Podcast

Description

At the start of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, European leaders painted the battle in stark moral terms, imposing harsh sanctions against Russia and talking about President Volodymyr Zelensky as a hero.

But as the war drags on, different conversations have taken place behind the scenes to consider what Ukraine might need to give up to achieve peace.

Guest: Matina Stevis-Gridneff, the Brussels bureau chief for The New York Times.

Transcript