Video

Transcript

[Music]

hello everyone I have another special

guest dr. Eric Westman is here I did an

interview before so welcome back thank

you it’s great to be back and listen I

wanted to bring you on because for a

couple reasons I’m what’s unique about

you is you’re in a clinical setting you

actually are medical doctor you practice

on a regular full-time and you your mode

of therapy is like food therapy like you

do keto I mean this is like so rare so I

wanted to get a chance to pick your

brain and just dive in here because a

lot of times if you look at the videos

out there they’re from people who have

never actually worked one-on-one with a

patient and that is a huge advantage

when you’re dealing with just experience

because you don’t always get the same

type of person so I think probably being

a practice expanding your view point of

you know you can’t just put everyone

into one little hole right absolutely

and well as you know as a clinician

everyone’s different so people have

different stories different actually

different metabolism different bodies so

having a clinical base for me now and

and in the past I’ve been doing this now

about 12 years in a private practice at

a university at Duke University and that

was after eight years of clinical

research doing clinical studies and

publishing them in peer-reviewed

journals so I know the difference also

between doing a study and doing

something in clinical practice you have

much more flexibility when you’re

dealing with someone one-on-one in the

clinical practice exactly so that’s why

I wanted it I want to try have some very

interesting questions the first question

is when you have people that come in to

see you are they looking for

Kito or are they looking for losing

weight do they know anything about keto

the whole gamut excuse me I’m in a

unique setting where well some people

walk into my office and they

I watched every video of mine they they

know exactly what to do in fact money

because they have to wait have already

started that that’s a whole gamut from

also I have individuals who are referred

by other doctors in the area here in

Durham in North Carolina and they are

not so up on the they may not even have

Google to do a little research on what

the clinic does and then and the third

set of folks have no idea what I do they

there they just come in the my doctor

sent me I guess in that middle group

it’s people who have asked their doctors

for help with obesity with you know

treating with weight loss or diabetes

control but it I think a unique nature

of the clinical setting I’m in because

it’s a insurance and Medicare Medicaid

based so the other types of health care

providers I get a wide range of folks

actually very rarely did someone come in

and pay out of pocket to my Wow Duke so

yeah some people have no idea why

they’re there most people come for

obesity and diabetes treatment although

I’m comfortable now treating most

diseases with monitoring because I’m an

internal medicine specialist by training

but answer your question

most people come for obesity and

diabetes but not everyone interesting

now I get I get this a lot so people

always ask me well do I have a referral

from new medical doctor just just

because you know in my area min Virginia

you know there’s there’s not a lot of

medical doctors that even know about

keto they’re not taught that so people

are trying to go to the medical doctor

and try to like they want to be on this

eating plan but they also need the

medical doctor so there

there’s they’re doing this this conflict

so do you

what’s your you know your quick answer

on dealing with their doctors and that

are kind of anti they’re kind of like oh

no you shouldn’t do that that’s number

one it’s it’s dangerous it’s gonna put

you at risk so you know that’s one of

the things I mean if they live close to

you of course you would come to see you

but what if they’re Nebraska and they’re

like on that what am I going to do

yeah of course we’re trying to fix that

within our new company which I will talk

about later I hope but in actually

making available doctors and training

them ourselves but yeah the current

situation is kind of sad you know if a

doctor says it’s unsafe or it’s gonna

kill you they’re clearly out of touch so

you know more than your doctor does

there was a recent article in the news

that said you know here are diets that

are deadly and keto was one of them is

right now I do kind of roll my eyes

because that’s so out of date and you

know you can’t police every media report

but so for doctors well I guess I have

two responses one is if you’re otherwise

healthy if you’re not on any medications

you don’t have any really serious

medical problems ongoing I mean you had

your appendix out and and maybe your

tonsils and and something you don’t need

your doctor to do this I mean there’s

enough information now that you can do

this with proper teaching and coaching

without your doctors support and so or

one thing you can say is well can we

agree to disagree on the diet I’m just

going to do this can you monitor

everything else right that you would

normally measure that so that’s one

strategy but but I do caution that if

someone is taking medications and I

think if the diet is unsafe it’s just

that medications can become too strong

right so if you’re handling the district

cause the blood pressure coming down

you’re on medication now it’s gonna come

really low or another point you bring up

about if you’re on insulin which I want

us to spend a little minute on this

because if you’re a diabetic type two

and you’re on insulin

and you don’t monitor that and you go on

keto your your blood sugars are coming

down and you’re still taking the same

insulin you’re gonna end up with a

serious hypoglycemia reaction we see the

blood sugar can go down fifty to a

hundred units in one day or that’s

milligrams per deciliter but I mean 50

to 100 points so if you don’t produce

the insulin you will get a hypo now a

lot of people get hypose they think

nothing of it I I don’t want a hypo man

I it can be life-threatening

so another strategy that we use is we

would rather have the blood sugar be a

little higher than to be too low and a

lot of doctors don’t understand that

they they want really tight control as

someone’s changing the diet losing

weight so that so actually there’s kind

of a training that’s important for

doctors to go through that might not be

totally apparent to the doctor who’s new

to this so even let’s say you went to

your doctor if said I’m gonna start this

keto diet what should I do with my

insulin the doctor might say well you

know diets aren’t very powerful you know

they’re not very strong just go ahead

and try this oh no no no no so that’s a

caution I have I mean insulin is being

pushed so much now by medical doctors

and I Batala gist and and in fact most

of my patients think they can never come

off the insulin because they yeah yeah

and just for those of the that are new

watching dr. Westman you just study I

think I think this is based on your own

clinics that you were able to drop the

use of insulin like 98% is that give me

the actual figures on that because this

is like mind-blowing data right here

well so this in several papers that are

published in the literature in fact our

first one was published in 2008 so that

most people have forgotten about it

sadly so yes you know in there and you

know we made the kind of policy decision

to never say that one died it’s better

than another

another diet can’t work and so in that

paper we showed that the low glycemic

diet worked for diabetes but the

low-carb keto or keto diet worked better

and we got to take people off of insulin

more frequently a big study that came

out this year

Sarah Hallberg dr. Hallberg at Purdue

was the first author they were able to

take most people off or at least reduce

insulin in a year and over 200 people

now in our own clinic analysis with

about 50 people that’s where this data

comes from we were able to take people

off ninety percent of people off insulin

in seven weeks and it says I just want

to stop there because that’s like not

trivial yeah you come it’s amazing it’s

unbelievable

it is unbelievable because they we’re

talking like 90 over 90 plus percent of

the people within seven weeks yeah this

should be on every newspaper I mean this

is like huge because the because the

here’s the problem yes they’re trying to

regulate their sugars but the damage of

having high levels of insulin people

don’t realize that you have a lot of

problems with that even like someone’s a

diabetic type 2 and they’re on insulin

and there are normal blood sugars with

Jake and a lot of insulin they don’t

necessarily decrease the risk from heart

disease do they right no no and it

really just creates a chronic meaning a

a long term problem that you’ll never

fix but you know the insulin field and

insulin makers just makes stronger

insulin whether now 500 which is five

star five times stronger than the 100

units and so people are coming to me and

stronger and stronger insulin of course

what your body does is just like turning

the volume down when the noise gets

louder you just turn it down and so that

you actually don’t fix the problem you

just get more and more insulin in your

body says no no no I’m not going to

listen so I guess the but the way I say

that and one reason it’s not on the

headlines I guess is that the dominant

medical field of

pushes insolence so I it’s you know

we’re outliers we still small number of

people and depend so I’m kind of given

up on trying to change the mindset of

the mainstream folks even the general

doctors in my area because they’re

taught oh you have diabetes you’re gonna

have it forever

you have to take medicines and you’ll

never fix it and that that’s not the

case I mean so it’s like as you said

right at the start we understand that

food is more important than any

medication yeah fortunately just not a

lot of money and food is a practitioner

you he start recommending food and in

consulting and education was there’s you

know it’s not a money-making activity

question I have you were a past

I think the rector or I don’t know if it

was the president of the American

Diabetes Association right

yeah no it’ll be medicine obesity

medicine Association now president and

past chairman the board

you get to go through all of those okay

so so that was an organization that had

nothing to do with keto right well

interestingly the reason I got into the

obesity medicine Association it was to

teach the keto diet and so actually

there are a number and I would say I

don’t know 5 percent 10 percent of folks

who use the keto diet in that

Association house the Association has

about 2100 individuals so it’s growing I

mean it’s small but it’s growing you can

actually sit for a board for obesity

medicine now called the hey B om

American Board of obesity medicine so

but in the guideline of the OMA will be

Smith’s physician Association there is a

a approval of using a keto diet as an a

safe and effective way to treat obesity

so there is a national organization that

approves of sanctions or however you

want to say it endorses the use of a

keto diet well that is increasing great

data because I did

idea yeah I probably could use that and

just quotes for people that are like oh

it’s dangerous well it’s they’re

recognizing it well typically your email

by the end of the day yeah good

now when you when you were running this

organization or being a part of it

obviously there’s a lot of different

fixed ideas or other theories that

people have a hard time unfixing like

you guys probably would do symposiums

and think conventions right yes into

meetings every year and you would pose

that you would probably speak on Quito

imagine now what was the response did

they all go yeah this makes sense I’m on

board or what did you get people rolling

their eyes or what what happened well so

I’ve been teaching there for about ten

years so in fact the the people who

taught me there

you know this obesity medicine

Association has been around seventy

years and so there are people who now

retired the people who created the

organization and help to teach me as

well and they all knew going back to

when dr. Atkins was practicing and other

doctors who were using different

techniques that the low-carb worked and

it was just a matter of what people do

it is it mainstream enough you know the

doctors push back and say you can’t eat

all that fat and so it’s changing now

fortunately the pop culture is aware

that eating fat is not a big a deal as

people thought it was but so the obesity

medicine Association most of those

doctors will use some sort of medication

first and then use a low carb or or

lower calorie diet in addition to it we

now use Lokar yeah yeah they just well

so you know the diet is less important

is the drugs and that organization as a

whole but there is a subset of folks who

use a keto diet and only like me so I

rarely use medications sometimes I will

especially if individual has gone to my

you know compadre down the street who

uses medication and they don’t want to

pay for

out of pocket there they might come to

my practice which is insurance pay and

then ask for the medication that was

prescribed somewhere else

it’s not like I’m philosophically or

morally opposed and that is I mean I’m

an internist I used to prescribe

medicine all the time now it is I can

take it away and I would say 95% of my

patients are strictly or just uniquely

keto without medication I mean this is

the trend this is what people want

people want Doc’s that actually involve

food they want Doc’s that actually

emphasize the food and that’s what’s

missing yeah what about there’s another

organization it’s called the obesity

society what is that what is that all

about

yeah the obesity society is the research

group in the u.s. so I think of the the

obesity medicine Association as the

medical clinical doctors obesity society

is the researchers and then the third

group is the surgical group American

Society of metabolic and bariatric

surgeons and the surgeons and the the

research group get together once a year

in what’s called obesity week that’s

usually in the fall and the obesity

medicine Association the clinical group

meets on that on its own twice a year

usually on one side of the country in

the u.s. going back and forth but those

are the three major organizations in the

US that address obesity

what kind of trend tied into research

one yeah what kind of trend are we

seeing with the medical new medical

doctors coming on board using using some

of these techniques food therapy

whatever what’s happening who is there

any training training program is there

any type of ongoing seminars with

doctors can start to learn these the

basics well these are there are a few

few and far between the programs that

are are starting to me the nutrition

part is the old paradigm so you might

get into a

a program that’s supported in your area

by the local hospital even learn from

that group but they’ll pull in the old

you know food guide pyramid and all that

which you know should be kind of erased

from history so sadly the groups that

are well-intentioned in it and

addressing obesity are still teaching

doctors the old nutrition or they’re

teaching the new medications that are

for new fda-approved medications and you

know really it’s easy for a doctor just

to prescribe a pill or a shot than to go

into all the details about the food and

make sure they’re oh you know you’re

having you know one soda a we could you

know with sugar no you can’t do it’s

simpler in this big system to just

prescribe medicines there’s a third

element that we obesity medicine doctors

have or a third approach and that’s the

very low calorie diets where people just

buy the products it’s they’re designed

so that you don’t eat any food you don’t

take any medicine you just buy the

products now the problem with that is

when you’re you’ve lost your weight with

the product what do you do and so if the

you haven’t been taught what to do after

you use the products people just go back

to that weight and you know two years

later they’re on the products I mean so

that’s not a great long-term answer and

so you you have an interview in your

clinic you part of it it’s education

right oh yeah so yeah so do if you’re

gonna just teach lifestyle or and really

I just it’s 100 percent diet at first

and my clinic there are lots of ways to

do it I mean people can read a book

again if you’re you’re not on any

medications and don’t have any serious

medical problems go out and get one of

the great resources now available or you

come to a clinic I take an hour in a

teaching class format so it’s a group

group session so you know all the new

people come in get a full 30 to 45

minutes with me or my colleague dr. will

Yancey and so it’s like a the model of

the clinic that we have is like it’s a

referral

specialty clinic so other doctors will

send patients and I’ll say their doctors

don’t get any training in weight loss

and I went out to eat special training

that’s all I do so I take a history

about the diet about the weight and

things that people have tried use a

one-hour class and you know one of the

aspects of the class that you can’t get

from canned teaching out there or

reading a book is that it’s

individualized so someone sits down for

an hour with me or with another teacher

they can ask questions that in their

mind you know everyone has a little

different way of looking at nutrition

for example you know you said I couldn’t

have you know diet soda but can I have

carbonated water with flavor you know or

you know everyone has a unique way of

looking at the world and the nutrition

and so a class like that it’s helpful in

that regard but it’s not necessary I

mean now after the class I usually now

allow people to go about four weeks

without touching base with me I give

them you know email consult if they need

it in that time but so there’s the

initial evaluation the teaching and then

at one month a four-week follow-up visit

which works pretty well I like that I am

in practice I did seminars some three

times a week it was a mandatory

orientation and I basically didn’t even

take them on unless they went through it

so I screened out a lot of people that

you know aren’t gonna follow up anyway

so I wanted to really get the only the

people that were wanting to know about

it and they just became great clients

and better follow through so I think the

you know and they have to get this basic

data because you’re basically stripping

off all the bad information and you’re

getting rid of these myths and one by

one but the people don’t even know what

they what they have in their mind that’s

false until you bring it up and they’re

like right what you mean that’s not good

I’m like no drinking orange juice every

morning is has a lot of sugar you know

even when you you know give the whole

spiel it’s a lot of information and they

go out and there

you know life nutritionist dr. grocery

store clerk who ever you know church

friends at synagogue knit you know they

they get the information there you know

what are you doing this doesn’t look

right and so the follow-up visits are

really important to focus people on this

and I’m pretty careful to say other ways

can work but that’s just not the way

we’re doing it and I like teaching

someone to drive on the left-hand side

of the road in a car it’s a process you

learn to get in the car on the other

side and you you actually keep to the

left of the line they’re not the right

of the line anyway so you don’t need the

low fat foods out there you can have

full fat things anyway so that there’s

an initial teaching and then there’s

that practical ok you’ve tried it out to

it you come back and let’s keep

adjusting it’s another metaphor I use is

like it’s like teaching someone to ride

a bike you know it after a while you

just did you get it and then you don’t

need your parent or someone behind you

making sure you don’t fall but you know

you might fall and you know you might

skinned your knee when you’re learning

to or bruise your ego in the keto world

when you don’t do it quite right and a

good practitioner will help just kind of

in a supportive way through all of those

different things because we know that

you know you’re gonna fall down if

you’re gonna learn to ride a bike you

know that’s right well you know I think

that one of things I was loved is

checking on your website and I really

find it interesting what you’re evolving

into and you’re going to be spreading

because you because here’s the thing

like there’s a certain percentage very

high percentage of people that are on

medications and they’re like ok I want

to do keto but then they have to work

with the medical doctor altum Utley the

ideal situation would be having places

at least one in every city a place where

you can go that someone’s keto friendly

someone that actually educates you

someone you can bounce questions someone

that can help handle your medications

and there’s not hardly anyone that I

know other

doing this except you you think right

now there’s four clinics but you sprint

you have these plans of expanding to

other clinics around the country and

plugging in doctors that are educated I

think that is going to be the way of the

future and I want to definitely support

you on that I think that also I want you

to before you explain it what what it is

I want people to I’m gonna put a link

down below you can check out what dr.

Westman is up to and what’s gonna be

happening but you can actually even

invest in its clinics you can actually

support its clinics and you can donate

to expanding clinics around the country

and guys I had a comment before like oh

you know that’s a money-making thing

actually no it’s not it’s more like a

it’s like a on purpose thing you’re

actually because you believe it it’s a

it’s a new service yeah and it’s

something that is uh it’s ultimately

gonna happen but it’s gonna take someone

like you to just go out there and start

pushing it because it’s a boulder you’re

going up against all these fixed ideas

however I know a lot of people watching

donate to various causes this would be a

very very good thing to donate on

something that actually is going to help

people for real and get results so maybe

you can summarize kind of what your plan

is to gonna put clinics or get doctors

educated and spread it yeah well it just

to be clear it’s not a donation it’s

actually owning part of the company okay

and this is kind of new to me I’d never

been involved in a crowdsourcing equity

campaign so you’re not just buying a

product early and then when the company

makes the product you get it that’s a

Kickstarter kind of thing this is you’re

actually the owning part of the company

but if the company gets profitable you

gain from that investment so but if you

think of it another way you’re

purchasing the ability to get a clinic

in your area for example so it’s kind of

like you are buying something

but it’s not a it’s actually equity and

stock in the company and you know part

of the I’ve been doing this now 20 years

in research and twelve years in a

clinical setting in a university and

universities are not listening in fact

there was a paper published this year in

Pediatrics where individuals who were

doing a keto diet with type 1 diabetes

were surveyed and showed that they could

get off all this insulin they still

needed some but but it was a Facebook

survey that’s going to be changing

academia and this is a anyway long story

short it it’s the people changing the

academics so all of the work I’ve done

the published papers didn’t change

anything Wow and I want change what do I

do it well so I’ve been going around

talking with people that the grassroots

and the grassroots can have to change us

which leads to it crowd sourcing equity

kind of campaign where individuals with

as little as four hundred and eighty

dollars can actually change the world

and well I finally stepped back and

realized with entrepreneurial minded

people coming to me that and and you

understand this with YouTube’s internet

platform but to get to the millions of

people who need this we have to do

something beyond just an individual

doctors clinic all right so now the

strategy here is if you can’t lead from

the top what you do is you get footholds

in all the different clinics so the

business model at which you can get to

at the heel clinics slash offering site

it’s all all in there at your leisure

you can look through your your

satisfaction but the business model is

we go in and get little footholds and

clinics we rent space and we do the

practice within a clinic that wants it

for their patients so there it doesn’t

have to be clinic policy change and you

don’t have to go against the guidelines

and all this is so it’s kind of like the

metaphor is like putting a Starbucks or

a coffee shop within a target shopping

center so established practice already

as you plug into a stylish practice and

then they want it for their patients and

then you’re gonna be

raining the doctor no well so no we we

trained our own people and we’re at

right at the moment we’re using nurse

practitioners and pas the different

states allow it less expensive yeah and

they can be trained very well in a very

focused practice I believe and do a very

safe job I’ve worked with lots of pas

and nurse practitioners over the years

so actually we don’t train the doctor in

the clinic the doctor just wants it for

their patients they realize that they

can’t do it themselves so it’s like

Target or a big store of benefits they

have a coffee shop there because more

people will come in they want coffee

they get the benefit and yet they don’t

have to make the coffee so they’re

friendly at least they’re introduced to

it and I think as a first step this is

gonna be the desk because they’re going

to see the results they’re gonna go wow

I need to know more about I need to get

involved well then that’s what’s

happened in my area most doctors turn or

become interested when we share patients

right it’s almost like there’s a

intellectual lazy like people are numb

doctors are numb to the science that’s

presented right and what they but they

do value what happens right in front of

them yes so the more and more that we

share patients and show what kedo can do

that’s how the grassroots can change the

system and so I’ve given up on going in

change the system from above and then

what’s the policy gonna be you’re gonna

help you believe that which is against

the guideline no you don’t have to do

any of that so it’s like establishing a

little little beach Aikido friendly beat

heads if you will I think that’s

brilliant I think that is I see that as

being and the wave of the future is

gonna happen and I’m glad someone’s

doing that I just seem it’s a lot of

work and I so I’d appreciate you

investing more energy in that can’t stop

it now with the mission so yeah right

and you you have a lot of credibility

and research so that’s gonna be exciting

you also I think in your fourth clinic

or I was reading the website there was a

large

group of Doc’s that are gonna be

involved in this in one of your clinics

or was it a university or what was it

you know so our optimal place to go is a

multi-specialty clinic where there might

be 50 doctors 50 a hundred doctors you

know 50 of them are internal medicine

diabetes the bread and butter medical

issues today

well not bread and cheese and butter

the conditions are diabetes and obesity

so an internist can’t fix that they just

give drugs and so a multi-specialty

clinic will send all of their patients

to the healed clinic that would call it

the heal clinics a chi al for healthier

eating and living coming out and healing

but so they they’ll send all other

patients so that for the heal clinic if

you put it in the right spot there’s

actually no need for marketing because

all of the doctors want the clinic there

and they’re gonna send their patients

there because they want it for their

patients so we don’t actually teach all

the doctors in the multi-specialty

clinic but that becomes the referral

source to populate the business for the

business model I think it would be great

because I would like to even post on the

website like just a list of all the

different class you can go to if you’re

in that area but we need someone in

Virginia yeah I think you also have a

lot of connections to other medical

doctors like even cardiologists and

people that are doing keto and different

specialties I mean yeah you’re I think I

don’t know where I saw it that I was I

was kind of Wow there’s this

cardiologist oh that was on your um your

facebook on there’s different videos

there was cardiologists using keynote as

fasiqun Aachen that was you know and I

have to just also credit you for putting

together the doctor birth keto Health

Summit in October just like the last

October because you brought Dave Feldman

and Ivor Cummins who speak a lot about

the cholesterol and so the cardiologists

are all up in arms the old cardiologists

because the total cholesterol and the

LDL can look worse

but the new way to look at a lipid

profile looking at the triglyceride and

the good HDL cholesterol actually just

about all the time someone on a keto

diet it looks better so yeah but there

are some established cardiologists who

are speaking out about this now you know

how Iver Cummins and dave pelman are not

medically established folks they’re kind

of critics from the outside critiquing

what the medical world has done and so

dr. Eric thorne in Northern Virginia is

a cardiologist who uses this in his

practice and talks about it and dr.

nadir Ali is in Houston at the

University of Houston

then Brent sure SH er is a cardiologist

in Southern California but you know

these are individuals who are just

speaking out you know it’s showing data

but having the ability to get beyond the

you know it’s almost been like a taboo

for cardiologists to say anything other

than do a low-fat diet and and so

they’ve broken out of the mold and I

just don’t see any academics in the u.s.

there was a conference that I went to in

Toronto put on by a Canadian cardiology

Association and we had a workshop there

dr. Blair O’Neill is the past president

of that Association had all those

tremendous success on his own which is

usually what happens the story behind

this and then he asked me to come give a

workshop at the cardiology meeting in

Toronto and this just happened you know

six weeks ago and you know standing room

only

the doctors are the young doctors are on

to this I mean they don’t have that old

I’m afraid of the fat what am I going to

do they want to do what works but

cardiology as that’s not like the last

vestige of you know when what about that

LDL you know now two-thirds of the time

it gets better but one 2/3 of the time

we’re doing that well you need to do the

small LDL large LDL and even now I just

look at the triglyceride and HDL as the

main factors and the lipid profile

but so cardio they’ll come around but um

they’re there again they’re drug focused

and like most medical doctors today it’s

it’s medication focused right well this

has been very enlightening guys if you

would like to spread a good message if

you’d like to learn more about this

these heal clinics I put a link down

below check it out

look at it read it and get involved it’s

it’s a worthy cause and thank you so

much doc for being out here and uh my

pleasure

yep okay but keep up with dude doing

Thanks

alright have a great great day