OpenAI Five Benchmark： Post-Game Analysis ｜ OpenAI

Video

Transcript

okay here we go started the video hello

everybody that’s hello everybody that’s

gonna be watching this

I’m blitz I am a professional dota 2

caster / commentator was a former

professional player I am joined here by

Kyle who I guess Kyle you are a former

professional / current professional

player who is played at can I say

several several t is a little bit of a

stretch you have been at t eyes and you

will also be working as a commentator

for this year’s international okay so

what we’re going to be doing here today

is just going over the replays of the

games that I played against the open AI

we’re gonna specifically look at gaming

them number one and number three of

course I played the game but I have not

watch this replay yet Kyle you sort of

have an idea of what went down I assume

you read reddit so you know how this

kind of went down I did you all right so

on three two one zero will start the

replay okay three two one zero okay so

when the draft face started I guess

we’ll give you our thoughts behind what

was good / bad we knew that Earthshaker

was probably gonna be very good just

because we felt like fog of war heroes

would be pretty disruptive to the AI and

we felt like echo slam was always gonna

be a somewhat useful ability I think the

issue here is that we thought that necro

was going to be really good mm-hmm so

the boss it kept picking Lich first

apparently it’s priority was highest for

Lich like out of all the heroes in the

pool which was the hero that it had the

most successful

you’re it’s just like the perfect hero

in a lot of ways got like all your

spell’s are useful and theoretically

there’s no carry in the game that can

deal more damage in like that black

window it went some it actually didn’t

go BKB so then we to I grow and we

thought it was broken but it was bad

yeah Kyle well we understood that after

game wow yeah

it just lots of damage like both have

really and it ramps up I was like yeah

so what we understood to about the game

itself was that we did feel like our

shaker was pretty strong but we felt

like gyrocopter and talking to some

other pros after the game about it

we felt that gyro was probably the most

important hero in the pool like I know

that the bot prioritized which the

highest but I think gyro was up there

equal if not even more than that just

because I think that gyro it’s just it’s

a killer and in this pool of heroes

there weren’t a lot of killers because

gyro has solo kill potential on anybody

with homing missile right plus rocket

barrage whereas like if you look at the

heroes that are on the board right now

there’s not a lot of heroes that just go

in and get kills but yeah they also I

think that they identified

because they abuse gyro death profit

like every game they would first to

those heroes whenever available yeah so

then we open up razor we thought that we

just needed hero that was somewhat

independent which you’re gonna find by

the way it was like the worst idea of

all time just because of the way that

the Bob plays the meta and then we had

the last hero pick and if I remember

correctly here we took shadow fiend that

was indeed me that was indeed me okay so

the SF was actually great by the way in

game so it takes line and yeah so this

is the lineup we felt like our laning

phase was okay we just felt like our mid

game should be a lot stronger as well as

our teamfight should just be a lot

stronger fights they never really are

like I don’t know what’s gonna happen I

know they like quad Lane okay so we

smoked up that is like the one thing

that we knew we were gonna do we were

gonna smoke up try to find a fight

wasn’t really sure what rune they were

gonna go to but we felt like maybe we

could just take like a decent level one

because we know that Lich is sacrifice

right and we do have a really strong

level one team with crystal maiden plus

or shaker

stats yeah oh if you notice they have

five couriers so since they have five

couriers I think the bot can’t quite do

individual couriers yet so they’ve got

five couriers and so they kind of

adapted to the meta in that regard

whereas we were playing sort of outdated

dota so they secure top rune so you’re

gonna find this is like the funny the

weirdest part about it is that they

start as like some weird Quadling

collective to begin the game and you

would think like that this should be so

Advent advantageous to us right the fact

that they start like they’re leaning

like this and some weird configuration

like I essentially get a free mid lane

to start like a look at mid the sniper

but double shrapnel is on the ground I

was like sure why not I picked up a soul

pretty early on I kind of knew at that

point like the bot wasn’t perfect when

it came to a mechanical skill like it

made errors and stuff like that but up

at top I don’t know if you caught that

but they just do under the tower level

one to kill merlini yeah they just don’t

form of the tower but like even the Lich

bot bottoms like the weird part too is

that they decide to aggro with two cores

which is not something we see very often

also they’re fantastic it tonight that

is like the one mechanical skill thing

that was absurd apparently is that Ben

had a hard time just getting CS

but you’ll notice in mid lane it wasn’t

that bad

for me whatsoever yeah like they do it

very well in terms of like how all three

heroes hit we also noticed by the way

that they didn’t deal with the pole very

well I’m watching top down so they just

shove up this Lane

but it’s really hard to get players to

coordinate as well as they are because

they get the timing at the same frame

where it’s like so they grab I mean they

grab just another kill they rotate down

the bottom you’ll notice that the bot is

really good at this like it gets away

with a certain amount of HP every single

time then our team rotates the top to

try to get the kill onto the gyro I

think we’re pretty unsuccessful here

actually cuz fogged Reddy uses Fischer

lots just gonna run around pop the self

like middling is great for me though at

this point 14 4 I find a regen rune atop

I’m telling my team like my game at

least is very good to start also we

wanted to know how the bots would deal

with envious so I felt like shadow fiend

was just a good pick we are gonna pick

up shadow blade pretty early on I think

it it just realized like SF is our

shadow fiend is a threatened on the map

at all times cuz if he has if he doesn’t

have boots and I have boots I simply

just walk up raise him twice and then he

dies that’s like the benefit of playing

this matchup

something I should know - is that fogged

had a really hard time coming online for

game number one and two I think part of

it was just like he didn’t really know

where to be because we couldn’t really

kill anybody on the map so the game just

felt really difficult for him

so I tell you I would say you have a big

advantage yeah so you’re gonna realize

that’s the hard part about playing in

CAI is that it does a very good job of

knocking down the early tier ones and

then it takes way too much map control

in my opinion anyways what the fact that

they decide to move everybody down

bottom we actually saw that because they

did it under vision but they ran for the

bounty rune then they said the we

estimate the winning probability the

above 99% at that point our team was

like minor upset about that because it’s

hard not to get tilted by that so Fogg

had a sick block there just continues to

block I think I get stunned here but my

team did a really good job of letting me

get the last hit

they put the sniper so this is something

you just never see in dota where they

just do the the three lane swap like you

will never see a mid just rotate to the

offlane like this but this is really

cool and very effective because razor is

not suited to lane against a sniper

especially in these thus far behind ya

so that’s kind of what I thought too

like I went to bottom by the way they

had the most random century of all time

down here which kind of just made my

Ganga tim knoll they had two centuries

on the guy yeah I do run out of vision

and fog lines a nice fissure to stop

that but it just felt like where

whatever kind of rotation we were making

felt really useless and whatever

rotation they were making felt like it

was just doing too much yeah I I think

yeah so something I noticed here by the

way too that I really want to point out

now that we’re watching the game or

whatever is that their decision to send

the sniper to the offlane so snipers

probably the most vulnerable hero and

typically you would think that sending

them to the offlane or Delaine which is

the longest for him is really unsafe but

just the way that dota is played

nowadays we’re largely avoiding playing

the safe lane and so it should know

where it knows that it’s the safest

place for it to be so fog line is a

really nice fissure I get the double

rays off but they do a really good job

of crowd controlling me we brought

everyone down here for this fight but I

think they were just so much faster

reacting

yeah I thought it was okay yeah so they

brought four heroes down here they send

their death prophet to the offlane and

she just pops this is the tower yeah so

I would argue this now it’s now it’s

really rough because their collapse on

this mid tower next it’s really cool to

notice the Lich Max’s sacrifice so

they’re just abusing their the XP

advantages because you gain experience

when you die creeps so this gets their

very level dependent cores and supports

really like everyone just gets ahead

thanks to this

what’s XP XP they’re up by a little bit

more than 2000 so mid they catch fogged

good envision the line was really

patient he goes down and the top moon

meanders gonna get gone on it’s

absolutely no way for him to survive

this and we didn’t really know that they

were gonna go at the top and mid at the

same time like the thing about dota is

that whenever you represents just like

two or three heroes you want to try to

take the fight where they’ve got the

least amount of people but it felt like

they were just so close at finding each

other and grouping up yeah they actually

completely sandwiched us that was

actually incredible I didn’t even know

that they played it like that we we

talked about how especially in

competitive dota you want to try to

defend that’s your one tower especially

the mid one can’t roll so much of your

jungle but we just we just couldn’t we

just weren’t fast enough and you notice

that as soon as I go bottom the Lich is

already there to meet me and the sad

thing is I just can’t do anything about

it so they rotate more heroes down here

they’re gonna collapse on me they

actually missed the dust but I thought

they hit it and so it pops me out of

inves all my heroes are down here we

were expecting this and we were trying

to get the bait off and we just couldn’t

and you’ll notice that the bots always

feels like it’s in position

sniper doesn’t even die

Oh this was brutal it just feels like

they’re getting the right amount of

Heroes out for all these engagements

well I feel like at this point the game

like it’s like the hero lineups where

you don’t really have a core that can

make plays on the map for you

razor has no game whatsoever and same

with net girl like these guys need to be

ahead really function yeah all in on the

idea the shadow team’s shadow base it’s

gonna like take over the game but they

can just run around in circles than any

combination of two heroes is gonna find

kills and they can just stay on that

they have so much self-sustained there’s

funneling salves back in like the DP

couriers like a mango a raindrop of

clarity in a south

so they just continue to die I guess

what I wanted to ask you about was did

you feel like we just played this very

badly

was there any like stupid obvious things

that we had messed up on low level

mistakes but I remember playing back

with tall fly yeah and we always like

the easiest way to lose games is to try

and defend tier ones with fewer numbers

than your opponents then you have an

extra guy TP n but like you still can’t

turn the fight so now you like lose

three players you lose the tower for

sure and like your TV’s our cooldown

like you just kind of throw away the

game so it’s off to like almost always

better if you can’t bring it if you

can’t be sure you’re gonna win a fight

at a Tier one you just leave a hero to

pull creeps like I would say any core

the razor cm of probably ideal just

because you can angrily waves and the

backup shaker behind and you forced then

four heroes to try and make a dive maybe

it’ll succeed they’ll kill a core but

you don’t lose the tower and like three

more heroes and you’re in your side

lanes your mid lane like your other

heroes are not accelerating but when you

commit to a lane and then who’s the

fighter

yeah so there’s a good point for me to

make there about that I think part of it

you said and people should really

realize like dota has a lot to do with

just like how human behavior works is

like we felt like we could do exactly

what you said which is would have for

three or four years down there one guy

could continue to play greedy which was

me and we would just out greet them

collect the pressure shoves up the lane

while lion is pushing on middle now I

think this concept of like giving a core

like licha solo Lane and like support

gets ahead he’ll he’ll be able to like

rotate lanes and have a massive impact

and it’s far easier for cores to catch

up into a game than a support because

they’re able to like sit in the lane

take CS the supports if you’re behind

and you’re forced to move around the map

like you end up just being lost with no

game sort of like we saw happened fogged

in this game where he’s just like level

2 level 3 and then that decisive fight

that happened in the tier 1 guys he was

just recovering mid cuz he’s like I’m a

level 3 Earthshaker this is miserable

I’m gonna just try and get something

here yeah so what you’re saying

essentially is they sacrifice the early

part of the their core sacrificed the

early part of the game so that everyone

could have a good game collectively yeah

yeah partly because

in addition like it’s just for the

mental aspect of it right these rockets

like come out very very fast pause the

game here yeah okay so there’s two

things that I want to talk about here is

I think that I think it’d be really easy

for me to say that we got mechanically

out skilled which might be true to a

certain extent but I didn’t think here

was the reason we lost like I didn’t

think that it was so there was gonna be

one instance that you see of the hex on

a fogged but even he said I think that

he messed up in that instance but it

never felt like we were because I saw a

lot of people talk about how we were

just mechanically out skilled from the

get-go but I think it’s we should just

like nip that in the bud and say that we

probably just got out strategy yeah I

think they just executed a game plan so

there’s always a there’s always just

like saying that

kuroh has croaky the captain of liquid

that I really fell in love with he said

that somebody’s game has to be bad so

that somebody else’s game can be good

like you have to part of most of dota is

that one person will sacrifice their

success so that everybody else can

succeed oftentimes that’s going to be

either their carry player Mitama men is

going to have a really rough game but by

him having a rough game every other

player on liquid has a very good game

whereas I think in this game part of it

is that none of us wanted to look bad

because of the circumstances we

obviously want to all wanted to play

well individually because like we’re I

mean this is a weird high stakes game

right we still want to show up and play

and so I think especially for myself if

I’m just admitting it like I was focused

too much on like how well I was doing

like as long as I was getting a good

game I felt like I was gonna be able to

carry and you’ll notice that I am the

highest love

I’ve got the highest net worth like my

game went excellently and it did not

matter even in the least yeah I think

everybody’s like had a massive impact in

this game yes I think the Lich following

SF from lane to Lane is very interesting

you don’t want to sit in the lane yeah

by default and you also can’t pressure

tower could be skilled armor at level 4

so you just you just sad the only way to

really respond to that would be to like

set up moves on the Lich but this

strategy is something I don’t think any

of you have ever encountered in the

combined like 30,000 games probably

played yeah so that that’s something I

realized too is that it felt really

weird when I was playing it in game it

felt like for whatever reason and

obviously I know this now watching this

game but it feels like in game that no

matter what moved that I would normally

make that would likely pay off just

didn’t it was like I would go to one

tower I’d go top I’d pressure out the

lane and then there would just be a lich

there and I couldn’t dive him I just not

really scared at all times whereas most

human players were just kind of a band

in that area yeah and the rest of the

team would farm and someone would get

picked off that leads to a really cool

point like dota

I think movement is something that’s

under aided by like the layman as to its

importance on a game and it’s very hard

to understand or explain because it’s

like a dance or if you miss one step

you’re gonna miss the next four so just

the minutiae of what they’re doing like

who’s rotating to what lane when they

teleport like how they rotate across the

map it’s it’s very smart and that’s um

there’s a Eevee like expected value is

like a poker term that a lot of people

use their movements are very very strong

I think the mid dive is a perfect

example where they get to kill top and

then they’re collapsing mid as five and

the worst-case scenario for them is

they’re gonna collect a support and take

out the most crucial of your towers by

like before ten minutes

and that’s something that requires like

a lot more coordination then people

would think because it’s very

commonplace for as you’re saying you

know someone might just want to push top

you’ll never see people like leave free

lanes at times and pubs specifically

because it feels bad you want to just

keep accelerating get yourself further

ahead in the game and part of why dota

at its core is a very captain and

leadership based game is because you

need to have one plan that five people

are executing if you’re going to be the

best I think if you look at the top

teams that we have they all like kuroky

is a great example of an incredibly

strong captain his team execute a game

plan and then they thrive yeah I think

part of the problem here is okay so

there is one moment in this game where I

felt like man no human player would be

able to make that play if I’m just

honest like the hex on the fog but it

shouldn’t have come to this point where

we’re down 6000 gold at 18 minutes to

begin with I don’t know I this this game

felt really weird because normally if

I’m playing a hero like shadow fiend I

can use my two nukes I can double raise

the wave out I can put pressure on a

tower then what’ll end up happening is

that people that’s what allows that’s

what forces people to split up like

people don’t really understand this but

when you push in waves what it does is

you get it closer that’s our somebody

responds by teleporting up there and

then it just opens up the other four

heroes on the map because they’re not

coordinated anymore they it slows down

the game plan it makes it so that

everyone’s like well what now one guy

left because you’re not gonna send four

heroes up there you’re just gonna send

one guy and then everyone on the map

should be susceptible to getting killed

there should be some sort of pressure

being laid out on the map but I felt

like that the AI was just really good at

grouping up they would send one hero it

was almost always the Lich to slow me

down then he as soon as I was gone

because eventually I’m not just gonna

stand up there he would just leave join

up for the rest of his team and they

would just continue to put pressure on

our towers yeah I think the part of this

game if you’re gonna review this for

like a competitive standpoint like what

did we do wrong it’s it’s all about the

tier ones I think the death

profit-taking the tier one top for free

while losing three heroes and Tier one

bottom then you get sandwiched me

like at that point there isn’t really

much for you to do you’re relying on the

enemies to make mistakes to win the game

but they’re in the driver’s seat and

that’s something uh it’s very important

in dota is tempo control and they have

the ability to make moves and thanks to

their draft like they have so much draw

damage

there’s no save for any of your heroes

like if someone gets stunned or hexed

even just jewels in the face like you

have rocket chases you like you actually

just die

all five of their heroes can set up

kills and the rest of the team is very

adapted just following up and ensuring

that they landed and they’re always on

map which is something that I think is a

distinct advantage they have over you

where they’re just doing much better

with courier usage and highly

prioritizing regen do you want to

continue I don’t know how much more of

this game is honestly useful to watch at

this point it just comes out of the fact

that we couldn’t hold high ground they

were just a little bit too far ahead and

then we get double racks in the game is

just sort of over probably just skip

ahead to game number three sure okay

okay what was really funny is after game

one that happened we were just like they

were they were like okay you get to

draft your heroes and then we just were

like somehow we came to the exact

conclusion that we should just steal the

bots lineup okay

that we just came like every time like

hero after here and we’re like guys Lich

looks like a really good hero let’s play

it then it was like wait you know what

gyro seemed really opie and then we just

kept stealing the lineup and then we

last picked necro because they had three

four melee heroes and an axe in his

friend so it just seemed like a really

free necro game yeah III think the gyro

one thing I would say are we are you

watching the game at all

are we just talking about this but I’m

not sure I recovery is back for that

reason I think we’ll see it at TI and

this game kind of demonstrates why cuz

it’s just so easy to play around it it

feels like the hero is never really

doing something wrong if you show up in

a lane to try and find a kill you’re

probably best you’re great at that if

you want a flash farm or take stacks you

can do that like you’ve so many options

and part of what makes notice of

difficult and complex is that at every

facet of the game there are so many

options

decisions that you could be making uh

you could be stacking you can be farming

you can be setting up a gank you could

be positioning defensively yada yada

yada and you’re all it’s not just your

enemies that are important it’s your own

teammates what are they doing how are

they playing the game and it’s just it’s

just so hard to do all these things

correctly I don’t know I’m watching the

start of this game there quad laning

bottom and like interesting yeah okay so

we figured that this actually didn’t

work because they were missing a crucial

element that they had in the previous

games that we now had which was just the

ability to kill people

yeah like the gyrocopter and all this

stuff made it just so easy to get kills

and I think that’s like a really good

point that’s the issue with the razor

necro where once they’re behind they

have no method of gaining of getting

kills so their only option is to try and

recover and farm the map and when the

enemy team is ahead and more adept at

finding kills like you just end up

feeding at some point that’s what

happened I also think you played this a

much better where you didn’t just

abandon lanes you keep someone mid at

all times it’s your net grow you don’t

feed at this like initial dive you just

pull the creeps away it’s no big deal

that one death under Tower I think of

the lion like that’s good for you guys

in the grand scheme of things because he

got a full XP off the wave and it takes

so much resources for them to so many

resources for them to complete that die

yeah I’m at 3:40 in game but what we

realized I was pretty interesting about

this game too is that they killed moon

and they just kept killing him like they

did everything in their power to ruin

his game more or less then they went for

this dive at Tom at 4 minutes and they

actually got more kills than I feel like

they should have what the type of lineup

that they had like the score right now

is 4 to 7 despite them having the most

garbage lineup I’ve ever seen in dota 2

yeah

it’s like damage cheap these are nice to

me trying to see like what their IM

decisions are they don’t make sense they

prioritize boots on like all their

heroes which is interesting like first

item on the Clark Sven and axe after

their initial no ability to move around

map yeah although this is much as

simpler if you have resources at all

times thanks to a free courier like just

funneling you regen yeah it’s an easier

decision to make yeah that was the one

that was the one knock on the body felt

is that the reagent game felts a little

bit different it did change I did feel

like it changed them at a more than it

yeah I still feel like if I’m being dead

honest like it’s easy for me to say that

but we did just get out moved her on the

map the first game you guys like I it

was just really bad the first eight

minutes like you lost the game it

doesn’t matter if you recovered like

learn from it because at that point like

they really did have a 99% chance of

winning the game yeah especially

considering that they weren’t gonna make

like those critical errors because they

know how to close a game but that’s what

separates good from great teams and what

you’ll see at this ti we’re like the

liquids if you give them the advantage

that the human team did in that first

game like that’s it like they’re gonna

collect that and they’re gonna take a

free win dota is very much like an easy

game to finish when you’re in a position

like to win it’s sort of like just not

crashing on the last lap when you’ve got

you know the quarter-mile lead at the

last leg at Daytona like you just have

to not crash and they do not yeah what

are these wards they double warded by

accident in this bottom lane yeah so

they they sort of learn from that in

game the spent suicides to kill the tier

two later on but you’ll notice in this

game especially like with how easy mid

was because they just didn’t send

anybody MIT this time around they didn’t

have their what I noticed that was

really different is because they don’t

have the Lich to just sit there and

defend the tower they don’t have

something that just pulls it back in and

plays defense

so no one really wanted to be there on

their team yeah and look now you can

just do exactly what they didn’t game on

you’re just here with three chords that

are incredibly strong lion runs up like

there’s nothing there’s nothing you can

really do here at team bot

test this power push yeah that’s uh we

just essentially sold their strategy and

we sent our own list on the bottom but

they just dome

but it doesn’t really matter at this

point I felt like this game was like

much easier to play yeah

and I see two heroes up at top I think I

was the one that teleported here if I

remember correctly which I was don’t a

memory still good because I felt I just

felt like I was unkillable in this game

like it was my job to be the one to be

up here to defend this tower yeah I

would agree you you’re the one that

wants to be douve and then it’s so easy

for your team to play around yeah and

that’s exactly what’s happening right

now you’ll see fog comes in completely

whoops the stun but it doesn’t really

matter and that that’s what I would have

liked to see in Game one but it’s much

more difficult this game it’s as Fenton

acts in a recap in’ if the gank is

played out accordingly where you bait

the hero that’s strongest he just kills

time kills time his supports can come in

and now you’ve just completely

overextended on the open AI team and

suddenly you’re in trouble and in the

meantime you were farming to Lane style

push that bottom D be pushed out mid

he’s recovering final point on the first

game is something else we want to bring

up was the sniper going top brilliant I

think that’s something else we might see