All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg - E21: Media misalignment, subjects controlling narratives & more with bestie guestie Draymond Green

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We’re dropping what up?

The track I mean,

I am recording testing and testing my recording and here me

bet you know, but here we go in three two

your winners bride

raing man v insects

And it said we open source it to the fans and they’ve just gone crazy with it.

Love you insects.

Queen of quinoa.

Hey, everybody.

It’s the all in podcast.

Wet your beak.

Young Spielberg coming at you on a Friday morning afternoon.

Draft time.

The number 11 podcast in the world.

It’s the all in podcast with the queen of quinoa, David Friedberg.

Rain man himself with his hot new track from young Spielberg.

I am the rain man, David Sachs.

And of course, wetting his beak.


Absolute dictator.

Wetting his beak with his merch.

Merch game is strong.

Chamath, Polly, Hoppa, Tia.

How’s everybody doing on the backs of us becoming the number 11 podcast in the world?

Really good.



Look at that enthusiasm.

Really great.

No, I think we had an intermittent.

Saksipu is not apparently, you know, with with all these with all his week beak wedding,

he hasn’t had time to pay the Internet bill.

You can go ahead and upgrade your DSL from from 56 kilobits.

I think you can afford it.

OK, he’s hit his bandwidth limit because he was watching himself on Tucker over and over

again this morning.

I’m sorry.

I’m sorry.

I do.

I do need to say this, that yesterday we do have firsthand evidence that David Sachs,

after appearing on Tucker Carlson, then spent the next hour watching himself appear on Tucker


Literally got up from the poker table.

My gosh.

Refused to play poker with his besties because he had to watch himself on less than six times

on Tucker.

Oh my gosh.

No, it must have been 20, 30 times.

No, no headphones.

Just listening to the iPhone, looking at it.

Holding it up to his ear just so he doesn’t miss a word, optimizing his performance.

What was it like to go on Fox News?

Was this a dream for you, Sachs?

Is this a, is this a bucket list?

See, Jason, this is why you’re such a scumbag.

Because I, I asked you guys, I said, hey, like Tucker shows invited me on.

Should I go?

You know, and, and you guys are like, yeah, yeah, it’ll be great for ratings for the pod.

You should definitely do it.

And then after I do it, the first thing you guys say when I walk in the room is, oh my

God, you went on Tucker.

How right wing are you?

Do you realize that all your deal flow just got canceled?

Yum, yum.

I’m going to get all your deals now.

By the way, that was the funniest part.

Jason had premeditated basically getting you to appear on Tucker so as to impugn you and

destroy you.

Jake goes, oh, I’m going to get all your deals now.

Yum, yum.

All is fair when it comes to early stage deal flow.


And then he starts tweeting, you know, he’s like the first one to show a photo of me split

screen with Tucker.


I was waiting.

I was, I was literally watching it.

It’s time for the great takedown.

Actually you did, in all seriousness, you did great.

Um, I think it was worth doing and he framed it as, I don’t know if people saw it.

You can look up Tucker Carlson, Bestie, David Sachs.

It’ll come up number one.

And, um, he said you were, um, essentially taking a very liberal, classic liberal point

of view.

So he basically set the stage for you to not be a far right wing nut case.

You were actually defending liberal principles of people should have the ability to have

freedom of speech.

Why don’t you talk about what it was like?


I mean, so, so you’re right.

I mean, he made the connection and the comparison to net, uh, Hentoff, who was like the famous

ACLU free speech lawyer.

And, uh, and I really appreciated that because I do very much see myself in that mold of,

uh, of somebody like Hentoff.

Um, he wrote a book called, uh, free speech for me, but not for the, um, sort of a famous

line, uh, because everybody wants free speech for themselves and their allies, but they

want to deny it to people they disagree with.

And, you know, they never seem to realize that censorship is a problem until it gets

turned against them.

And so, you know, the point I made about the, these Reddit kids who are censored is that

look, this, this was not what they, there was some raunchy speech in their message board.

Uh, we all know that, but it was no different than any trading floor trading pit or boiler

room on wall street.


It’s the same kind of language yet they were taken down and censored by discord for, for

hate speech.


Because they became very threatening to, you know, powerful insiders.

And, um, you know, but how many of those, those Reddit kids, uh, saw it as a problem

when, you know, Trump or his supporters got or parlor got de-platformed a few weeks ago,

they could never have imagined that that same censorship principle could ever get turned

against them.

And, um, and so we all have a blind spot towards censorship when we like the results.

And, you know, Hentoff’s point is always, look, it’s not about the results.

It’s about who are you giving the power to, to, to censor to.

And that’s what you have to be really careful of.

In relation to that, how delightful has it been to not have Trump on Twitter, putting

aside, you know, censorship, even for you as a Republican, a conservative, but liberal

socially, I will note, uh, you’re very liberal socially.

You’re live and let live, uh, pro LBGTQ, of course.

Uh, and, but to not have Trump on Twitter has been all that cognitive space has come


We get it all back.


Silence is, is, is bliss.

What did you guys think?

What did you guys think about, um, what is your name?

Marjorie blah, blah, blah, green, who just got completely censored.

What, what exactly happened?


Sax is that censorship.


If you’re a crazy loon who believes that was a false flag.

What do we do there?

That’s not, that’s not censorship.

It’s just, she got censored, I guess.

Um, because her colleagues thought she was out of line.

That’s okay.

I mean, if her colleagues want to vote for that, that’s fine.

So she can still say crazy stuff.

You just can’t do it and have this certain job.


I mean, look, let, let’s face it when, when politicians say crazy stuff and it helps the

other side.

I mean, you know, Marjorie green or whatever, her censorship, who does that help?

It helps the Democrats.

Um, you know, quite frankly, uh, does Trump being off Twitter, uh, does that really help


I don’t think so.

I mean, um, you know, you could argue that, that Biden or, or that Trump is the one unifying

opposition to Trump is the one unifying force in the democratic coalition.

So the, the, the more Trump is out there, the, the more it bonds the democratic coalition


Um, so yeah, I mean, censorship has this way of like backfiring and, uh, you can’t just

look at it in terms of narrow, short-term political results.

Speaking of censorship, I want to get your take on something else.

I think these last two weeks have been a complete sea change in venture capital.

And let me give you the setup.

It’s all of a sudden seemed like, um, there has been a decision that’s been made where

the ecosystem of companies will basically use their own platforms and their own mediums

to completely control the narrative and the dissemination of information about them.

That the media in the effort of company building, um, may have taken a big step back.

Um, you know, I think, uh, the whole sort of like thing on clubhouse was really interesting.

I think, uh, this guy who just joined Andreessen Horowitz, um, who actually hosts a show on

clubhouse is really interesting.

Um, I think there’s some like really interesting emerging managers who just have these incredibly

different ways of showing around his name.

Um, he’s been hosting good times at 11, 10 or 11 PM every night on clubhouse.

Mark Andreessen comes to it every night.

And of course, Elon came interviewed Vlad.

And then last night Zuckerberg showed up, uh, in order to get the blueprints for clubhouse

to then put it into Instagram and Facebook.

But what do you guys, what do you guys think of sort of like this entire sector of the

economy basically trying to, I guess, organize an end around traditional media?

It doesn’t seem like it’s just venture, right?

I mean, look at, look at Trump.

You know, he avoided having the traditional press conference as the, the, the channel

for dissemination of his point of view and communication of his, uh, objectives.

And he went on Twitter every day and he just tweeted.

Um, and I think, you know, anyone who’s been part of a business or an operation that’s

had to deal with, you know, media gathering facts that, uh, that you don’t consider to

be true and you can’t really counter their point and then they publish and it’s static

and it’s out there.

Um, you are frustrated and in the, in the world that we have today, which has many alternatives

for going direct to our customer and going direct to our audience through social media

and having control over that message.

Uh, it’s appealing to make the switch away from traditional PR and going to social.

I mean, Chamath, you don’t put out press releases.

You go on Twitter and you make a statement about what your intentions are and you publish

your one pagers.

And I feel like everyone’s trying to do this.

And there’s all this like trend at big companies now too, which is how do you develop a quote

unquote social media presence?

You can speak directly to your audience and your customers without having to go through

the press.

I find it very hard, um, to get the point across, um, by going through traditional media.

It’s not that, it’s not that it can’t be done, but I find it harder and harder.

And the reason is because they’re in such a ferocious competition with social media.

And so they have to be just as click oriented and newsworthy, um, as the next best tweet

that’s, that’s trending at that time.

So it’s, it’s an almost impossible task.

Well, Naval, Naval had a great line about this, which I think he tweeted a long time

ago, which is that the internet commoditized the reporting of facts.

And so at that point, the, the traditional media went wholesale into opinions, into opinions.

And so now they all have an agenda of some kind.

And especially the tech press, their agenda basically is hatred of tech.

I mean, they hate the people they’re reporting on.

I mean, Jake, how you know this, right?


I mean, having been a journalist in this, I, it’s really interesting to hear your opinions.

And if you look at trust among, uh, Republicans, all time low, uh, in the press and then just

all Americans don’t trust the press right now, they think there’s hidden agendas and

it really is a confluence of events.

What happened was the internet caused, um, the revenue streams of the press to get just

violently compressed or eliminated.

So, you know, you had Craigslist take the classified business, Google and Facebook took

the ad business and subscriptions, Netflix, Spotify, et cetera.

So you have all that revenue is gone.

And what that meant was they, uh, didn’t have the resources to do fact checking.

And then the publishing schedule because of blogging, which I was involved in required

that people file two, three, four times a day just to keep up.

And so when you’re filing even just twice a day, there is no time to get quotes from

the subjects.

So we have all, as people who are subjects had quotes, uh, attributed to us that were

like, where did you pull that quote from?

I’m like, Oh, three years ago you said this or whatever.

And then you don’t even know you’re going to be in the story.

Like the hit piece they did on you, Chamath, some sports writer and SF gate did some hit

piece on Chamath.

Did they ever call you?

Did they ever say, would you like to respond to this?

That’s how it used to work.

That’s what you, that’s what you learn when you get a degree in journalism, right?

You call the subject you interview.

Of course.

And it used to be you filed once every two weeks, or maybe if you were in a weekly news,

a news, like a news week or a business week, you filed once a week.

Magazines you filed once or twice per episode per issue, or maybe once every other issue

or feature writer.

Now they have to, they have to publish so much.

By the way, Jason, you said something.

They don’t do any fact checking.

You said something really, really important.

It’s the craziest thing where these guys will not even call you and say, here’s what

we’re running, or here’s what we’re going to say.

Do you want to work through this with us?

Do you want to tell us, are there any inaccuracies?

We’re really seeking the truth.

Nobody’s really seeking the truth.

They’re seeking clicks.


And so here’s what happens.


The, your salary is now determined by your number of followers on Twitter, as is your

book deal.

And your substack then becomes your negotiating position versus your existing publication.

So someone like Kara Swishers, who is not full-time at the New York Times, probably

makes a half million or a million dollars a year doing her podcast with them in the

editorial page.

I would say somewhere between 500K and a million.

All the other writers there are looking at other people who’ve gotten significant followings

and saying, I have to get a big following.

How do you get a big following?

Well, Sax figured that out.

He wasn’t, didn’t have a huge following on Twitter in the last couple of months, but

since we did the podcast, Sax started having an opinion and picking a side and really owning

his opinion.

And what happened?

Massive engagement.

But in fairness, and also being super, and super intelligent and thoughtful about it.

Of course.

But anybody picking a side gets rewarded.

And if you go down the middle, you don’t get rewarded.

Because people go, that makes sense.

You’re not outraged.

But then I think that people, then people should just be using facts as a jumping off

point, as opposed to like weaving it into the narrative so that other folks get confused.

Meaning, you know, it used to be the case that a newspaper has an opinion page.

Well, no, now the whole newspaper is opinions.


Because the facts you can just get from the AP, right?

Like there’s no point calling the New York Times to figure out what the hell is going

on in the world.

Really what they should be doing is deep analysis.


Like that New York Times article that you brought up a couple of weeks ago, Chamath,

that we talked about on the pod was about the trust fund kids who are giving away all

their money.

You know, it wasn’t an analysis of how many people with this amount of wealth are giving

away their money.

It was anecdotes to make the case that this is the storyline that they kind of wanted

to progress.

And, you know, that is, I think, where you’re able to kind of stay within the bounds of

traditional journalism, but still, you know, get a narrative across that is a bit sensational

and it is a bit kind of, you know, inspiring.

And Friedberg, all you need to do, having been on the inside of these discussions is

when you have one person, it’s a profile, as an example.

When you have two, it’s still a kind of a profile with an example.

But once you get to three, you got a trend piece.

And so what your editors say to you is, if you can get me a third person who’s a trust

fund kid, now we got a trend piece and we’re in the clear.

So let’s do that and do the anecdotes instead of actual research, which then takes time

and resources.

And if you look what Andreessen Horowitz has specifically done with Clubhouse is, and it’s

really freaked out some New York Times reporters, I won’t say which ones, because every time

I mentioned this one reporter, she pulls the female reporter card and she pulled it last

night where she said, I’m a female reporter, I can block Mark Andreessen.

I’m not going to say who it is because she gets really upset.

No, no, no.

It’s Taylor Lawrence.

But she, I mean, she, yeah, she tweeted it.

So I don’t think she’s hiding from it.

She does it to me.

And I didn’t want to bring up her name.

She put it in the public.

Because now bringing up her name, she will, I guarantee you, tweet, I am being harassed

by Jason Calacanis because I’m a woman.

She’s saying that Mark Andreessen and Andreessen Horowitz blocked her from their Clubhouse


When you’re blocked from a Clubhouse room, you don’t get access.

So she said, I’m going to make my own shadow account.

She did make a puppet account.

Now she’s listening in.

And she got upset at me because I told people in a room, hey, there’s a New York Times

reporter in the room.

Just be careful because this could wind up in print.

She called that harassment and gender-based harassment.

And the thing they’re complaining about now is that all of us are trying to go around

them and just tell our stories directly.

And so they’re all enraged.

They’re saying, how dare Mark Andreessen or A16Z not talk to us?

It’s like, well, why should they?

I mean, my experience with the press has been that about 75% of the time when they ask me

for comment on something, it ends up being a hit piece.

Maybe not on me, but on something I care about.

And they twist what you say or take one little quote out of context to support the article.

And you end up giving credence to an article that you completely disagree with.

And so all of us have to stop taking those calls.

I mean, we just know.

We just know there’s such an agenda behind most of these calls that we just don’t take

them anymore.


That’s why we’re going direct.


I’ll say one thing about Taylor Lawrence.

I’ve learned a lot because I feel like being 44, I’m kind of out of the know.


And I’ve learned a lot because she has her finger on the pulse.

I mean, it’s been really fun reading her stuff.

The other thing I’ll say is on the Andreessen thing, I think what they have finally stumbled

into, I remember when Andreessen started about a year before I started Social Capital.

And I remember the whole push was multi-services, right?

And they were going to be recruiting and sales and this and that.

I suspect that all of that was kind of like pretty meager ROI and not that it just burned

a ton of fees.

But I think this thing that they’re doing is really smart because if they effectively

build their own distribution arm through newsletters, substack, podcasts, clubhouse shows, whatever,

that’s a force to be reckoned with because then if you’re a venture investor, you either

have to be like them with their own version, in which case the brand of Andreessen really

matters, or you’re on this path of where the trend of venture is already going, which is

solo GPs and individual people are the brands.

And there’s going to be very little space in the middle.

So, for example, I do think that the All In podcast helps, for example, David in Craft

or Jason Yu in Launch.

Oh, the syndicate is going crazy.

And you guys also stand alone as individuals.

But if you’re a traditional firm, pick your organization, which neither has brands nor

has distribution.

What are you doing?

Well, you’re probably forced to just pay the highest price.

And so those returns for those folks in the middle get really bad, I think, over time.

And you at some point have to decide, are you an individual person?

And there’s like some amazing up and coming GPs.

We know them, Lockheed Groom, folks like that.

Or are you Andreessen Horowitz with this massive distribution?

I mean, and now we have to just, I think, face the reality that we are in competition.

And I think that’s what is making the press even more.

That’s what makes the situation more complicated.

I’m not saying the press is targeting people they consider competitive, but the press is

not getting Vlad, Elon or Zuck for interviews.

But because Marc Andreessen has, you know, Clubhouse now, they put themselves on the

suggested follower list, just like Twitter put Om, Kara Swisher and some other journalists

on the suggested follower list for Twitter.

What that was, was it was payment, basically, like a million followers.

Now Andreessen has a million followers, Balaji, all these folks from Andreessen, I believe,

have like a million followers.

So the press is complaining about that as well, because they can then dominate them

in terms of getting subjects.

They’ve lost the subjects.

None of us get on the phone with the press, with very few exceptions.

And where is Sway or Vox or Ezra Klein when compared to our podcast?


Like we’re right up there with them, if not ahead of them.

I mean, we’re the number one tech podcast.

So it’s pretty crazy when you think about how much their world has changed.

And now they’re directly in competition with Andreessen Horowitz, all in podcast, you know,

pick the firm doing a venture thing.

And that’s going to make this even more contentious, I predict.


I totally agree with that.

But I also, I do think fundamentally that all of us wouldn’t have felt the same need

to go around them if we didn’t feel that there was such a strong agenda.

Just to bring what, have you guys heard of gel man amnesia effect?



So Michael Crichton, you know, who wrote Dress Park and like a true polymath and genius,



Airframe, very good, by the way.

I mean, so many brilliant things.

He was even a Hollywood director, true multi-talented guy.

Anyway, he described the gel man amnesia effect as follows.

He says, you open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well.

So in this case, it was a physics paper on gel man.


Oh, I do know this.



He says, you read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding

of either the facts or the issues.

The error in the article is so wrong.

It actually presents the story backwards, reversing cause and effect.

I call these the wet streets cause rain stories.

The paper is full of them.


In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story,

but then you turn the page to some other section, to national international affairs, and you

read the rest of the paper as if it was somehow more accurate.


You turn the page and forget what you know, which is that the journalist gets so much


And I think, you know, and all of us kind of suffer from gel man amnesia sometimes because

we still, I think, take, when we read something in the paper, we take it at face value.

And I think, but we all know that when it comes to tech reporting or whatever, there’s

so much misinformation that gets put out by these official channels.

And I think at the end of the day, what’s happening now with these and run around the

traditional media, it’s all a response to gel man amnesia.

I think it’s a problem of complexity.

You know, I, I remember years ago I would, when I was younger, I would read the paper

or read magazines about science and engineering.

And I was, you know, really interested in these topics.

And it was only years later when I actually realized how wrong so many of those articles

were as I started to read the original scientific research papers.

But it takes a skillset and it takes a significant amount more time to really go into depth into

those papers and to actually read them.

The same is true, as you point out with like, you know, geopolitical issues, like the complexity

of what goes on.


Here’s what I learned when I was a journalist, we would have about 10 to 20% of the information

about what occurred when we’ve published our first story.

And then maybe every subsequent follow up, we get another 10%, which means if we were

really hooked into a story, and we did five versions of that story, we might get to 40%,

50% understanding.

Whereas when the four of us are doing a deal, and then you see this impact, you know, the

press is getting it completely wrong.

And that was fine.

If you felt the press was fair, right.

But that’s what’s happening is now there, there’s a distinct feeling with subjects that

they’re being treated unfairly.

And when I do, when somebody connects to me, and they say, Hey, can you comment on Robin

or whatever?

I said, I can’t.

But I do have a great story for you about a world positive startup.

And I kept doing this with Teddy, who kept asking me to give information on friends of

mine, you know, the guy from Rico to whatever, who covers like philanthropy.

And every time they contact me, I say, Yeah, you know, I can’t comment on that.

But you can talk to the founder.

But I have three world positive stories.

Are you interested in any of them?

And I just do that kind of to troll them.

And they’ve never in five years taken me up on profiling a world positive.

So if the press wants to turn this around, a very simple solution is one for you, one

of your hate stories.

So if you for every time you want to take down a company, maybe write about one company

that’s doing something good.

There’s some company doing something in carbon sequestering right now, that is super valid

and world positive, write about it.

And the only time they write about Tesla is when Elon trips or, you know, something, somebody

dies in a car, or they write about Uber, because of some tragedy.

Sorry, I just want to say, like, Jason, like, just going back a second, like, your point

is one about bias, which is, you know, creating sensationalism, sell stories, it’s what consumers

want to consume, at the end of the day.

So there’s certainly, you know, a market driven model there.

The point I was trying to make earlier, there’s also a separate problem around complexity,

which is complex issues take time and take depth to truly understand.

And so to really understand what’s going on in the Middle East, or what’s going on inside

of a company like Facebook requires more than a five paragraph journal article, it

requires some hours of conversation and dialogue.

And I think, by the way, the craving for that depth, which delivers truth and understanding

is what, you know, podcasts can provide and Clubhouse is providing long form content that

allows you to go into the nuance and into the texture and into the depth of what’s going

on in the world, as opposed to having the five paragraph littered with ads, BuzzFeed

article that says something sensational, but it simplifies something to the point that

it’s often wrong, or completely misses the real depth of what’s going on.

And, you know, it’s like, and I think that I think they’re both they’re both they’re

both kind of playing into each other.

And then I want to give a prediction.

They’re both what you’re describing are both issues.

And I think they’re related in the following sense that if you were to go to like any of

these reporters, like the people that J. Cal mentioned a couple of names, okay, if you

were to filter their bylines, and see all of their not not one story, but look at like,

all of the headlines for all their stories over, say, the past year, you will definitely

see a trend, they will, they will all have, you know, like negative.

For certain reporters, it’ll be 100% negative about tech 0%.

I mean, Aaron Griffin, I think is the reporter who’s one of the top tech reporters at the

New York Times.

It’s just like, Coinbase, Coinbase away.

Yeah, exactly.

So when’s the last time they wrote a positive story.

So there is this huge agenda there.

And, and I think it prevents people from getting into the complexity, because it’s a lot easier

to write, you know, that

prediction, and I’m gonna make a bold prediction here, the media companies are gonna, you know,

they’re obviously picking a side, they obviously went subscription, now they’re dealing with

Substack, Clubhouse, podcasts, all chipping away.

I think what’s going to happen is, you’re going to see media brands built around certain

podcasts, and they’re going to work subject first.

In other words, the subject of the story are going to create media property.

So if you look at what we’ve done with all in, and obviously, I have this week in startups,

if we did the Friedberg on science podcast, and it was just Friedberg explaining a science


And then we did Chamath on public markets.

And then we did Sachs on, you know, alt-right conspiracy theories.

And we just had five pods.

Or it could be something else.

I don’t know, guns.

You know, whatever, I don’t know.


I don’t know what Sachs is into, but you know.

But no, Sachs could do something on SAS.

So Sachs on SAS, Friedberg on science, Chamath on thirst traps.

Then we have all in.

That’s five, five full pods of an hour and a half each.

If each of you did your own pod, and I have my pod, and we made the all in network, the

all in news network, I guarantee you we would be within five years, you know, right up there

with CNN and MSNBC.

Well, one thing that Jason and I have been toying with now is I really do want to start

a Twitch channel.

And I think part of why is I’d like to really actually have more conversations about, you

know, companies and stocks and.

With youth.

With the youth.

Yeah, with the youth and like, you know, really get into the details.

And like also when we, you know, partner with a company, bring them on the show so that

we can spend an hour or two and talk about things in detail.

It’s totally lost.

And the crazy thing that I realized for me is near to your point, Jason, like, you know,

we have enough distribution now where millions of people can see it.

And if that has real impact, because, you know, you can allow people to judge.

And I’m not necessarily saying we’re better or worse than anybody else.

But if we’re not using it for the express purpose of selling ads necessarily and getting

paid, I do think there’s a better likelihood that it’s that the outcome is better.

Well, I mean, a big part of the success of this has been the banning of guests and the

banning of banning of ads and banning of ads.

People really have responded to that.

And I think if we put the Twitch channel up and we just throw in all and throw in this

week in startups, and then, you know, a sacks, you know, point counterpoint show, and I’m

being sincere, Friedberg, just Friedberg on science.

And, you know, that’s five shows.

And we just say every Friday, there’s going to be five shows like this is your weekend

and we’re going to loop it and there’ll be a Q&A, I guarantee you, we could get five

other besties to do shows, you know, and we would

Didn’t you guys originally like, so for the audience that doesn’t know this, originally

the all in podcast was Chamath and Jason, they were talking about doing a show together.

And then COVID hit.

And they, I think you guys asked me on the pod zero to talk about COVID stuff.

But what was the original goal you guys had, you know, Chamath, isn’t that what you wanted

to do originally was to have kind of a direct audience and a direct conversation about,

you know, whatever it is you wanted to talk about, where you could have this kind of long

form dialogue.

You know, what did you guys, why did you guys want to do it in the first place?

I mean, wasn’t that kind of the idea?

I’ll tell you what, what sort of like my general viewpoint is, which is that, like, we are

atomizing our affinity.

So I think that like, we’ve gone from believing in institutions.

And now I think we fundamentally mistrust institutions.

Then we spent 30 or 40 years believing in companies.

And now I think we basically don’t believe in companies anymore.

And now we’re sort of at the at the at the bleeding edge of what where belief and trust

exists, which is at an individual person level, ownership, ownership.

So so like, you know, I and I think that when an individual has the potential to not just

be about something for themselves, but also for themes that other people care about, that’s

when you get real heat.

And obviously, the most impressive example of that is Elon, because, you know, he represents

exploration, engineering, science, climate change, you know, memes, all of this stuff.

Not really.

I think the other things are really what matters.


And so and so what it shows people is like, I just want to find affinity around a few

key people.

And what he is, is not the end state.

He’s the beginning of the beginning.


So what’s going to happen is all of us will say, I don’t trust institutions.

So whatever they put out is just going to be corpo.

I don’t trust companies, what they say is going to be corpo.

I’m going to take my best shot at finding folks that I think are real.


And I’m just going to get that.

That’s the thing.

That’s why I wanted to do this with Jason.

And then with the four of us, I think what happened almost accidentally is, it’s like

a real plurality of views.

And, and you don’t have to agree with all of us.

And frankly, no, nobody does.

And we don’t generally agree 100%.

But I think that’s what’s happening.

So I think we’re another much smaller than Elon, but another example of, you’re going

to want to find your own truth tellers, folks that you will get behind.

And I think that business people, that’s where they’re going to emerge.

Because if you look at that first generation of star, Kim Kardashian, the Kanye West of

the world, that’s arcing.

Then people went to like the Mr. Beasts and that’s still building.

So you have the business celebrity building, you have sort of next generation celebrity


And I think that’s where it’s going.

Let me just ask you guys one question, because I think the intention with journalists was

kind of to be arbiters of the truth or discover as a fact and to deliver that fact to their


And when you have this direct relationship between the source and the audience, as you

do through social media and Twitter and whatnot, there isn’t an arbiter, there isn’t a third


And everything that then is said by the source is taken at face value.

How does that play out in a world where, you know, Trump may say things like, hey, there’s

election fraud when the facts don’t line up.

And now you have this ability to not have an arbiter.

And these people, anyone that now has a direct relationship with a large audience can say

anything they want and kind of drive large change without those things necessarily being

rooted in some, you know, relative kind of objective sense.

Well, I mean, I think it’s a marketplace of ideas and everybody’s competing.

And the answer to bad speech or bad ideas is more speech and better ideas.

And I mean, that’s the reality is it is very frustrating to see, you know, people propagating

things that aren’t true.

However, none of us has a monopoly on the truth.

We can’t say for sure what it is.

And so, we arrive at the truth through sort of a free marketplace of ideas.

There is no better solution than that.

You know, there is no magical way to entrust a small elite of people with, you know, the

right to censor and tell us what the truth is without essentially, you know, creating

a worse situation.

And, you know, that’s the fundamental problem.

So, yeah, look, we’re going to we’re going to this era in which there is no, you know,

if you go back like 50 years ago, you had Walter Cronkite saying and that’s the way

it is.

Everyone believed him.

And then the New York Times was the paper of record.

And people believe that.

All the news that’s fit to print.

Right, exactly.

And so, but that’s been steadily eroding for decades.

And now the internet is the final erosion of that.

And look, I think it’s not a bad thing because in order for journalism to work, you need

all the journalists to buy into a certain code of journalistic behavior and ethics,

which is all about objectivity.

And the press doesn’t buy into that anymore.

They don’t believe in objectivity anymore.


And especially I’ll tell you something, Sachs, young writers, I found when we were trying

to hire young writers for Inside, as an example, they all wanted to write anti-Trump, you know,

pro-woke, whatever.

They had some ax to grind.

And I said, you know, you should really write for an opinion page, but you haven’t done

any journalism yet.

So you should probably do journalism for 10 years.

And then the second decade, you earn the right to be on the opinion page.

Let’s put in some reps.

Let’s do 10 years of this.

And, you know, it just never actually happened.

Wait, do you guys hear something?

Have you guys seen that movie from Duff Till Dawn?

And there’s that moment where the movie just suddenly the scene changes and everything’s


What’s that?

Is somebody at the…

Oh, what’s going on?

That’s the bestie line.

Wait, what?

Somebody’s calling the bestie phone.

Did you give the bestie phone number to somebody, Chamath?

Oh my God, is somebody…


What’s going on?

Who’s there?

You up?

You up?

You up?

What’s going on?


Let’s see.

Is anybody there?





Draymond Green in the house.

What’s up, bestie guestie?

Bestie guestie.

What’s going on, besties?

What’s up, bestie?

Where are you?

Are you in a coronavirus, COVID, quarantine, somewhere in an NBA bubble?

Where are you?

I don’t know.

I don’t know.

I don’t know.

I don’t know.

I don’t know.

I don’t know.

I don’t know.

I don’t know.

I don’t know.

I don’t know.

I am.

I’m in Dallas stuck in a hotel with bad water pressure.

Oh, the worst.

That is the thing.

If you had to give me the most luxurious hotel in the world, but with a faucet for water

pressure, no thanks.

I would rather sleep in a box with a great shower.

The water pressure is everything.


All right.

Well, obviously drafted by the Golden State Warriors in the second round, 35th overall

in the 2020 NBA draft, three-time NBA champion, 2016-17 Defensive Player of the Year, two-time

NBA All-Star, five-time All-Defense, and drafted behind Michael Kidd, Gilchrist, Deion Waters,

Harrison Barnes, Tyler Zeller, Miles Plumby, and I don’t know how many people got drafted

ahead of you, Draymond, but I know that you can repeat them in order.

Is there anybody who’s drafted ahead of you who has achieved even a fraction of what you’ve

achieved in the NBA, Draymond?

There’s 34 guys drafted ahead of me, and I definitely can still name all of them.

And saying that, I think there are a few.

Anthony Davis.

He’s done okay.

He got one ring.

Damian Lillard.

No rings.

But a stud, though.

A stud.

He’s a very good player, but no rings, I’m just saying.

And Bradley Beal.

Bradley Beal.


Also no rings.


So, I got all the guys in the rings category, but then I don’t have Patrick McCall in the

rings category.

Patrick McCall has the same amount of rings as me, so.


You know.


Respect to those guys I named, although they don’t have the rings, I got major respect

for those guys.

We were thinking about what to talk to you about coming on the pod, and we have a series

of questions just about being an NBA player, and what you’ve learned, and how good you’ve


I’ll start it off with one question, which is, it seems like every year you get a little

better at something.

How do you do that?

Do you say, over the summer, I’m just going to be better at my screens, I’m going to be

better at X, Y, or Z?

Or do you just try to get incrementally better all year long?

I mean, you always want to try to get better all year long, but the reality is, with this

season, with the way, not just this season in particular, in the NBA season in general,

you don’t have much time to get better.

So you’re kind of just getting better on the fly.

And when you’re in your workouts during the season, you’re just trying to maintain because

there’s such little prep time.

But during the offseason, you really lock in on a couple of things and try to get better

at those things.

And, you know, I think I’ve become a much better ball handler.

I think I see the floor much better.

I think I’ve gotten better overall as a player.

And one area that I’ve wanted to see more growth in is my shooting.

And you know, when I’m shooting the basketball on my own, I know for sure I’ve gotten better

at shooting.

Like, you know, you come in the gym with me, I shoot the lights out every time.

But it’s about getting over that mental block in the game.

You know, I think that’s the thing people don’t realize is, you know, I shot the lights

out for years in a row.

And I had a year where I think I shot 39% from three.

But then you go through the struggle, and once you lose it mentally, it’s hard to get

it back.

And so I’m fighting that challenge now, although I know I can make the shot, it’s when you

get in the game mentally, got to get over that hurdle.

What do you do?

You do like meditation?

Or do you have like a coach who does like positive visualizations or something like


Or is it just reps and working through a shooting slump?

I’ve definitely incorporated some meditation on the Calm app.

Thank you.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

Did you give him options?

You moron.

You have to disclose that shit.

On the All In podcast, you have to disclose if you have options.

I’m shipping the shares right now.

You don’t have any knowledge yet.

Okay, good.

No shares yet.

Hey, Draymond, are other players in the NBA struggling right now?

I mean, with like COVID over the last year and the shutdown and the fits and starts and


I mean, is it kind of tough to get in the game mentally for folks?

And is it?

It’s brutal.

Yeah, brutal.

You know, you talk to guys who are like, you know, I don’t want to be in the NBA.

I don’t want to be in the NBA.

I don’t want to be in the NBA.

I don’t want to be in the NBA.

And I’m talking about one superstar in particular who I’ve never seen him out of shape.

I think right now everybody’s talking about Luke.

And he’s so out of shape.

It’s not Luke or James Hart.

But I’ve never seen this guy to shape.

And he’s out of shape right now.

And I asked him, we explained that he’s like, man, the bubble, like, oh, it’s just been


And I completely understand that.

I mean, it’s brutal.

And this season currently, I don’t want to sound like just this overprivileged guy who’s

complaining about being able to make a living because there’s so many people who’s lost

their jobs.

And I don’t take being able to go to work for granted at all.

But this season has been extremely tough, you know, whereas an NBA day normally is like

maybe four to six hours, like every day right now, it’s like 10 to 12 hours.

You know, it’s COVID testing you for 11 a.m. practice.

We have to be at the facility at 845 a.m.

And then you have to be back at this facility to test no later than five in between four

and five.

And so you kind of have these long, drawn out days and about maybe two hours of that

is actual work time, you know, and then you’re just trying to do some recovery things to

kill time.

You can’t leave the hotel, you know, for myself.

One thing that I’ve always found in the NBA season is it’s a ton of pressure, obviously.

And it’s very, very demanding, like you can’t really do much else.

As you guys know, I’m always trying to coordinate with y’all about playing poker around the


You can’t really do anything else.

But one place that I found is normally I’ll take like a day trip to Aspen, you know, or

do different things like that, a day trip to L.A. to kind of clear your mind and get

a release.

You don’t have those releases now, you can’t take a day trip, you can’t get away.

Even on off days, you have to go to the facility and test.

And so even just seeing that facility that day, although you may not even go in to work

out, but you drive into that facility every day, mentally, it’s exhausting.

And so it’s been a very tough season, to say the least.

And I think a lot of guys are struggling with it and saying that, you know, we all

want to continue to earn our living, so you just have to do what you have to do.

It must be better to be playing versus being stuck at home with the league shut down, right?

I mean, it’s got to be better.

For sure.


I mean, it’s better for all of us, obviously.

You know, from an economical standpoint, we all want to continue to make money, you know,

and provide for our families.

We all want to continue to take this league to new heights.

So it’s always better for us to be on the court than off.

But that comes with certain challenges, and you just got to deal with those challenges

and try to continue to press forward.

Day Day, before you came on, we were talking about the media.

And we’re talking about how all these industries used to rely on the media to tell their story.

And now all these industries are finding ways to go around them.

And it’s even happening in venture capital, right?

In the business of sports, I found this thing that I thought was really interesting.

Ronaldo signed a $1 billion lifetime contract, right?

I think this is like two, three years insane.

But then it turned out that in one year, he generated $474 million of value for Nike just

through social media, because of the number of followers he had, which I think is just

absolutely nuts.

What do you think about the media?

What do you think about your ability to tell your version of the facts through the media?

I think we’ve definitely grown in that area, as you said, in all businesses, whether it’s

basketball, whether it’s venture, just all over the board.

Everyone has grown in that area and kind of start taking the bull by the horns and try

to tell their own narrative.

If you want me to be quite frank with you, I hate the media.

So does Sachs.

In saying that, I could possibly be a part of that group one day, but I hate the media.

And the reason I hate the media is I don’t hate particular people.

I have relationships with a ton of people in media, great people.

I hate what media entails in today’s day and age.

It’s all about who can stir up the most commotion.

What happened with this guy?

What happened with that guy?

It’s less about, man, this guy is struggling on the floor and more about James Harden was

in the club.

You know, so how much controversy can we stir up about James Harden being in the club, as

opposed to if we really wanted to talk bad about James Harden when he was on Houston

Rockets, he was bumming it.

Now, we all know James Harden isn’t a bum player, but he was completely dogging it with

the Houston Rockets.

He’s completely turned it up and turned back into James Harden as he’s gotten to the Knicks.

But you can easily, if you want to nitpick at James Harden, talk about James Harden not

playing well.

But in turn, we’re going to talk about James Harden being in the club that night and he

was at Lil Baby’s birthday party.

And although, you know, I disagree with some of the things he was doing, why is that all

that matters?

It’s all about clicks and selling ad dollars against that.

We were just talking about that before you got on.

Look at what happened to Kyrie.

In the span of literally a week, Kyrie had both sides of the same coin.

One was he violates the shelter in place or whatever, and was like at a birthday party

with his family, and then he gets suspended.

And on the other side, Kyrie had bought a house for George Floyd’s family.

And so it’s like, both are true, but you have to go through these two news cycles where

first he’s just a piece of shit, and then he’s this amazing philanthropist.

What’s the point?


I agree.

I don’t get the point.

And like Freeberg just said, it’s all about clicks.

And I think that’s short lived, you know, at some point everyone’s going to get tired

of your clickbait.

And so, yes, it may drive you revenue right now.

It may, you know, bring more subscribers right now.

But in the long term, people are going to get sick of that.

At the end of the day, authenticity always wins out.

When you create great products, when you give everything great to whatever business that

you’re giving, that’s always going to outlive the bullshit.

And so you got, and that’s why you’re starting to see so much turnover with media people

and leaving this job and going to this place and leaving another place, because people

get sick of that shit.

And so I feel like all of these guys are driving themselves out.

You’re constantly, you’re killing your relationships with players.

And when I say players, I’m not just talking about NBA players.

You guys are the players in the venture space.

We’re the players in the basketball space.

You’re killing your relationships with the players.

So eventually you’re just going to be stuck there tweeting out bullshit, making bullshit

articles that no one will co-sign to, and then no one wants to fucking hear you anymore.

I don’t get it.

Oh boy, looks like we got our bestie in rotation now.

That’s going to get clipped.

That’s a little rant, a little Draymond rant.

Oh man.

Your first bestie rant, Draymond.

We’ve all had our moments.

We’ve all had our rants.

Draymond, have you watched or listened to any of this podcast before?

Of course.

Are you fucking kidding me?

I don’t know.

I have a question actually.

So yeah, and I’m not sure if the viewers know, because from Jason’s introduction,

that we actually play poker with you.


You’re right.

That’s how I got to know you.

And obviously, it’s been a real thrill, because you’re a great guy, and it’s also really

interesting to get a window into your world.

But I’m curious, what do you get out of hanging out with us, these losers and pariahs?

And then maybe use that as a segue to also talk about what you’re doing in business these

days, because I think that’s interesting.

What I get from hanging out with you guys is, number one, incredible friends.

I think that’s what’s been the most important thing for me.

It’s just building friendships that will go far beyond any of you guys doing any deals.

It’ll go far beyond me doing any deals or me playing basketball.

And that’s the thing that I cherish the most.

Obviously, it started with Best DC bringing me into the poker game and introducing me

to everyone.

And then all of you guys welcoming me with open arms.

And I always say in our group chats, anytime that there’s a debate going on, I make sure

to throw my disclaimer out there.

Hey, I can’t talk anything with you guys.

I know everyone can talk circles around me.

But this is how I feel on said topic.

Tell us about the temperature in America.

The temperature in America is fucked up.

And I think where we are today as a country, it’s no different than where we were 30 years

ago, 40 years ago.

We just live in a day and age of social media where we can see everything.

And so the same battle cry that Dr. King was crying 50 years ago, it’s still currently

going on today.

It’s the same exact thing, or 60 years ago.

It’s the same exact things that’s taking place today.

And our country is in one of the most fucked up spaces it’s ever been in.

And in saying that, it’s in just about the same place that it’s always been in.

And so we’ve super coded shit for so long that it seems now like, oh, police killings

are at an all time high of shooting unarmed people.

Racism is at an all time high.

It’s not an all time high.

It’s the same that it’s been.

It’s just being pushed to the forefront now, as opposed to it being on the back burner


And so that’s just kind of where we are as a country.

You think sentiment’s going to shift, Draymond?

I mean, you know, the protests that happened in this country over the last year obviously

happened during COVID, and I think it magnified them a lot more than similar protests that

have taken place historically.

But are we seeing sentiment shift in the United States in terms of policy and people’s behaviors

and attitudes right now?

I think some people’s behavior, but I don’t think anything is going to shift.

And partly because we live in a fake ass world where no one can say anything.

You say anything, you get castrated for it.

I think in telling your truth, which in order to create the change that we need in America,

people have to be able to speak the truth.

And if you can’t speak the truth without getting fucking destroyed and a part of the bullshit

cancel culture that we all have to deal with, then how can you ever create change through a lie?

Lies is what we’ve been facing for hundreds of years.

But yet, when you get in front of a microphone, you have to be very conscious of what you say,

because it may piss this group of people off, or it may piss that group of people off.

And then you’re never allowed to tell the fucking truth.

So how will we ever move forward as a country if no one can tell the truth and you only get


So you cancel who tells the truth, and we fucking push forward all the lies,

we’ll never move anywhere as a country.

So I don’t think we’re going anywhere.

Seems like in the NBA, we went from the player saying,

listen, I don’t want to touch that.

Michael Jordan was very clear in the last dance, like, I’m an athlete.

I don’t want to talk about politics.

I don’t want to lose half the audience.

And then you had Mellow and LeBron and a bunch of folks.

Chris Paul, I guess, was in that group too.

Dwayne Wade, when they came out and said, hey, listen, we got to talk about this.

And we got to talk about race in America.

And then that culminated with the Black Lives Matter branding of everything in the bubble

and that kind of historic moment.

What was the vibe inside of the NBA when the player said, listen, this is important to us.

If we’re going to get back on the court, we need to make this front and center.

This is our priority.

And then let’s face it.

You got a lot of owners in the league, maybe who are old white guys.

Maybe they don’t want to bring this kind of heat.

They don’t want this kind of debate.

They want to just play ball, shut up and dribble, all this nonsense.

What was that moment like when you guys said, no,

this is what we have to do if we’re going to get back on the court?

I think guys have just had enough.

And most importantly, I think now more than ever,

guys truly understand the power of the athlete.


Closing the loop on what we just said.

We control the narrative.

You control the narrative.


And so we’re just kind of in a space where we understand this ship don’t sail without us.

And the things that matter to us has to matter to the league now.


And saying that, I think we have a commissioner that supports everything we stand for.

And when you have a commissioner like Adam Silver,

who is in full support of everything that the players stand for,

is never trying to fight us, is never trying to put a muzzle on us

and tell us not to stand up for what we believe in, that’s a very powerful thing.

And that’s why the NBA is the most powerful sports league in the world,

because we have a commissioner who’s on board and who not only supports

what the players think and what we believe in, but he takes it even a step further.

And you don’t see that.

You see the NFL tell guys you have to stay or stay in the locker room.

Adam Silver don’t do that to us.

And that’s why there’s always friction between their commissioner and their players.

David, what did you think about the storm the Capitol when you were watching that?

What was going through your mind?

We see the two different sides of America.

The first thing that went through my mind was,

I wonder if that was a Black Lives Matter protest

or Black Lives Matter protests or stormed in the Capitol,

how much of a bloodbath it would have been.

It would have been one of the biggest bloodbaths in American history.

And so immediately when I saw it, the first thing I thought of was like,

wow, how is this even happening?

And let alone it not happening, no one.

And by the way, I don’t wish death on anyone.

But I know that if those were melanated people

storming into the Capitol building, it would have been bloodshed everywhere.

They would have unloaded facts.


And so it just kind of really, once again, just revealed how there’s two sides of America.

And as I said before, until we tell the truth about it,

we’ll still we’ll continue to live in a day and age where there’ll be two sides of America.

Draymond, when COVID first started and we went into lockdown and we were all texting

with each other talking about how crazy the world had become, one of the things that stuck

with me and still sticks with me is the comments you made over our text chain about how it feels

like you felt growing up.

Can you just explain what you meant by that and just share that with our audience that’s


Because it was such a striking comment.

We were all like, oh my gosh, I can’t go outside.

I can’t go to the store.

This world is crazy.

And you were like, this is what it was like.

And it was just such a striking, maybe you can just share a little bit about what you

meant by that.

Because I think it paints a little bit of a picture, you know, for folks to understand

a little bit about, you know, kind of, you know, what America can be like and what it’s

like growing up in parts of the US.

Well, number one, I want to point out that I told all of y’all the first day we went

into lockdown, we all should go to Cabo and no one listened to me.

It was a good call.

It was a good call.

You were right.

We should all go to Cabo.

Oh, yeah.


No, but when I said that in the group chat, what I said, what I said in the group chat

was, honestly, I was in my condo in San Francisco.

I live in a high rise, great view of the Bay Bridge, great view of the water.

You see all of San Francisco, South San Francisco, everywhere.

And I said to the group chat after a few weeks of lockdown, I said this, you know, guys,

I have to be quite frank with you.

This feels no different than me growing up in Saginaw, Michigan.


And what I mean by that, I said, this feels no different than me growing up in Saginaw,


The only difference is I know where my I know where my next meal is coming from, you know,

and I’m in a much better place living space than I was.

But this was no different.

We’re unlocked in.

I can go anywhere.

That was me growing up in Saginaw, Michigan, locked in, couldn’t go anywhere, didn’t know

that there was a world that existed outside of Saginaw, Michigan, and basketball was able

to take me different places.

But I didn’t know anything existed and nothing seemed accessible to a young black kid growing

up in Saginaw, Michigan.

So once I was once I was then locked in the house along with everyone else in the world,

it just took me back to a space of, wow, nothing else is accessible to me.

This was exactly what it was when I was growing up as a 10 year old.

Like, nothing was accessible to us.

We didn’t have anything.


That’s how and so when we went into lockdown, like, I felt right at home.

I felt like the kid growing up in Saginaw again.

Nothing was accessible to me.

But it’s such a poignant point, Draymond, because so many people don’t, you know, people

don’t have that experience.

But hearing you say that it provides perspective that there are people living that today.

And it’s not just about a COVID lockdown, but it’s about a different world that we don’t

get to see.

So I really appreciated you sharing that.

It honestly was very poignant and kind of struck a nerve with me when you said it.


I think, you know, one thing, another thing I said in the chat, and I am included, we

all got a chance to see what it felt like to be those people.

Obviously, I lived that life growing up.

But once you’re removed from it, you’re removed from it, right?

Like, I, you know, you try not to never forget.

But let’s let’s be frank, you know, Chamath, you grew up with nothing coming from India

and Sri Lanka and going to Canada.

You had nothing.

You understand.

And, you know, we all understand from a different perspective, but there are still people currently

that live that live that life today.

Can I tell you all of us a glimpse of what those people go through on a daily basis?

The one the one thing about this pandemic is that I’ve had these moments day where like

I actually now am a little bit more connected to my past.

I did this.

I did this podcast with this guy, Patrick O’Shaughnessy, and he ends every podcast and

he says, you know, what is the kindest thing that somebody somebody has done to you and

I had pushed this memory down into the fucking recesses of my mind, except in this last year,

I’ve remembered all these kindnesses because I’ve I’ve now I’ve I’ve these are the moments

where I felt the most insecure and I and I told the story about this kid who, you know,

when I was like 11 or 12, he was eight.

So he was in my sister’s class and their family gave us a mattress, two mattresses and some

clothes, you know, some plates and like a frying pan and a pot literally when we got

refugee status.

And when I said it on the thing, I started bawling and then I kind of collected myself

and then getting a little verklempt even hearing you talk about it, man.

Well, and the next the next morning, Nat said, how did it go?

And I told her and I exploded and I was crying and crying and crying and crying.

And to your point, like it is so easy to forget where you come from, but it’s also easy to

forget that there’s a simple fucking externality.

In this case, it’s a it’s a virus you can’t see that gets trans and it makes us all the

same in one fell swoop in one nanosecond.

And if that doesn’t make you sort of like empathetic to everybody, not nothing will.

But that’s one silver lining in this whole fucking debacle is it’s an opportunity for

for a lot of folks to reconnect with their own self, you know, and be a better person.

There’s something you paused on, Draymond, during the pandemic when you weren’t playing

and you guys obviously with the injuries and everything, you weren’t in the bubble.

So you had a lot of time to be with yourself.

Did you have any like during this great pause, you know, I don’t know, revelations about

yourself, your career and what you want to do in the second half of your career?

Because let’s be honest, I mean, the run the Warriors has had has been transcendent.

I mean, you guys have checked off every box.

You personally have checked off every box, especially for a guy who was drafted in the

second round to be a champion.

And like the way you’ve developed and the leadership.

I mean, everybody in the league knows when you’re on the court, that’s the team.

And you have that leadership, the ability to see the floor and direct the offense, direct

the defense.

Did you come up with anything where you said this is what I want out of the future of my


Because we saw you dabble with, you know, TNT and the desk and you killed it.

We’ve seen you mic’d up.

We see you coaching now.

It seems like there’s a 2.0 drama on like, maybe a little evolution here of you’re thinking

about maybe the third act and the second half of your NBA career on the court.

You know, I had a lot of time to really sit and reflect.

You know, I grew a lot in my personal relationships, which I think was important.

You know, and I think I also grew up grew a lot as as a business professional as well.

And speaking of, you know, the TNT stuff, that was, I think, you know, we’ve kind of

always or I’ve kind of always heard, like, man, when you when you finish playing, you’ll

have a great career in TV.

But the reality is, you know, we’ve seen some players, you know, that were really good players

get up there and not be very, you know, be very good sitting at the desk or, you know,

color commentating the game.

And so it’s not as easy as most people think it is.

People think just because you play basketball, A, that, you know, basketball, and then B,

that you’re going to help, you’re going to be able to translate or help give everyone

else an understanding of what exactly it is that you see.

And so getting up there and actually being able to do it.

And then the reception that I got, which was people, you know, in my mind, I’ve always

said, I want to be Tony Romo of the NBA.

Tony Romo is one of my favorite people to watch do color commentary because he makes

it very simple for you to understand.

He tell you, Tony Romo sit there and call the plays out that a team is about to run

just by seeing the formation.

And they do exactly what he said they’re about to do.

It’s the most incredible thing.

And in speaking of which we were talking about earlier, which was the media.

One of the things that pissed me off most about the game of basketball today is I can’t

turn on a sports talk show and actually learn about basketball.

And that fucking pisses me off.

All I can turn on a talk show about is they’re about bullshit.

But the reality is we have so many people talking and speaking about the game of basketball

that don’t know shit.


And so you can’t turn on the TV and learn.

And so the one thing I’ll say I want to bring to that world is I want to be able to teach

the game of basketball.

And then for people to then contact me once I was sitting up there at the desk and inside

on inside the NBA and doing all of these different things to contact me and say, the way you

break the game down makes it so easy to understand.

That was a huge win for me.

And it gave me a lot of hope to want to succeed more in that area.

Well, I’ll say something different, which is what I see is just an incredibly beautiful

human being, because you’re able to humanize that, but then you can go and speak on these

other things.

That’s actually what we need more of, because all of a sudden now it’s very hard to put

people in a box.

And it shows that we are all multifaceted.

It’s just that sometimes we don’t get the exposure.

Meaning, like, I would say I have different facets of my personality, because we’ve been

friends for so long.

And that’s a gift you gave to me.

You just said being in that group chat with us, which can be a cacophonous fucking mess

sometimes that group chat can never, never, never to be published.

But the point is, like, and this is goes back to this first thing, like we can now really

like be authentic and show all these different facets of ourself.

And it’s just like, to me, that’s what’s really important.

Because then people see that there is more than, you know, like the most, the best rebuttal

to like that whole shut up and dribble, which was so fucking offensive, is literally for

you to be great at basketball, great at broadcasting, great as a, you know, social, you know, person

who can comment on the social times of our moment, great businessman.

And then I’m just going to put one thing out there right now.

Eventually, great fucking politician, because this is like now you want to talk about somebody

know, but you want to talk about somebody who can galvanize interest and there’s an

open governor.

Someone on our podcast no longer running.

Apparently, guys, guys, I’m going to make a prediction that our bestie will be the governor

of Michigan or the governor of California.

Love it for before the time he’s 50.

Love it.

There you go.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

Maybe I mean, you know, I love the state of Michigan.

That’s all you know.

But I think California will be home for me for the rest of my life.

So possibly California.

Hey, Draymond, let me ask you a question.

You’re on Twitter.

I understand you have a Twitter handle.

Sometimes you check it out.

Did you see Chamath’s shirtless picture with the shirt off?

And did you see the thirst trap?

Did you see it?

And tell the truth.

I mean, he looked away.

If we all know Chamath, I’m sorry.

Probably sent it to the fucking group chat.

Oh, he’s stepping out.

I definitely saw the picture.

Actually, I I’m the one who posted it to the to the group chat.

No, that’s that’s posted it.

And I my comment, my comment.

My comment was Chamath Kardashian.

Question mark.

Because you put you put the camera in front of your face.

You were like you it looked like this.

It was like this thing like that.

Dada taught me how to do this.

He’s like, oh, yeah, that’s enough.

OK, guys, listen, we are we’re we’re nearing the end of our podcast.

Jason, do you want to tell Dada what we’re going to do?

OK, so some people have given some reviews or just feedback

on the pod, on the besties, maybe even you, Draymond.

And so we thought it would be incredibly uncomfortable

and funny for us to read some of these.

So, Sax, why don’t you kick us off with one?

Well, there’s a really good pie chart here, which Nick Nick and

show, which shows all in pod talk time.

And it’s basically mostly Chamath and then Jason

with both Davids filling like a tiny little piece.

And then it’s one third.

The majority of it is Chamath and Jason talking over each other.

Board Elon Musk posted that, I guess.

Yeah, well, here’s one from Brooklyn Gal 212 on Saks.

One star review.

Sax, go ahead and read this one star review from Brooklyn Gal 212.

Yeah, she says that David Saks ruins every conversation on this pod.

You forgot the period.

All right.

Here’s one about Chamath.

Go ahead, Chamath.

This is Chamath.

Yeah, Chamath, read this one.

OK, it’s from Howard Axel Roark.

With a pill.

OK, with a pill.

It says, every time Chamath does something to make me like him,

he does two things to make me hate his guts.

I mean, go fuck yourself.

I think we can all relate to that one.

It sounds like me and my playing career.

Everyone fucking hates me, man.

It’s crazy.

Draymond, I will tell you, when I first when I first thought about putting a tweet out

for like the first time, you were the one who said, man, everyone’s going to talk shit,

but forget the haters.

Like, that’s just the way it goes when you start.

Oh, yeah.

Fuck them.


Fuck the haters.

All right.

Here’s one for this is a super fan.

Aaron sent this one into the email.

Jason, at this point, I fully believe you have bought, laminated and framed Kathy Griffin,

severed Trump in that picture.

How many gallons of semen spilled onto it when Biden was inaugurated?

Oh, my Lord.

Oh, too much.

Twitter offered two blue chuck marks.

You’d have three.

Your zealotry has made even Bill Maher blush and the other besties cringe when you can’t

take even a slight ribbing.

It’s so bad now.

The besties have started their own side chat without you at your funeral.

The besties will show up not out of respect for you, but for your family.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my Lord.

Signed, Jacqueline Sacks.

No comment here, Andy.

Oh, my Lord.

OK, David, here’s yours.

Yours is up, David.

Wait, wait.

I need to do this hot take.

Hot take.


The hot take.

Hot takes.

Not deeply researched.

Three stars.

Jason and Chamath make good points, but the other two are such whiny nerds.

One of whom is clearly right wing.

Wannabe vanilla Isis.

Oh, my Lord.

So brittle.

Did he just call you a terrorist, Sacks?

I think he’s referring to Freeberg.

Which David?

Definitely not me.

Definitely not me.

They all have the same form where I just want to be clear.

Jason, you want to read the next one?

This is incredible.

Evil Jason.

Evil Jason.

OK, here we go.

This is from Adam Keem.

He posted this on January 30th, so not long ago.

He gives me a full one star, which I think one star is like number one, right?

Five stars is fifth place.

First star is one place.

Jason Calacanis is a monster.


Not monster.

Monster, monster.


After listening to Jason on the latest podcast, I am floored.


His personal attacks and his complete support of the manipulators in our market should tell

you something.

This guy is evil.

Let’s move on.

Thanks, mom.

David is trash.

That is all.

Which David?


Always Freeberg.

Always Freeberg.

Oh, no, here’s one I’ll read.

If Metro Mile and or becoming new head of USA vaccination doesn’t work out for David

Freeberg, he could still have an amazing career as a Kermit the Frog voice actor.


Here’s Marcus Aurelius A13367156 saying to me,

Stop sniffing your own farts.

What the fuck does that mean?

It means that you are so enamored with yourself, Jamal, that you think your farts are fragrant.

Oh, my God.

All right.

OK, I’m going to read.

I’m going to read a Draymond Green mean tweet.

Oh, there you go.

Oh, no.

Draymond Green shoot like he’s sitting down in a chair.

Fuck off.

Oh, my God.

Read the next one.

Read the next one.

Talk about rebounds or screens.


This is from Sugar Lump Lump Sugar Lump Lump Sugar Lump Lump.

Draymond Green is so attractive to me.

I don’t know why, because he’s legally ugly.

Wait a second.

Did she nag you?

I think she’s trying to slide into the DMs and nagging you at the same time.

You know, the brutal, by the way, the brutal thing about that, the way the brutal thing

about that, the brutal thing about that is is not not one sent to me.

She’s like, man, Draymond Green is really attractive.

I said, what the fuck are you talking about?

I said, I am so much better looking than Draymond Green.

You’ll never get over that, Draymond.

He’ll talk about that for you.

He’ll never get over that.

It’s been a year.

I’m still tilted.

Let’s not get crazy, OK?

You’re solid sevens on a podcast full of fives.

Take it easy.

Did they read Goldbluth’s guts?

Goldbluth’s guts.

Draymond Green still shoots like he got the door and he swore a black triangle off.

That’s so brutal.

We invite Draymond, we invite Draymond on this nice podcast.

Don’t even tell him.

Have him roast himself.

This is, he’s never coming back.

Goldbluth’s guts, those shots are not going in, buddy.

Not going in, buddy.

Oh my God.

This is just, it’s so hard.

It’s so hardcore.

Oh my God.

That was really fun to, Draymond, that was really fun to have you on.

Thanks for coming on.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

Besties, love you guys.

I love all of you.

Love you, Besties.

I love you.

By the way, I also appreciate you fucking nerds for not talking circles around me on

this podcast.

Leave that for the chat.

All right.

Love you, big boy.

All right.

I love you all.

We appreciate you, Draymond.

Love you guys.

Love you, Besties.

I love you, Besties.

Oh, man.

We should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy because they’re all just


It’s like this, like, sexual tension that they just need to release somehow.


You’re the B.


You’re the B.

You’re a B.

We need to get merch.

Besties are back.