drunk.

Yeah.

Galifianakis.

I found him there in Venice.

Yeah, I think that’s when it happened.

Yeah.

34:17

Where he was just like and look he’s all right, you know.

It just I found it to be.

I’ve told him to his face.

I said, you know, we I think you’re what are you trying to be the nerd?

Ryan?

Like, I would love to be outside.

Uh-huh.

Nobody’s doing, you know, like it.

I mean, you know, he’s a good broadcaster.

34:34

He’s, you know, a good personality.

You know, he is Broad enough, that his appeal is vast, he also seems to have the unique gift of being able to juggle a million things at once.

Like yeah.

No, he’s no much guy.

34:49

I’m the I have to be singular.

I can’t even I can’t even answer an email from you.

I don’t even have that.

I can’t even manage my email account.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I have to be so singular focused on something.

I just don’t do a very good job at it.

Yeah, I’m impressed with his ability to, he knows how to deliberate power.

35:07

You know, I keep delegate, right?

Yeah.

That’s it.

You tailgate trust me.

I didn’t mean to say that the correct you.

I think that’s right idea.

And I am wrong words all the time.

I don’t do that.

Well, do you delegate?

No, I doubt it.

Me and my partner, Brendan if we don’t, and we didn’t, we didn’t build a network or not part of a network, you know, we run our own shop, you know, because we’re, you know, we’re very Oh freaky about you know the quality of what we’re doing.

35:30

Yes, you know, but you know, I don’t know that you necessarily become rich like that right in the way that Chris wanted to be rich.

Like if you want to be rich, how important is being rich to you.

What’s not in me?

I’m glad I’m making money and I’m glad, you know, that things worked out for me.

35:46

Yeah.

And that, you know, I’m making a healthy living but it was never never it’s not an obsession of you.

No, no no.

No, I just heard from fear of economic insecurity.

I do suffer from that, but but but That doesn’t mean I want to be rich.

I just want to be economically secure.

Yeah, but what does that mean?

36:02

I mean, I guess that well, I don’t want to worry about money.

Yeah, but I don’t need it.

I don’t need a hundred million dollars, right?

You don’t lay in bed going.

Fuck.

I gotta get this number.

I get the no, not very safe.

No.

Well, there’s that but it’s not that big a number.

Okay, but like somebody Louis seems to have the similar relationship with money or at least if I’m to believe him on Stern which is he doesn’t worry about, it doesn’t think about it.

36:27

Does he care?

Yes, he just but he spends it.

He needs to spend money to make it like he used to, you know, like he like if he when he makes bad financial decisions.

It forces him to work, right?

He’s one of those guys.

I’m not that guy.

He’s not I’m not gonna lose everything.

Come here to force my hand on generating, something meals as the probably the unique ability to just go out on the road at any given moment.

36:49

Now, right now.

Yeah, he had I should have said he had the unique ability to at any point.

Go.

Fuck it.

I’m just gonna go do tweet.

That’s right, sir.

That’s right.

Yeah, I do.

Don’t, you know, we haven’t been talking, I, you know, I’ve reached out.

I think, you know, I don’t know how he’s feeling about things.

But yeah, before the shit, hit the fan with him.

37:05

Yeah.

Yeah, he could do that.

Like, you know, if he was in a pinch.

Yeah, that’s kind of a superpower.

It’s a boy, it’s good.

If you have a following that’s about an audience, but the jealousy thing like like will, Chris obviously had a plan to take over the world.

Chris Hardwick wanted to be in, you know, have an Empire and also an assets that he could sell, you know, like he that was the plan.

37:28

I know other people entrepreneurial people that are like, you judgmental of that plan or you like no, but I am to have it.

No, it’s fine with me.

I you my problems with him or ultimately around.

Like are you a comic right?

You know, and do you give a shit?

You know, like what are you creating?

37:43

Is this, just a brand who are you in there?

Yeah, you know and it but It ultimately seems to be going to interrupt you.

There seems to be a theme with this within stand-ups, right?

So yeah.

Okay.

Let’s exclusionary to me, right?

Because I did sketch.

Each comedy, but that wouldn’t be a comedian in your book.

38:00

Right?

No, I thought, but I’ve that, but that’s not the point.

You’re not doing comedy.

You’re not.

You’re not going up there being a stand-up.

Like I wouldn’t judge you, you know, like, you know what I mean?

Like I knew Hardwick when he was like, you know, it’s sort of like drunky Bro.

38:16

E.

Yo.

Host on MTV, right?

Yeah, he came to stand up later.

But you know, by this point he certainly paid his dues and he’s got an audience and you know, he can do it.

Yeah, you know, but there was always something within me like It before I, when I was younger was like stand-ups.

38:32

They happen a certain way.

We pay our dues to certain, that’s what I’m wondering.

Is it that you like?

Is it, is it is it?

Because there’s, there’s so much suffering in.

So, doing stand-up from the beginning.

However, long, you do it.

There’s this a lot of fucking pain and suffering, right?

If you become for some people, that’s what I learned after doing the show.

38:50

You can’t generalize and a lot of great comic minds are not fucked up a lot.

You know, there’s a lot of people are very speculative.

Ooh, yeah, Will Ferrell and someone else, but no, but I mean, people come from all different places.

I’ve loosened my bitterness and judgment around but how it was true or not.

39:07

True.

If your experience was a tremendous amount of pain and suffering and living still, he’s just paying your dues wasn’t happy suffering that you know, and, you know, there was a way to be a comic and now it doesn’t exist.

That training does not exist in the same way, right?

39:25

But but I’m not a musician.

So I can certainly understand if you’re a musician and you watch American Idol.

You go.

This is bullshit.

This is like you’re taking a shortcut, right?

But you could also lose sight of the fact that well Kelly Clarkson is still a fucking amazing singer, right?

39:41

Like so, you know, the end of the day, if I guess I’m what I’m what I’m curious about is that I don’t think you see in like, you know, I don’t know what occupation where as other people enter it, we have known for it there.

They’re mad that other people have entered this.

39:58

So for Chris, he has the label of a comedian and that doesn’t feel earned.

It did for a while.

But like I think what he is a host, uh-huh, you know, which is a comedians job.

It’s one of the job is available to comedians, but I think, I think he’s always been a host.

And, you know, the comedy thing was good, got him some chops, you know, he can go out and tour a little bit, tell his nerd stories.

40:19

Uh-huh.

But, you know, I think that his job in Show Business is a host and he’s fine with that job, you know, whether it’s a game show.

Host when talk, Show host.

He’s a host guy.

Now, when you were doing stand-up and you were looking at other stand-ups, the trajectory used to be right in the 90s, as if you were a breakout stand up, you then got a sitcom, you got a deal, you know, I mean, that was the model for a while based on, you know, a few people back in the day Rose and everything.

40:46

There was an a model where you get.

You could just buy a comic with a point of view.

Yeah, give him, give him a deal and then get a writer with him.

And, you know, let’s see if we can get it up and going and you’ll feel them.

Was that a path that you saw yourself on?

Who’s just something that you you know, you expected in work hard enough.

41:03

So like, where’s my deal?

You know, I got a deal back then, you know, and you know, I wrote it out for a couple of scripts that never went to pilate.

Yeah.

I had a small deal or two coming up.

I had all those opportunities that never went anywhere, right?

The podcast is what got me everything that I have and that’s something I did on my own.

41:21

You know, I put some guys, you know, we’re like fuck the deals or whatever.

Well, the whole reason I’m asking you is is that I got us in full.

Honesty, I was blown away with how good you are on glow, like sincerely our friend Jackie’s on the show.

So we were compelled to check it out.

And as we’re checking it out to watch, Jackie, I’m going fucking Marin is, it’s such a bull’s-eye.

41:43

You’re so good at it.

And I think an outsider who doesn’t know about?

It would go.

Oh, he’s just being himself which as someone who’s been doing this for 25 years.

It’s the fucking hardest thing in the world to do yourself.

Weirdly it takes The utmost confidence because none of us think were interesting enough, right?

42:02

Just be right.

Well, I think that with him with Sam Sylvia having done four seasons of my own show.

Mmm.

And, you know, that and that came because the podcast, you know, got me the following got me, you know, stand up attention.

It, got me, the TV show the last book, so ultimately on some level.

42:19

Not, you know, not so much glow.

But like, I’d always wanted to do that, but I think knowing just offered that to you, though.

I know.

Oh, you are you ready for it?

They didn’t know what they wanted.

It and, you know, I wasn’t really looking, I just finished my show, but I wanted to do some acting and they sent me a script, my manager did.

42:34

And I’m like, I could do this guy and I put it on, you know, we videoed it right now.

I did.

I saw it today classes on self taped by put, it will cost shirt on some Aviator glasses.

I read with my personal trainer, lady who wants to be an actress.

Oh good.

And yes, it would be something if she had zero interest in Reading.

42:53

No.

No, she did it and and they cast me a Genji.

Liked me.

I don’t think.

Think the show Runners were initially sold from what I understand.

But Genji.

Who’s producing it.

Jenji Kohan was like, that’s your guy.

So, but with that guy, you know, that parts of that guy live in me, you know, and also that guy gives me license, you know, to maybe like, you know, exploring, you know, sexism and and and sort of Oats being a bully and but also being a fundamentally insecure.

43:24

And and someone who I is life isn’t working out.

For right.

What’s?

So I could I could identify with that but I make certain choices in that character that are not me.

Like I think in this you do you just mentioned it, you have some cover fire of it being set in the 80s, right?

43:40

Sure.

Like you can, as you say, you can be more sexist.

You can know it’s written that way.

Yeah, but isn’t that liberating in a weird way?

Because I think do you like myself, you kind of in a weird way you Lament The that.

Basically any kind of racial observations are off the table.

Now, any kind of female Mal observations like comedy?

43:57

Has been stifled a bit lately, right?

Yeah, push through you know, like you got pushed through like I think that you know, that this right now it’s volatile, but there’s going to be a balance, you know, I mean, it’s going to like, you know, what’s happening is righteous, but like ultimately, you know, we can’t walk around your completely self censoring, right?

44:22

And and like how the how it shakes out culturally with men and women?

You know, that’s always an ongoing project.

Yeah, but for me, too.

To, you know, to be able to do that guy, but then to find a Hartnett guy and to find a kindred spirit in Alison’s character.

44:42

Like, I just, you know, I’ve talked to a lot of actors I’ve done.

I’ve played myself.

I know I learned how to be on camera and stuff.

So that stuff was in great education, you through the hundreds of hours, you’ve done of the podcast and you’ve gotten a response that says you are trusting, you know, you are right.

45:02

You haven’t all quality.

Worth paying attention to do you think that gave you a confidence acting?

Well, oddly, you know, I was very nervous at the beginning of my own show, but walking on the glow, I knew like, this isn’t on my shoulders.

I’m not producing, I’m not writing, you know, like I got to put this guy’s pants on and find out, you know, who he is, you know, which is oddly, you know, you put the pants on, it makes a big difference, you know, you shave, my soul, patch off, but the glasses on, I’m a hair going and I read the It.

45:34

And so I wasn’t that nervous, maybe the first day or two.

Yeah, but like you go seem foreseen, you compartmentalize like I’m able to memorize whines.

Uh, you know, I can do that.

I was doing a show.

My show.

I was in every scene and I was writing it.

Yeah, so like, you know, and we didn’t have a budget and we had, we were shooting.

45:52

You were doing eight to Fifteen.

Way easier to memorize your own writing, isn’t it?

Yeah, but it wasn’t really my writing.

But I had a writers room.

Okay, you know, but still but every scene so I just got into a system.

Yeah, of like, you know, like, you know, After some point you you can’t do the night before Shake because you can familiarize yourself with what’s going to happen.

46:09

You I can know the story and and, and read the lines and maybe if you got a big speech or something, maybe try to get that in your head.

But ultimately you’re going to do it when you’re there and you’re with your co-stars and you’re like, let’s run this, what’s running let’s run it and then, you know, you’re going to do sort of several different angles of coverage and you can work it that way.

46:28

Yeah, but like for me like it’s more, get a sense of it.

Look at it.

Read it out loud.

Memorize if you can but, you know, be in it, the day it is liberating isn’t because I went from doing a couple year-long bit of work.

46:44

Well, yeah, I was only acting and what I had written and directed, right?

Yeah, and then I the first time last year did another person’s movie?

And I got there.

I was like, oh, right.

This is fun.

I get to just concentrate on this moment.

Right?

And that’s really fun and liberating.

47:00

Like there was an airiness tourists.

I’m worried about ya.

There is the element with when the other person, worry about the full story that surely turn.

I just got to be honest about this moment.

They’ll tell me if that doesn’t work in the full story.

Exactly.

That’s nice.

That’s the way to look gets a good way to look at it.

47:15

And I started to look at that more that way in the second season, but for me like, it’s like fuck we have been here three hours and, you know, yeah, but like, I’m not complaining, but I, you know, there’s a lot of things I do, and there’s some part of acting when you’re when you’re there for the day and you’re shooting one scene.

47:34

Yeah, and your downtime is like five or six hours.

It’s rough where you’re like, sort of, I could have been doing a, you know, it’s my number one trigger, which is, I hate being a part of a bad plan.

Like if I’m at a friend’s house and they want to move a couch through a fucking doorway.

And I can see that the person calling out which way to tilt it is doing.

47:51

Its I find it insufferable.

I just can’t be a part of a terrible plan and quite often on asset.

You’re a part of this really poorly laid plan into their credit.

Like I didn’t live far from set.

So like there were times where my How long does it’s gonna be three hours?

You think like, the idea would tell me, you know, and I’d be like, yeah.

48:10

Yeah.

Yeah, let me know.

It wasn’t.

It was just me a justing to a lot of being on a set is waiting.

And, you know, and how do you spend that time?

But like, I generally sit on set, I watch the other people work.

I’ll fucking, you know, I’ll, you know, read a bit.

I look at my phone and are you doing?

48:26

Are you kind of revered?

There?

Is it like a fun thing for you to be the older member of the cast and a lot of it don’t know.

I don’t know, you know, the girls have got a lot to do the women of get you the wrestling and they’re like, everybody sort of doing their work.

That’s what’s amazing about it.

My, there’s like 13, 14 women.

They’re just in the, in the cast.

48:43

Uh-huh.

And they’re working, where everyone’s working, you know, we, socialize and stuff, but but it’s intense, you know, and their jobs are a little more intense, but I was just happy that, you know, like the second season like there were times where I’m like, am I doing the guy or am I just being me?

Like, so can I just tell you?

49:00

I remember coming home and season 2 of Parenthood and I said to Kristin, I don’t know if I’ve Lazier.

Something like I feel like I’m not putting in the world, right?

I just had this weird Pang of guilt that it was too easy.

Yeah, and she goes.

Oh, no.

And that’s what being on a TV show.

As it gets progressively easier every year because you just know the character.

49:17

So, well, you don’t even have to really think about it and she was right.

I got better as an actor on it, but I was doing less and less and less but it was a weird thing.

So that’s good to hear.

Yeah, like, you know, your most certainly if you have that feeling you’re getting better at the roll, okay.

And in by, you know, however many I hope Or you doesn’t Seasons.

49:36

It just gets easier and easier.

Yeah, and for us, like, six year, I was like, I could read a scene in the makeup trailer.

Five minutes before we shot.

It’d be better than when I had worked on shit for two days.

That’s I’m saying.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s wild, right?

And then you can also that muscle, you can memorize shit way fast, or at least, I could all of a sudden I could, you could hand me a scene.

49:55

I could do it 10 minutes.

That’s right.

I don’t think everybody can do that.

But, I mean, it’s a good thing to be able to do is I really assume everyone can do it because I was so bad at memorizing.

When I started the show, and I had all this anxiety about increasing goes, no, no, honey.

You’re going to be, it’s going to get really easy for you and I’m like, no, but I’m dyslexic and I won’t be that way for me about it.

50:13

Was it exactly that way for me and I got was generally, huh, but here’s why when tell you about jealousy to is that like, it’s it it’s not nearly as bad as it used to be ultimately over time.

Once all of us stored figured out how to make our shows, our own, and make a living at it, or make some money, or do whatever the hell we were doing.

50:31

I became less obsessed with other people.

I just do the job.

I want to know, because you’ve had a fucking pretty awesome last few years, right?

Yeah, and I think, if we’re similar, as I think we are, you tell yourself all growing up?

Like, if I have this, I’m going to feel this way.

50:49

If I have this amount of money, I’ll feel this way.

If I have this amount of success, I’ll feel this way.

I like myself all my self-esteem will be good.

You said something earlier that goes contrary to my experience, which is, it sounds like the success has healed some stuff for you.

Is it you think that’s accurate?

51:05

Definitely it has yeah interesting because my my experiences okay.

I got this stuff.

I wanted I feel the same exact way about myself, get man.

The things I’ve discovered that gives me self-esteem are not related at all to the things.

51:21

I thought would give me self-esteem.

Well, some things I should.

Yeah.

I understand that.

I’m shocked to hear.

That yours is different.

I don’t know if it’s different.

I think that the things that you probably find in give you self-esteem.

I could probably use more of because the fundamental, Insecurities or tapes that I tell myself around, you know, how I look or whether I’m funny and that do that’s that’s tempered a little bit.

51:42

Like I the thing that’s happened for me because you most of my career self-designed, whether it be stand up or the podcast or the show is that, I can see very clearly that I’ve gotten better at all of them.

Uh-huh, you know, which means that I’ve worked hard and, you know, I can now see that I can do things like, I know, Imitations of my talent but I also know where I can push it a little harder, and I’m okay with that.

52:08

I have a certain amount of self-acceptance around my shortcomings, right?

Yeah.

So, and by the way, that’s a nasty mobile act.

Getting better at something improving on something, working hard at something that is something that can improve, your self-esteem.

That’s right, but going to the SAG Awards, and I don’t know, Billy Bob Thornton says, hi to you for me, like, you know, like I there was a period there during the show where, like, people would say, like you’re showing be like, you know, but I do stand up to like that.

52:34

I cast right was like this default, you know, but then it became something.

I was very good at the me and then became respected at it.

You know, I give you for some reason.

I had a knack for talking to people in a certain way that was uniquely mind.

And so I started to accept that.

So now I accept like I don’t ask people when they say I like your show.

52:50

I’m like which, you know like yeah, what was your favorite one?

Daniel?

My TV show, glow the podcast.

What what?

What do you like?

Because I want to know how I feel about it.

I’ll just say thank you.

Yeah, and then if the conversation continues, usually I can figure it out.

But what ultimately, you know, has happened is that you know, my partner and I we were not entrepreneurs, we did not set out to make money.

53:12

We had no idea.

He was probably going to be a career guy, you know, in satellite radio or News television of some sort and, you know, I was going to bounce around for whatever however long and be rooms or whatever.

So the fact that was we got into this medium early enough to where it was.

53:31

Nebulous.

People didn’t know how do you make money and not lose?

Listeners, how do you, how do we do this?

I mean, I was packing envelope sending schwag packets, the people that donated you know, on PayPal right in the first year or two.

Yeah, so we evolved with the business and we built a business and we run a business and you know, I’m very proud of him and you know, he’s, you know, he came full time with me for years ago, you know, like he was working.

53:56

He couldn’t even say he was producing my show because he was doing it, you know, and on his own time, you’re working on, MSNBC shows, you know, doing Like he was Moonlighting on your right and the fact that like when he said I’m going to come on and like they’ll you know, what don’t you know, II can go down but you know, you got a kid.

54:13

I don’t want her going down on me.

He’s like, I’m not yeah, I did the research, you know, don’t worry about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So like the fact that he bought his first house and you know, and I you know, and I’m part of that that you know, that’s T-Mobile to me that we built this thing together, you know, not knowing anything and a new medium.

54:30

Yeah, and then like the fact that like, I don’t get scared.

I’m not scared of And up anymore.

I’m not scared of acting anymore.

I do get scared when I have to talk to people.

Uh-huh, but that’s okay, you know because, you know, my heart’s going to go, you know what I mean?

So that’s tough.

But the part of your story that I do think is people could could glean something from our take as advice which you would never give.

54:49

But I just reading about you last night.

I saw in you someone that you put a million fucking pokers in the fire, like you try to million different things and you stayed active and you were obviously.

It’s obvious now, You were open to whatever, what way the river was flowing, ultimately, right?

55:09

Like so you had an idea of who you were going to be.

I don’t know who that was fucking Richard, Pryor something and then somehow, but you stayed busy, you did a bunch of things you’re doing radio.

You start a podcast, and then you’re open to the fact that you might be great at something.

You didn’t pick four years.

I’d like to.

55:24

I’d like to it have been as pleasantly framed as you’re framing it, but like it at what happened to me is that?

Yeah.

I wanted to be a comedian.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wanted to be a great comedian.

Me.

And, you know, I’m a, I’m a pretty great comedian.

But the fact was that when the podcast happened, I had to fully accept in my heart because if I didn’t, I would be delusional.

55:45

That, you know, I probably wasn’t going to be on TV show.

I probably wasn’t going to be a great comedian.

Like I wasn’t going to sell the tickets.

Like I hit a wall and you know, and I didn’t know what to do.

I didn’t want to be a no-name comic doing be rooms for the rest of my life.

56:01

I’d rather die.

Yeah, so so I had to That a lot of shit go.

It’s all identity shit, right?

You had an identity, you had this, I worked for the, it was, it was working.

It didn’t work.

It didn’t work.

I’ve been doing comedy for 15-20 years at that point, and it didn’t work, but that, but that takes strength.

56:18

And that’s something that I hope people will, kind of, think about is like, okay.

Well, I have picked this identity for myself, and but I would encourage people to be a little fluid about that and be a little open to that.

Maybe we’re not the best at picking our identity.

That’s right, but my flexibility, Was always, you know, it was like I was always kind of like beaten, you know, like it was never like right, you weren’t on top going.

56:42

Okay, and I’m going to try this.

No, no, no.

Like I did radio because like, I had nothing going on.

Yeah.

And what, but one thing that’s obvious about use, you have the crazy fucking drive.

I don’t know, your dad was a surgeon, right?

Yeah.

Taipei, and some, yeah, City, probably, but you have this incredible drive your indomitable, right?

57:01

You’ve had your ass kicked a trillion fucking times and then Keep starting over, haven’t liked it.

Give because like the weird thing is that for someone who doesn’t think about money, you know, when someone is taking all your money and you know, you like they’re really does become this weird kind of grown-up moment where you like how the fuck am I going to survive?

57:19

Uh-huh.

You know, what am I?

What am I going to do?

Like, I’m 40, whatever.

I was when I started the podcast.

Like I can’t I’m not going to try to write on someone show, you know, if I can’t, you know, I really don’t want to just like spend my life on the road, not being known.

Yeah, like, there’s In the weird thing is, is like, I had powerful representation to some degree.

57:37

But, you know, we had a lot of shots.

Yeah, and, you know, and I’d seen when you’re in this business, You See It?

Go badly for people.

Oh sure.

You see people are often this.

It goes well for people like, so all this was to be, I see when I’ve witnessed that a bunch of times on my short ride.

57:53

And what I generally see is kind of just a lack of flexibility, like they were, they were not able to, they might not been able, they might not have the talent to it.

You know, who the hell knows, you know, whether someone Stubborn and they just can’t do the other thing.

I mean like I was fortunate enough that I don’t know what it was two acts but yeah, flexibility out of necessity.

58:15

Yeah, but you know, like if you’re encouraging people to do that without it having being desperate, great, give it a try.

But the funny thing is, is that Pride you have leading the parade so to speak in determining what you see yourself, as, you know, even when it’s not happening in any way can completely delude you.

58:34

You.

Yeah, you know and you know and oh, yeah, so like, you know and you’re still fighting a war.

Like I’m in a welding mask on, you just can’t see anything and everyone else sees it.

He has very obvious to everyone else.

Look at that guy’s got no clothes on my very promise.

Last question is can you be a victim of your own comedic Persona and I’m gonna?

58:53

Yeah, it’s very funny because it’s point of view.

It is point of view, but here’s why what specifically, what you ever see that Bobby Fischer documentary on HBO.

Chess champion, so he was a grand master and he was a champion.

And then eventually, he became paranoid, right?

59:11

Like clinical paranoid and he’s gone, batshit crazy, think he lives in Iceland.

He’s an anti-semitic now and all this crazy stuff.

But in that documentary, they said, Oh, all these all these past Grandmasters have become paranoids.

The reason being is all day long.

They sit there and they forecasts Doom, right?

59:27

If I move here, he’s going to move here, right?

And so the part of the brain, they’re using eight hours a day is getting stronger and stronger and stronger.

ER, and then they can’t unbend unwire their brain.

Now, they’re always forecasting, Doom everywhere.

They go at Rite-Aid no matter where they’re at.

But they also need to structure the world in a way that they have some control over.

59:48

Like, I think that paranoia it creates its own Dogma like, you know, like you create a system that makes you believe you understand how the world works.

Yeah, and that’s what chess is.

Do you play chess?

No.

Yeah, but but the reason I was thinking It is.

1:00:04

So I’ve done Leno’s like car show a couple times.

I’ve been on his show right now.

I’ve been to his garage Jay Leno and he told me at one point.

Like, you know, I said, where’s your wife, how she doing?

He said?

Oh, she’s on a vacation.

You know, I go.

Do you ever go with her on vacay?

How you gon?

I don’t go on vacation.

I got to work.

Right?

1:00:20

And so that is his Persona is that he’s blue collar and he works a lot and I get it.

It’s very successful for him.

But then at a certain point, I’m pulling back going.

Yeah, but you should go on vacation.

You should swim in your pool, you can Very easily become a victim of your own Persona.

1:00:37

Oh, yeah, and I in yours is a little bit grumpy, right?

Your persona.

Yeah, and then I just wonder how you keep that in check.

No, I’m fighting it.

Like I don’t really want to be grumpy and like I just do you have a fear that if you transition into like a very happy grateful person.

1:00:53

It’s not a skier.

I think that like, you know, a lot of those things aren’t really conscious is that, you know, you’ve got a way of being that, you know, is sort of home base for you for most of your life.

So like it’s a little Harder to.

It’s hard to just decide not to do that anymore.

But the flexibility thing I think you know, I have no awareness of it.

1:01:12

If I hadn’t lived with Chris in the last 10 years and I watch someone doing virtually the opposite of what I do.

Yeah, in every situation.

Yeah, my girlfriend checks.

Me like that.

Yeah, and then getting these rewards that I was searching for, right?

I get very obsessed with dumb shit.

You like.

I just bought a new house and it’s really like, I waited a long time, you know, I’ve lived in that same house that I lived in, you know, the only House ever bought was that one, you know, that podcast started, you know, and I finally just sort of like, fuck it.

1:01:39

I got no wife.

I got no kids.

What am I gonna do?

Like, I’m going by, you’ll get a new house, you idiot, you know, live life and I love the new house.

Uh-huh.

But like I’m still a little hung up on.

Is there a little voice?

Yeah, going.

This is dangerous.

No, the voice is like, how much I gotta pay to have this place cleaned every week.

1:01:55

All right, you know.

Like like, you know, like do I had, can I afford this, you know, yeah, like I don’t ever think of myself as somebody who earns money, you know, or that it’s going to keep earning money.

You know, so that that makes me nervous but I get over that.

But then I got obsessed with like that.

Get the right chair.

Is this the right chair that can go on for months, why they get that fucking chair, right?

1:02:14

So, you know, it’s very stressful.

These chairs.

We select they can bring you down.

Yeah.

Well, I love you Marc Maron and I’m really glad that we navigated that texting exchange.

And again, I’m going to give all credit to you.

You were you were very sober and he responds and applying it to all your Affairs.

1:02:32

Why I applaud?

I’m crying and I appreciate I love you too.

And I when I wrote that response and Mike, he’s a sober guy.

I’m going.

So I’m gonna go straight I take responsibility.

How can we?

Yeah, you should have almost put like number nine next to it.

1:02:51

And that would have been God.

Descended.

That’s true.

That would be 10 if you attend, you put 10 next to it.

But anyways, I really in fact that you came so quickly after that exchange.

I just panicked and I’m good.

Get over there and I’m gonna actually had anxiety.

Like, what if I forget and then that’ll just be were sometimes you feel worse and like Crystal never do the show and they’re both gonna hate me.

1:03:13

Like, and I was in traffic.

I’m like, oh, I’m gonna be late.

Oh my God.

This is, what will America’s lovebirds doing and retribution.

Well, I swear to you here publicly that I’m gonna personally drive her to your house.

Did you hear podcast?

1:03:29

All right.

Good.

All right, and then you were just gonna hang out.

I’m gonna jerk off.

Stay tuned.

If you’d like to hear my good friend and producer, Monica badman point out the many errors in the podcast.

You just heard.

Monica, badman Dax Shepard, Marc, Maron what happened?

1:03:52

So, this is kind of a weird fact check, but I’m gonna do it.

Okay?

When you’re talking about your text exchange, he and eyes.

Yep.

Yeah, you went into my phone without my knowledge.

No, but sort of, I know that I know the details of this conversation because I was involved because you include other.

1:04:09

Yeah.

All right.

I sent you like a screengrab.

Yes.

Yeah.

So Mark said, you waited until the next day to respond and You said, no, it was that night because we had gone to dinner and then we’d watch peaky.

Blinders.

Yeah, and then you responded.

So must have been three hours later.

That’s what you said, but he is right here.

1:04:26

Really?

Yes, because it was Saturday that this exchange happened.

This text exchange.

Okay, Sunday is when we all went to dinner and we all watched peaky, blinders Saturday.

You guys had this exchange after during I don’t know, Ellen’s birthday party.

1:04:45

Okay, and And it must have been after on when you got home and then you fell asleep and then you respond to the next morning.

Whoa.

Whoa.

Whoa, okay.

Okay.

Okay, continue on, continue on.

1:05:01

I’m just gonna I’m gonna I got a fact, check your factory.

You can I have it in my phone to because you sent him to me.

Okay, don’t out me for sending UI.

By the way.

Anyone who ever text me.

I ice cream.

Grab it and I sent it directly.

1:05:18

I only said that because you told you said that in the episode.

Yes.

Okay, so, okay, so I’m just gonna see so the text was sent Tuesday, November 29th, 2008, snow.

1:05:35

That’s 2016.

That’s that’s not it.

Okay.

Okay, so Saturday, February 10th 2018.

He sent me a text.

At 7:17 p.m.

I responded at 11:15.

1:05:50

P.m.

Four hours later.

Yeah, not the next day.

But you responded with your antagonist.

Yeah, he’s talking about when you then said when you came back around you waited until the next day to do that.

And you did you waited until the morning. um, Yeah, yeah.

1:06:17

Yeah.

Yep.

You’re right.

You’re right.

You’re right.

You’re right.

Yeah, because he because I sent him one at 11:19.

That was edgy.

I was no, no, you’re not shit.

But can you imagine my point of view?

How that feels?

Yeah, right.

I’ve got a neutral, I was being vulnerable.

Can you imagine I feel bad that was at 11:19.

1:06:34

And then he responded 11:25.

And I was at that point, I had shut my phone, right?

Yeah, you’re right.

You’re right.

And then at 8:52, in the morning, I wrote first of all.

You’re working the shit out of the program.

Thank you for the apology.

I would love to have you on my podcast and I’m sure she would love to be on yours.

1:06:50

I think we can all be happy heart.

Yeah, okay.

Okay.

Okay.

I think I might have been confused about no response period.

I thought he was saying I did not respond at all to his first e-text until the next day.

Which I thought?

That’s where my confusion is.

Got it.

1:07:06

Okay.

He couldn’t find the name for the Women’s Basketball team, or he couldn’t remember the LA Galaxy Note, the California Golden Bears.

This is, I feel like these names are so insulting.

I don’t know.

If I die.

I said it any of this one and when Marin and I were talking but I just feel like they’re a little bit.

1:07:25

And using these names for the WNBA.

The exit was like the Sparkles and the golden.

Yeah, I didn’t to be golden bear bears as the fucking mascot for a sugar, Chris Wright or something.

Super sugar crisp.

Why can’t it just be Bears?

Yeah, you’re right Bears.

1:07:42

All right, I don’t love it.

Um, he’s talks about smoking Salvia and it is, he’s right.

It is salvia.

Mmm.

It’s a, it’s a plant species that has transient psychoactive properties.

1:07:57

You recommend this truck loose.

I can’t recommend it.

I’ve never done it.

Anyway, I’ve never done that either.

People should know this about you and I, as we have a long-standing debate, I desperately want you to try ecstasy before he died and mushrooms.

1:08:13

Yeah.

I don’t think you should leave planet Earth before in again.

This is vice is only to Monica.

I know her.

She’s a responsible person.

She has no addictive qualities.

I’m not prescribing this to everyone, but I will say Monica, Padma.

You leave this fucking planet without dancing on MDMA and holding someone’s hand and kissing.

1:08:31

It’s a fucking tragedy for you.

Yeah, everyone else can make their own decision.

But for me, I don’t think it would be a tragedy and I don’t know.

I have.

No, I apologize.

Mr. And mrs.

Pad man, but I’m holding firm on this.

Others also data that doing mushrooms.

1:08:48

Increases your long-term creativity.

Yes, pretty good.

Support of that now and I I think you need to take a walk through the woods with some friends and a lot of people who’ve done mushrooms who I don’t find it be super creative or I did not say it could make all people creative but it can, it can improve your own personal potential for creativity.

1:09:10

Yeah.

So whatever yours already is, we just had 10% to it or five percent or whatever.

Sure.

What would be great though is, if you have a eventually wear you down and you do it and you can report on it here on the podcast, I could.

Okay.

Continue.

Mark said he knew Chris Hardwick when The house on MTV.

1:09:26

And I didn’t know he was a host on MTV and he was on, singled out.

Yep.

Singled out a dating Jenny McCarthy.

Was she also the other?

Yes.

She was Melissa McCarthy’s cousin.

Yep, exactly.

And it was, it was about 50 men and 50 women and they were competing for a date with one main contestant of the opposite sex.

1:09:48

Hmm and cool.

Yeah, and I had an idea so he started Hosting kind of early on.

Yeah, I didn’t know.

Well, he’s cute if your comedic and cute.

It’s kind of a way up to be a hose on MTV.

1:10:04

Yeah, exactly.

You think he’s very cute.

Like, can we add that Chris Hardwick?

Yeah, you thought we had him on the podcast.

Yes, and when he left Monica was short of breath.

I was a pretty enamored by him.

Yeah, that’s great.

I like witnessing that well, I don’t this is turning into me getting embarrassed and I might That’s the goal do that.

1:10:27

But he he’s so smart Chris Hardwick.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We’re very off.

Marc Maron top.

Oh, sorry.

Yes, he’s incredibly smart.

Probably.

You could probably deserve a little love on this podcast.

Yeah, because Mark wasn’t as kind as he could have been.

1:10:44

Yeah, but I think that’s marks Persona it.

And it’s his opinion and his experience with him.

Yeah, just because ours is different or yours is different.

Anyway, I love Chris.

Hardwick is awesome.

I liked him very much.

You talk about the Bobby, Fischer, documentary on HBO.

1:11:03

I hope to God.

I’m right about this because I I tell that same story all the time.

And if I’m wrong, this is going to be a big bummer for me.

I don’t think you’re wrong.

It’s confusing because it’s nowhere to be found on HBO now, okay.

1:11:19

And HBO stock piles their stuff.

So like if you go on HBO GO you can find all of Thing.

Well, the ones that they produced.

So there’s a few documentaries.

I’ve seen under that.

I’ve recommended to people that vanish from there.

Like, I’m hot coffee, was when I loved that.

I saw on HBO and it’s not on there anymore.

1:11:36

And it’s it’s about tort reform.

It’s phenomenal.

You just you just witness this on HBO’s.

Yeah, it aired on HBO, but I don’t know that it was their original documentary that they all do not write.

It was because it’s not there anymore and I couldn’t find very much information.

1:11:53

On the document.

Anyway, it’s Called Bobby Fischer against the world.

That sounds right.

Hmm.

Yeah, it’s very on.

He’s gone berserk.

He’s dead.

That’s part of the.

Oh, he’s dead.

That’s part of this.

He was living a nice one though, right?

You what he was living.

Yeah, maybe in Iceland, definitely in some Faraway, isolated area, the Arctic Circle, he died in 2008.

1:12:15

He died 10 years ago.

He’s, I’m not up to date on him.

He’s no longer present with us.

Yes.

As they say.

How did he die, Bobby?

Fisher died of kidney.

Earlier, okay, unrelated to his paranoia, and let’s maybe he was so paranoid.

He stopped drinking water.

1:12:31

Uh-huh.

Or is.

Yeah, exactly.

He thought the only thing safe you could eat was led.

Yeah, something crazy.

You don’t even know gives you a renal failure.

But yeah, he lived in Iceland and he did have clinical paranoia and he was an anti-semite at the end of his life.

Yeah, and then you said all Grandmasters have paranoia and they don’t all a couple say all.

1:12:51

Yeah.

Okay.

I thought I said it’s common, but you’re probably right.

Hope you know your, I bet you’re right.

Thank you said, it makes a better story.

When I say all, yeah, has more of an emphasis, which is why you said it, but it isn’t true.

It’s some of them do a lot of them have had weird stuff, but they can’t really they can’t correlate it to chess.

1:13:12

The big to Bobby, Fischer, and Paul morphy.

Okay, two big ones that were paranoid and you know, had some psychotic, but how many Grand Master’s are there to begin with?

So it’s Got to be a small pool.

So even if 20% of us, how many Jesus criminy?

1:13:34

Okay, you mentioned that the end that Marin should have put a number 10 next to the text from the 12-step program.

And, and so, do you want to say what the number 10 is?

People don’t know.

No, it’s go ahead, read it.

I want the right verb agile.

1:13:50

Oh, I’ll miss a word.

Number 10 out of 12 in the 12 steps is continue to take personal inventory and when we are wrong promptly admitted.

Yeah.

Yeah, not super close for someone’s.

1:14:07

Been reading those things for 13 years ago.

I should be really off book on all that.

I just have to condense it to when we were wrong.

We promptly admitted it, I think is my head.

What it’s become.

Yeah.

Again, that’s why I’m always very clear to say my understanding of this because Who’s got their own and that is the beauty.

1:14:24

I just want to say one more than another plug for AAA is.

It’s a, it’s one of the few social structures structures that has no hierarchy.

There’s no one in charge.

No one’s allowed to say you’re you’re interpreting it correctly or incorrectly.

There’s no brass.

1:14:40

Yeah, that’s cool.

It’s like a girl.

I really do.

There are open meetings.

It says in.

Hey, there are if you look in the AA meeting guide, it’ll say whether it’s a an open door closed meeting if it’s closed.

It means only alcoholics going to attend if it’s open.

1:14:56

Nah.

Nah, yeah, so there are open meetings.

So you guys were talking about and you’ve mentioned this a few times throughout our tenure, that that sort of life.

If you’re, if you’re sort of doing it right requires some flexibility of identity.

1:15:15

Uh-huh.

You have to be sort of flexible and that just was reminding me because I what I think the best piece Of advice I’ve ever gotten in my 12 years of life is love.

The thing that loves you back.

1:15:30

Hmm, which is that basically, when some things Rob thing, that loves you back.

Oh, that’s, I like that a bunch.

Yeah, that’s similar to the song, Love the One You’re With?

Yeah.

That’s all that, was it.

Yeah.

All right.

All right.